Castile shooting, police violence, race, etc side discussion

[Willihammer]

So as not to offend anyone else in the Tribue thread here is a side topic for additional discussion, background about the Castile shooting, the retribution in Dallas, police violence, race, etc.

Police scanner transcipt prior to the traffic stop:
http://www.kare11.com/mb/news/police-scanner-audio-1/267042738
 

 

“I’m going to stop a car,” the officer says on the recording. “I’m going to check IDs.  I have reason to pull it over.”

“The two occupants just look like people that were involved in a robbery,” the officer says. “The driver looks more like one of our suspects, just ‘cause of the wide set nose,” the officer continues.

 

News article on the Jul 2 robbery in question, including photo of perp:

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2016/07/05/lauderdale-armed-robbery/

[Mike Sixel]

I don't know how to respond to that w/o making a judgement that probably isn't fair.......

 

The events in Dallas are horrific. However, I truly believe they will continue to happen until there are substantive changes in police shootings and otherwise treating people of color very, very, differently than I am treated.

[PseudoSABR]

I think the public policy of 'rooting out crime' is part of the problem that leads to so many unnecessary deaths and confrontations.  

 

The notion that because a citizen looks like a suspected criminal somehow provides context for that citizens death is at the outset extremely problematic.  

 

The problem is the police make the assumption that the citizen is the suspect (or a criminal), rather than an innocent person, and its that incorrect assumption that leads police to mis-evaluate the risk of harm to themselves.  It's these assumptions that short-circuit our legal system, and empower the cop to essentially be judge, jury, and executioner. 

 

The mindset of police officers needs to cease to be that the person they are interacting with may be criminal, may be a suspect of another crime or may be a danger to themselves.  Such assumptions certainly may help in 'rooting out crime' or compiling tough-on crime data, but they also lead to death, as well as create a culture of suspicion and divide.   

[Craig Arko]

So now that I've so rudely help cause the creation of a new thread, what to say in it?

 

Seeking some kind of legal/social solution is probably the real long-term solution, but I'm no good at that. Instead, I'm going to suggest a technological band aid.

 

Invest a buttload of money into producing the most effective non-lethal weapons possible, and distribute them to all domestic law enforcement agencies. Something so effective that it will become a superior choice to firearms. And can be produced with such an economy that even the gun industry realizes they can safely make a buck and starts to change production.

 

This is all because I have far more confidence in the ability to innovate technologically than to make social change. But the former is still just a band aid while the latter is put into action.

 

Never promised you a rose garden.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The problem is the police make the assumption that the citizen is the suspect (or a criminal), rather than an innocent person, and its that incorrect assumption that leads police to mis-evaluate the risk of harm to themselves.  It's these assumptions that short-circuit our legal system, and empower the cop to essentially be judge, jury, and executioner. 

 

I was trying to allude to this earlier, cops are as guilty of rushing to judgment as some are in the aftermath of these tragic events.  So I completely agree with this.  

 

I like what you posted about with Baltimore, that's a good step in regards to policing.

 

The even larger issue is the systemic racism and the consequences that stem from that.  Yes, race relations have generally been on the improvement path for awhile, but there are still lasting reprecussions from the generations that preceded it.  The judicial system is still absolutely racist and needs reform.  There are economic and educational disadvantages that still need more work.  Those injustices have created a kind of desperation and despair disproportionate in black communities.  Couple that with over-sentencing and misplaced drug war tactics and you have a recipe to create crime.  Too many on the right level the charge that crime is disproportionately black.  It is.  But not for the reasons they think.  It's disproportionate because we overcharge black men and women.  Because we offer their children no hope and no way out of poverty.  Criminal behavior is not more prevalent in black communities because people are black, but (and this is subtle, maybe, but changes things completely) by virtue of being black in a nation that still hasn't rectified a long history of racism.  

 

I know there are cops that get beaten down mentally by dealing with what they deal with every day and that colors their behavior, sometimes knowingly and sometimes not.  We can fix their protocols, but we may not fix their feelings until we aim even deeper.  Attack the real source of the problem - not the color of people's skin, but their oppression under poverty and mistreatment.

[biggentleben]

Last evening's events said a lot. A picture went on to national news of a suspect. Turns out that gentleman had absolutely nothing to do with the shooting. He handled things well because of how the Dallas PD handled their own mess up (admitting to trusting faulty sources and jumping the gun on releasing pictures). He even turned over the AR that he was carrying (legally, thanks to DERP Texas laws) as a point within the protest so as to not incite any fear.

 

A good citizen, mistaken for doing something bad, was immediately outed by numerous news sources once one person recognized him, however, and when an officer goes on a hunch, he/she needs to be damned sure about that hunch, especially before reacting with force!

[mikecgrimes]

I know people are upset about every police shooting justified or not, but unless we want Dallas to be the norm the anti police rhetoric needs to end (reminder I didn't say it needs to end I said things like Dallas will happen if it doesn't). This officer in Falcon Heights will be dealt with as the investigation sees fit. Sometimes the officers are justified sometimes they aren't. I understand people want the line for cops to be held accountable to be at different points and that's a difficult problem to deal with. As for the guy dragging a gun around downtown Dallas having his picture plastered all over the media that's the chance you take when you openly carry and a shooting takes place and it has nothing to do with race.

[Willihammer]

Right away its interesting that the woman thought they were pulled over for having a missing tail light and the police transcription says the reason for the stop was on suspicion of a robbery. I wonder how often this scenario plays out on a daily basis across the country, where a policeman approaches a someone about a minor offense because he fits a description of a suspect in a nearby/recent crime, but in fact has nothing to do with it. How often those situations escalate, and if there could be some adjustment to protocol that might de-escalate those situations. Like perhaps telling the person "we stopped you because you fit the description of a criminal suspect" instead of "we stopped you for (insert minor violation)." I wonder if that would elicit more positive reactions from people who are innocent and less confusion/ outrage at being stopped for chickensh- offenses. Also wonder if that would compromise officer safety when the suspect they are looking for is the one they've stopped, and is armed such as the case with the Lauderdale gas station robber.

[ashbury]

New hashtag, #widesetnose, in three... two... one...

 

/ edit - On reflection, that may sound flippant. It's the opposite, actually. That part of the transcript infuriates me.

[Brock Beauchamp]

New hashtag, #widesetnose, in three... two... one...

 

/ edit - On reflection, that may sound flippant. It's the opposite, actually. That part of the transcript infuriates me.

It's not flippant. That phrase stood out immediately and I wanted to scream "YOU MEAN BLACK, *******".

[ashbury]

It's not flippant. That phrase stood out immediately and I wanted to scream "YOU MEAN BLACK, *******".

Good. The following however is flippant.

 

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/75/pics/75iupdate4.jpg

 

Well, as the [1976] primaries approach, more and more varied candidates are joining the fight for the Democratic ticket. The latest entry is Senator Robert Byrd. [ reveal man posed with giant egg ] Byrd was once a member of the Ku Klux Klan, but says now that he deeply regrets that association. Byrd has been quoted as saying: "I don't judge a man by the color of his skin; I judge him according to the size of his nostrils."

[Willihammer]

 

It's not flippant. That phrase stood out immediately and I wanted to scream "YOU MEAN BLACK, *******".

So, you think the officer is this guy basically

http://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxngsktSvg1qc9u7w.jpg

 

I haven't actually met that level of racism in real life, have you? 

 

It does sound strange but I think the odds are better "wideset nose" means "wideset nose- for a black person." Sort of like when McNulty is trying to find Omar and he asks a bunch of kids if they've seen a "dark skinned guy with a scar." He didn't mean a black guy with a scar.

[glunn]

Moderator note -- please be respectful of other posters.

[Craig Arko]

[PseudoSABR]

Excellent article from a black ex-cop. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Excellent article from a black ex-cop.

So good.

[mikecgrimes]

Some of the other facebook live videos from his girlfriend speak directly to her Character and the sorts of things she does with a four year old in the car.  You can look this stuff up yourself I won't post the trash.  Come up with your own conclusions.  I will say this if you can't stop a car with her in it you can't protect children.

[Craig Arko]

Some of the other facebook live videos from his girlfriend speak directly to her Character and the sorts of things she does with a four year old in the car.  You can look this stuff up yourself I won't post the trash.  Come up with your own conclusions.  I will say this if you can't stop a car with her in it you can't protect children.

And does this justify the shooting, do you think?

[Willihammer]

 

Excellent article from a black ex-cop. 

Provocative read. Don't know if we can generalize that 15-70-15 ratio to the St Anthony police department, or where officer Yanez would fall along that spectrum, but something to think about for sure.

[Willihammer]

Strib: Castile in fact had a permit to carry

 

http://www.startribune.com/philando-castile-had-permit-to-carry-gun/386054481/

 

Officer Yanez's lawyer: Office reacted to gun, not race.

 

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/lawyer-officer-who-shot-philando-castile-case-has-nothing-do-n606471

[TheLeviathan]

 

Some of the other facebook live videos from his girlfriend speak directly to her Character and the sorts of things she does with a four year old in the car.  You can look this stuff up yourself I won't post the trash.  Come up with your own conclusions.  I will say this if you can't stop a car with her in it you can't protect children.

 

What's the point of this post?  Honestly, what's the point?

[nicksaviking]

I know several local officers, and they are fantastic people and if they did something like this I'd be shocked to the point that I'd have to consider an ideological shift.

 

On the other hand, I remember three guys from school and another guy I worked with after school who all wanted to be police officers. All four of those guys were terrible people who craved either physical or verbal confrontation and wanted to be viewed as an Alpha at any cost.

 

I know most officers are great people and I suspect the academies try to weed out the kinds of guys I described above, but there is no doubt that a job where you get to carry a gun and exert your personal authority over everyone is an attractive job to some very awful individuals. Maybe academies need better evaluation, however it's possible that you can't get enough decent people to want to be a cop so some of these guys who profile as trouble are hired because the alternative is a short staff.

[TheLeviathan]

I think it's important to note nick, that you don't have to be a power hungry authoritarian in uniform for this to happen. Perfectly good people can struggle in the face of fear and adrenaline.

 

At the same time, that reason is only ever allowed to justify criminal behaviors when cops experience them. We need to hold officers to a high standard and rethink our approach to interactions so that good cops don't have to fight/flight through traffic stops and those they stop can stay safer. Everyone involved is a human who may not be at their best in a high tension situation, our procedures should be aimed at easing that as much as possible.

[Badsmerf]

Ok, ready to talk about this now. I live in northern Iowa, my wife is mixed. She is born and bred into white society, to the fact she often forgets she is colored. Our community is mostly white, but very welcoming. We see race issues from a different perspective.

 

First, body cameras need to become mandatory. Citizens need to have a source of protection against excessive use of force. It should no longer be a debate. Police officers still get the benefit of doubt in controversial situations. In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if the officers involved in the shooting in Louisiana are convicted since the man was obviously noncompliant and possessed a weapon illegally.

 

That brings me to my next point, which some may disagree. There is a cultural problem within urban communities, that teaches people noncomformity and unlawful behavior. The current system creates this cycle. Kids grow up knowing society expects them to be criminals, and every part of their life reinforces it. I don't know how to fix that without increasing the standard of living for these people.

[TheLeviathan]

 

That brings me to my next point, which some may disagree. There is a cultural problem within urban communities, that teaches people noncomformity and unlawful behavior. The current system creates this cycle. Kids grow up knowing society expects them to be criminals, and every part of their life reinforces it. I don't know how to fix that without increasing the standard of living for these people.

 

You're not wrong, but it is complicated.  You're also right about the solution, this is poverty and desperation manifesting, not something that is a consequence of race.  It appears as race because of the high poverty rates that still linger from generations of neglect.  In fact, this is where I find the most powerful justification for a basic income system.  (That and sweeping reforms about how we fund education)

[formerly33]

 

Some of the other facebook live videos from his girlfriend speak directly to her Character and the sorts of things she does with a four year old in the car.  You can look this stuff up yourself I won't post the trash.  Come up with your own conclusions.  I will say this if you can't stop a car with her in it you can't protect children.

Wow. Pray tell what this has to do with whether the shooting has anything to do with policy brutality and/or racism.

 

And if it isn't too much, allow me to ask you what was more damaging to the child, remaining in her mother's care with her father alive, or remaining in her mother's care after seeing her father killed before her eyes?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Some of the other facebook live videos from his girlfriend speak directly to her Character and the sorts of things she does with a four year old in the car.  You can look this stuff up yourself I won't post the trash.  Come up with your own conclusions.  I will say this if you can't stop a car with her in it you can't protect children.

That's a pretty obvious end-around you just tried to pull. What, pray tell, does her Facebook history have to do with someone getting shot in the passenger's seat?

 

Why are you attempting to assassinate her character? What motivated you to deflect attention away from the dead guy in the passenger seat?

 

I don't know anything about the woman. I found it strange that she decided to record a phone video as someone bled out in the passenger seat but that has NOTHING to do with the events that transpired during the shooting. She could be the devil. She could be a saint. She neither got shot nor pulled the trigger so. I. Don't. Care. About. Her.

 

Why do you?

[mikecgrimes]

 

And does this justify the shooting, do you think?

 

The only factors critical to that investigation is if he grabbed in the direction of his gun.  That investigation will happen.  As long as people are going to say those stops shouldn't happen that correction needs to be made.  Doing drugs with a kid in the car, it's all on video she put it on the internet.

 

[mikecgrimes]

 

What's the point of this post?  Honestly, what's the point?

 

A lot of people are saying officers shouldn't be allowed to make stops.  Clearly in this case it was important that she be stopped for the childs sake.  The aftermath of a legitimate stop will be investigated and they should be able to look at enough factors to put everything together.

[mikecgrimes]

 

 

Wow. Pray tell what this has to do with whether the shooting has anything to do with policy brutality and/or racism.

 

And if it isn't too much, allow me to ask you what was more damaging to the child, remaining in her mother's care with her father alive, or remaining in her mother's care after seeing her father killed before her eyes?

 

I don't know ask the 2 year old in North Minneapolis