Why hasn't Berrios been called back up?

[alarp33]

 

We all saw what happened to Berrios and Meyers @ Houston and it was really unfair.  No sense letting them get destroyed.

 

 

I saw Berrios strike out 8 in 5.1 innings in Houston, how was that unfair? 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

As I look at the trades going down I keep wondering why the Twins continue to be one of the last to consider a trade.   Its time to move our pitchers before all the other options have fallen in place and our negotiation strength is reduced. 

The Twins probably aren't the last to consider a trade this year -- it's far more likely other teams are considering the Twins assets last.  Seriously, why would you pay even a dime to acquire Nolasco or Milone before you're absolutely sure you can't get anyone better before August 1st?  Especially since Nolasco and Milone are likely available any time up until September 1st...

 

It's a little less clear on the position player side, although teams have plenty of reason to wait on both Suzuki (Lucroy, Norris, etc.) and Nunez too.

[kab21]

There is actually a different reason to wait until after the deadline on DFA'ing Nolasco or Millone. If the team finds a good deal for Santana (or even Gibson) then the Twins would lose 2 starters in a week and need 2 pitchers from AAA.

 

I hate Nolasco with the fury of a 1000 suns but there is a whole lot of mediocrity in AA/AAA. Things can actually get worse for the Twins this year. It isn't always a great idea to DFA a mediocre veteran if you are rebuilding. This team doesn't need to see anymore of Pat Dean either.

 

This is one reason that I wouldn't deal Santana just to clear his contract unless there was something decent in return.

[ThejacKmp]

 

Absolutely trying to build trade value on Nolasco and Millone...probably should've figured a way to avoid throwing them against Boston.  Should have called up Berrios and had Tommy face a bad Atlanta team.  

 

I would say this is an insane concept, Milone or Nolasco having any value but read this. If they can get anything for either one of those guys, hallelujah.

[HitInAPinch]

 

I saw Berrios strike out 8 in 5.1 innings in Houston, how was that unfair? 

96 pitches, 5 walks, 2 HRs....

[Loosey]

 

I said when Berrios was sent down that he shouldn't be back up until August. It took him 5 starts (the 4th was great) to get things sorted out in AAA and now he is putting together a dominant run. You can argue that he should be up now but I wouldn't have called him up weeks ago after 4 great starts in a row.

 

I would have done the same with Buxton. He put together a great month and has looked awful at the plate again.

I don't agree with the Twins keeping Berrios down this long.  I think he should be up, especially in a losing season to get MLB experience. 

 

That being said if they kept him down this long because he threw 4 Non-MLB quality pitches out of 100 in his last start, why did they bring up Buxton so quickly?  He should have been left down there to rid himself of some bad habits, get used to the leg kick and shorten his swing. 

 

If the Twins would have played this out correctly they could be bringing up Buxton and Berrios on August 1 together. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Not sure, seems like August 2 is an artificial date to me, with no natural bearing on Berrios's development. If it's an administrative burden to promote him before that day, then that's another problem.

[kab21]

 

I don't agree with the Twins keeping Berrios down this long.  I think he should be up, especially in a losing season to get MLB experience. 

 

That being said if they kept him down this long because he threw 4 Non-MLB quality pitches out of 100 in his last start, why did they bring up Buxton so quickly?  He should have been left down there to rid himself of some bad habits, get used to the leg kick and shorten his swing. 

 

If the Twins would have played this out correctly they could be bringing up Buxton and Berrios on August 1 together. 

Like I said I would have kept Buxton down longer. 

 

Berrios threw 4 poor MLB starts and then threw 4/5 poor MiLB starts. He survived a few of them but I consider 5 BB's to be a poor start by a prospect in AAA.

[Vanimal46]

 

Not sure, seems like August 2 is an artificial date to me, with no natural bearing on Berrios's development. If it's an administrative burden to promote him before that day, then that's another problem.

Of course it's an artificial date. If some want to create a deadline on when it's allowed to be impatient about Berrios, fine. There's a lot that needs to be done this week in order to free Berrios from AAA. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

There is actually a different reason to wait until after the deadline on DFA'ing Nolasco or Millone. If the team finds a good deal for Santana (or even Gibson) then the Twins would lose 2 starters in a week and need 2 pitchers from AAA.

Not really.  If a deal emerges for Santana or Gibson this week, the team can afford to hang on to Nolasco and Milone longer.  The only reason those guys need to be demoted or DFA'd come August 2nd is to make room for Berrios without taking reps away from Duffey.  Once a spot is cleared otherwise, they might as well keep Nolasco and Milone longer and hope they recover more value.

[Major League Ready]

 

You didn't answer my question whatsoever.
What has Duffey done to stay in the rotation?
Also, Milone and Nolasco are probably more likely to be 8/31 trade candidates, not 8/1 candidates.
When the rotation stays the same on 8/2 then is it ok to make room for Berrios? And if so, why is it suddenly fair to do it to them then, and not now?

Because you don't understand the answer does not mean I did not answer your question.  Here is what I can tell you for absolute certain ... If a mid-level manager who worked for my organization did something like this I would make sure that his boss explained why it is a very bad practice to make a major decision or take action when we are about to be in a position where we have better information and are in a better position to take said action.  I would also instruct his boss to monitor that person to see if they continued to demonstrate poor decision making.  If a member of senior management did something this impetuous more than once, it would likely be a resume generating event.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Because you don't understand the answer does not mean I did not answer your question.  Here is what I can tell you for absolute certain ... If a mid-level manager who worked for my organization did something like this I would make sure that his boss explained why it is a very bad practice to make a major decision or take action when we are about to be in a position where we have better information and are in a better position to take said action.  I would also instruct his boss to monitor that person to see if they continued to demonstrate poor decision making.  If a member of senior management did something this impetuous more than once, it would likely be a resume generating event.

 

I'm a big fan of accountability. I'm not sure we agree that Berrios can't be up right now ..... but at least you are consistent in your belief here.

[kab21]

 

Not really.  If a deal emerges for Santana or Gibson this week, the team can afford to hang on to Nolasco and Milone longer.  The only reason those guys need to be demoted or DFA'd come August 2nd is to make room for Berrios without taking reps away from Duffey.  Once a spot is cleared otherwise, they might as well keep Nolasco and Milone longer and hope they recover more value.

Most of the board is saying that Nolasco or Milone can be DFA'd at anytime and should have already been DFA'd. It doesn't work DFA them and then trade Santana. That way you lose both of them from the rotation.

 

But nobody should be under any illusions that they will have any more or less trade value if they stay in the rotation.

[Major League Ready]

 

So, Houston calling up Bregman proves they are incompetent leaders? I'm just trying to understand if calling up any player at this time is conclusive prove that the team doing that is full of incompetence. 

Do you really think this is even a remotely parallel situation.  Let's list just a few of the differences.

 

1.  Houston is in contention

2. They are Buyers not sellers.  Therefore this is no different than them trading a prospect for someone who will help them right now.  This prospect just happens to be good enough that they expect immediate impact like we expected and got from Sano.

3. He is abandoning his natural position to fit into the team.

4.  This is not going to be undone in a week which in itself makes this a very different scenario.

 

So, no, I would say that the situations are so different as to offer no parallel comparison. I can only conclude you did not attempt to look at this in an unbiased manner when you offer an example that is so vastly different.  I will jump to your side of this argument in about a week.  However, right now, it would be exceptionally poor management practice to make a move.

[alarp33]

 

Because you don't understand the answer does not mean I did not answer your question.  Here is what I can tell you for absolute certain ... If a mid-level manager who worked for my organization did something like this I would make sure that his boss explained why it is a very bad practice to make a major decision or take action when we are about to be in a position where we have better information and are in a better position to take said action.  I would also instruct his boss to monitor that person to see if they continued to demonstrate poor decision making.  If a member of senior management did something this impetuous more than once, it would likely be a resume generating event.

 

This is really hard to comprehend.  What does your organization have to do with Jose Berrios still being in AAA?

[jorgenswest]

I don't think it matters long term for his development whether he came up after the all star break, today, next week or September 1st. All will allow him a chance to have some success going into the off season.

 

I do think it is important that he ends the season with a healthy arm. High pitch count innings are stressful on an arm. In his first go around he averaged over 21 pitches an inning. Molitor will have to monitor this carefully.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Do you really think this is even a remotely parallel situation.  Let's list just a few of the differences.

 

1.  Houston is in contention

2. They are Buyers not sellers.  Therefore this is no different than them trading a prospect for someone who will help them right now.  This prospect just happens to be good enough that they expect immediate impact like we expected and got from Sano.

3. He is abandoning his natural position to fit into the team.

4.  This is not going to be undone in a week which in itself makes this a very different scenario.

 

So, no, I would say that the situations are so different as to offer no parallel comparison. I can only conclude you did not attempt to look at this in an unbiased manner when you offer an example that is so vastly different.  I will jump to your side of this argument in about a week.  However, right now, it would be exceptionally poor management practice to make a move.

 

Seems like a lot of teams, even ones not in contention who are sellers, are making transactions in the last week.....

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/transactions/#month=7&year=2016

 

[lukeduke1980]

 

I would say this is an insane concept, Milone or Nolasco having any value but read this. If they can get anything for either one of those guys, hallelujah.

Oh no one disagrees - the whole point of this thread is why the Minnesota Twins and Rob Antony have kept Tom Milone and Rick Nolasco in the rotation and Jose Berrios is in AAA.  Insane to get value back?  Yes.  We'll see what happens in the next 5 days.

[Major League Ready]

 

This is really hard to comprehend.  What does your organization have to do with Jose Berrios still being in AAA?The entire time I have bI am drawing a parallel to

Because the point I have made since the start of this debate is that making a decision or taking action when you know that things are going to change is bad management practice.  It does not matter if it is in MLB or a company that sells widgets.  The point is also that many people here want to evaluate management practices when they don't understand something this basic.  Using my organization as an example was simply making an example that is valid to any other organization. 

[tobi0040]

I don't think it matters long term for his development whether he came up after the all star break, today, next week or September 1st. All will allow him a chance to have some success going into the off season.

 

I do think it is important that he ends the season with a healthy arm. High pitch count innings are stressful on an arm. In his first go around he averaged over 21 pitches an inning. Molitor will have to monitor this carefully.

I wouldn’t be too worried about over-using the bullpen though. I would be shocked if more than three of these relievers were with the Twins in June of 2017.

 

You maybe right that years from now, this won’t make much of a difference for his development. But we have seen adjustment periods for starting pitchers. Two that come to mind are Kyle Gibson and Trevor May. Sometimes it takes 10-25 starts to adjust to the big leagues. May to September of this year was the perfect time to get those starts out of the way. Instead they will bleed into next year for literally no reason whatsoever.

 

Bad results and sound process is something I can stomach in short amounts. Bad results and bad process is something I have no patience for.

[alarp33]

 

Because the point I have made since the start of this debate is that making a decision or taking action when you know that things are going to change is bad management practice.  It does not matter if it is in MLB or a company that sells widgets.  The point is also that many people here want to evaluate management practices when they don't understand something this basic.  Using my organization as an example was simply making an example that is valid to any other organization. 

 

"Making a decision or taking action when you know that things are going to change"?

 

That sentence alone doesn't make any sense.  Whatever parallel you are trying to draw to the business world is failing.  

 

I'm curious when you think transactions are acceptable, because something is always going to change on a Major League roster. There are always deadlines, etc. 

 

[Major League Ready]

 

 

Seems like a lot of teams, even ones not in contention who are sellers, are making transactions in the last week.....

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/transactions/#month=7&year=2016

Now you are just grasping at straws.  Are you really say, that the premise I am advocating here is faulty.  Do you really believe this team should be moving around pieces this week when it is very likely to change next week.  What's the benefit.  One game at the MLB level for Berrios.  You are going to jack around someone else in this manner for one start.

 

I would add you are making a giant assumption that Berrios is ready by looking at statistics.  I seriously doubt you have seen him in person.  Keep in mind Milone had better stats Berrios so stats are an iffy proposition when making these decisions.  We also don't know what the coaches are saying.  Maybe they made a change in Berrios mechanics that is really helping him but the coaches want another week or two of reps under the supervision of the coach that implemented these changes.  Of course, there are any number of other things potentially influencing this.  Yet, you and others want to believe you have a superior understanding of the situation and what should be done.  I realize this delusion of grandeur is part of being of fan let's get real.  People here look at stats and think they have a better understanding of what should be done than people that have more information, experience, and credentials. 

[Kwak]

Duffey and Berrios are not linked. The issue is Berrios and (Nolasco  or Milone) in the rotation. Milone has already passed through waivers, he can be moved without issue through August 31. Nolasco would have to be waived first. Waiting until August 2 to make a change to promote Berrios isn't significant to Berrios' development--it's only one game!

 

I disagree with the notion that starts for Duffey are a waste yet are vital for Berrios. This is a lost season and this is exactly the time to provide starts for prospects to help their development (or seal their doom). If berrios needs innings (Yes!) so does Duffey. The Twins make plenty of allowances for position players to develop (through failure) the same should apply to pitchers. Read the Sano 1B/DH thread and not only are nearly all posters ceding the rest of 2016 to starting Sano at 3B (despite his obvious floundering) many are even advocating all of the 2017 season at 3B--even if he still flounders! The same patience can be extended to Duffey (rest of 2016), but the 2017 season will be a competition of many for a spot in the rotation.

[Major League Ready]

 

 

"Making a decision or taking action when you know that things are going to change"?

 

That sentence alone doesn't make any sense.  Whatever parallel you are trying to draw to the business world is failing.  

 

I'm curious when you think transactions are acceptable, because something is always going to change on a Major League roster. There are always deadlines, etc. 

Are you saying you think the week before deadline for a team that is an obvious seller is the same as any other time of the year?

[tobi0040]

To be fair, they've done all right in some areas of the roster, like Kepler, Buxton, Rosario, and Vargas.  And they don't have a lot of options at catcher (although they largely have themselves to blame for that).

 

But the rotation plan and certain bullpen choices the past couple months definitely leave something to be desired.

Yeah, I guess I don't understand why we have a completely different set of rules for pitchers. As others have pointed out, Berrios had 12 k's per 9 up here. He was walking a lot of guys, but he never had that issue in the minors over any period of time, so that was likely going to improve.

 

You certainly could take more positives away from his first four starts than you could Buxton's first 150 AB's. Yet the approach with Buxton seems to be, we think he is going go be good, we are terrible this year, and he has nothing left to prove in AAA, so let him take his lumps up here.

 

That should be the same process for Berrios and Chargois.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Most of the board is saying that Nolasco or Milone can be DFA'd at anytime and should have already been DFA'd. It doesn't work DFA them and then trade Santana. That way you lose both of them from the rotation.

Most of the board is simply saying that Berrios should have been promoted already.  It is not necessary to DFA Nolasco or Milone to do that, one of them could simply have been demoted to the bullpen, ready to step back into the rotation should a Santana or Gibson trade opportunity arise (or traded themselves in August if another team is desperate enough).

 

Also, technically DFA doesn't mean Milone is necessarily lost.  If Milone cleared waivers, he still doesn't have enough service time refuse an outright assignment to AAA without forfeiting his remaining salary, just like why he "had" to accept the outright assignment earlier this season.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I don't think it matters long term for his development whether he came up after the all star break, today, next week or September 1st. All will allow him a chance to have some success going into the off season.

I do think it is important that he ends the season with a healthy arm. High pitch count innings are stressful on an arm. In his first go around he averaged over 21 pitches an inning. Molitor will have to monitor this carefully.

And those two goals (have some MLB success, but protect his arm) are probably easiest to accomplish with an earlier promotion.  If he comes up August 1st, or September 1st, there is that much more pressure to pitch him, as opposed to having come up on July 1st, where the Twins could have afforded to let him skip starts or rest an injury while still getting him an adequate amount of MLB experience.

[alarp33]

 

Are you saying you think the week before deadline for a team that is an obvious seller is the same as any other time of the year?

 

Umm, in regards to Berrios? Yes.  The team has 3 pitchers getting shelled every time out, very easy to find a spot for him this week. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Now you are just grasping at straws.  Are you really say, that the premise I am advocating here is faulty.  Do you really believe this team should be moving around pieces this week when it is very likely to change next week.  What's the benefit.  One game at the MLB level for Berrios.  You are going to jack around someone else in this manner for one start.

 

I would add you are making a giant assumption that Berrios is ready by looking at statistics.  I seriously doubt you have seen him in person.  Keep in mind Milone had better stats Berrios so stats are an iffy proposition when making these decisions.  We also don't know what the coaches are saying.  Maybe they made a change in Berrios mechanics that is really helping him but the coaches want another week or two of reps under the supervision of the coach that implemented these changes.  Of course, there are any number of other things potentially influencing this.  Yet, you and others want to believe you have a superior understanding of the situation and what should be done.  I realize this delusion of grandeur is part of being of fan let's get real.  People here look at stats and think they have a better understanding of what should be done than people that have more information, experience, and credentials. 

 

Classic appeal to authority. Are you saying we should not be having these discussions at all? I don't get your post here at all. 

 

I am not claiming any special, superior, knowledge. I never have claimed to be superior to others in how I look at this stuff. This is a place to have fun baseball conversations, about our favorite team. 

 

As for "one start"......I suppose at this point, fine. Doesn't explain why he wasn't up 1-3 starts ago. Even Seth posted it was time a week ago......plenty of former FO people on the internet have said the same thing.

 

In the words of one of my favorite characters ever, "lighten up Francis" is a motto I try to live by here, and not to take these conversations seriously or personally. So, I participate in what should be fun conversations about what we think the Twins should do......not to say we are right or not, but to have fun talking about baseball and what we would do. Some people take those conversations much more seriously and personally.

 

You stated leadership would be incompetent to make moves right now. I pointed out that many, many, many teams are making moves right now. Therefore, it is not logically sufficient to say that making a move right now proves incompetence, unless you are saying all those teams are incompetent.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Milone has already passed through waivers, he can be moved without issue through August 31.

Different waivers.  Milone cleared non revocable outright assignment waivers back in May.  Revocable August trade waivers are different, and Milone would have to clear them separately in order to be dealt in August.