Arcia Traded to the Rays

[beckmt]

There are Toronto, Boston, Baltimore, and other high-powered offenses.  In our division both Chicago and Detroit hit fairly well.  Molitor seems to have one set of relievers for close games and another set for the blowouts.  Bullpen management seems to have been an issue this year, but that is on the managers and the coaches, not the GM. Overuse of May and other relievers will haunt this team in other month, but that is a different post. 

When only certain relievers are trusted than you have other issues.  Arcia was only the tip of the iceberg and only a small tip. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Disclaimer: I am not defending Terry Ryan because we're way past that point, in my opinion.

 

But... His comments were pretty innocuous if you read the entire quote. It was more about shaking up the roster than anything Grossman had done to that point (comments which were made literally one day after Grossman was promoted to Minnesota).

 

"Not too long ago, somebody gets in touch with me and our scouting department and said Robbie Grossman would be OK,” Ryan said. “So we signed him and we were rewarded. These are types of things I need to be doing. We’re in dire straits here. This just isn’t going well at all. So I have to be prepared to change it up and move some pieces. Whether you call it shuffling the deck or shaking it up.

 

“Some people are calling it panic. I get that, OK. We’re in a mode here where I better be creative enough to do some things to help along the cause. We’re struggling to a point where we haven’t been able to right it. So I’m going to have to do some things.”

Ahh got it, thanks.

 

Hopefully Ryan feels he is past the point where he needs to put out fires or shake things up or turn this around for 2016. Can't complain about Buxton, Kepler, Berrios right now but it would be nice to put a plan in place for guys like Sano, May, Polanco, and whoever else isn't being served well right now.

[howieramone2]

 

Riiiiiiight.

 

Alex Meyer pitched 3.2 innings and started once, inexplicably getting the hook at the first sign of trouble.

 

JT Chargois pitched less than one inning (0.2) in Minnesota.

Meyer has pitched 4 times in The Show in the past 2 seasons, each time he pitched poorly. Speaking about using options wisely, good thing he wasn't brought up in 2014 when the fan board was screaming for him. If I'm not mistaken, he can still pitch poorly next season, and we don't have to Arcia him until 2018.

[DaveW]

Since the trade:

Arcia: 1.417 OPS. 2 doubles, 1 HR, 4 RBI.

 

Way to go Terry!

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Meyer has pitched 4 times in The Show in the past 2 seasons, each time he pitched poorly. Speaking about using options wisely, good thing he wasn't brought up in 2014 when the fan board was screaming for him. If I'm not mistaken, he can still pitch poorly next season, and we don't have to Arcia him until 2018.

Come on, Howie, you're reaching.

 

Alex Meyer has a total of 6.2 MLB innings across two seasons.

 

Neil Ramirez has 7.0 IP this season for the Twins, much less other teams.

[howieramone2]

 

Since the trade:

Arcia: 1.417 OPS. 2 doubles, 1 HR, 4 RBI.

 

Way to go Terry!

Maybe we will be talking about him 14 years from now, like David Ortiz. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Maybe we will be talking about him 14 years from now, like David Ortiz. 

 

Unlikely, I think we nearly all agree on that. Just like we all agree we want the Twins to be good again. Just like we all agree we remain excited about Sano. I'm sure there are other things too, probably how we feel about Nolasco.....probably lots people here agree on.

[beckmt]

 

1. Send down Ramirez

2. Ditto boshers

3. Ditto Rogers

4. Trade Abad

5. Option Buxton

6. Ditto Kintzler

7. Trade Jepsen

8. Option Park

But let's face it 1,2 are all that matter. Everything else is debatable as a best option, the first two are no brainers.

I would love to be in a league with you or be a GM in any type of league with you running a different club.  Wait and pounce on the mistakes because you are not patient. This is a long term process,  it may be 2 years before the starters with upside get here.

[alarp33]

 

I would love to be in a league with you or be a GM in any type of league with you running a different club.  Wait and pounce on the mistakes because you are not patient. This is a long term process,  it may be 2 years before the starters with upside get here.

 

Huh? You can't "pounce" on a player who is optioned to the minors.  

 

But if you could, good luck with your team that includes Boshers, Ramirez and Kintzler. That would be a force to be reckoned with!

[beckmt]

 

Huh? You can't "pounce" on a player who is optioned to the minors.  

 

But if you could, good luck with your team that includes Boshers, Ramirez and Kintzler. That would be a force to be reckoned with!

Only a few of the players mentioned can be optioned.  Most of the rest will need to be exposed to waivers.  Most of this much will not matter, but point come from many posts to just get rid of players for little or nothing.  Twins are just cycling through pitchers and seeing if any stick.  Same as I would do in this position. 

[jimmer]

 

we now judge players on 1 appearance?

Well, it depends on what your motivation is. Infinite faith in TR's decisions is all you need.

[DaveW]

 

Maybe we will be talking about him 14 years from now, like David Ortiz. 

Maybe!

 

But he doesn't need to become David Ortiz 2.0 for this to end up being a simply horrible and pointless trade. In fact, a couple of seasons with 25+ HR and a .800+ OPS would make it one of the dumber moves in all of baseball this decade!

[jimmer]

 

Maybe!

 

But he doesn't need to become David Ortiz 2.0 for this to end up being a simply horrible and pointless trade. In fact, a couple of seasons with 25+ HR and a .800+ OPS would make it one of the dumber moves in all of baseball this decade!

yeah, all he needs to really do is become a decent MLB player for this to be a horrible decision.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

yeah, all he needs to really do is become a decent MLB player for this to be a horrible decision.

All he needs to do is become a decent MLB strong side platoon for this to be a horrible decision.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Only a few of the players mentioned can be optioned.  Most of the rest will need to be exposed to waivers.  Most of this much will not matter, but point come from many posts to just get rid of players for little or nothing.  Twins are just cycling through pitchers and seeing if any stick.  Same as I would do in this position.

 

It makes no sense to me to continue cycling through pitchers like Neil Ramirez to see if he sticks. I am very much in the camp that says the Twins should have let a reliever go, instead of Arcia. Hoarding too many minor league free agent signings in the MLB bullpen also has a cascading effect on all the college relievers we have drafted, who in my opinion need to be promoted through the system at a much faster pace.

[beckmt]

 

It makes no sense to me to continue cycling through pitchers like Neil Ramirez to see if he sticks. I am very much in the camp that says the Twins should have let a reliever go, instead of Arcia. Hoarding too many minor league free agent signings in the MLB bullpen also has a cascading effect on all the college relievers we have drafted, who in my opinion need to be promoted through the system at a much faster pace.

There is also the issue of building the confidence of the players involved.  Most of the players in the majors at this time probably do not need to be part of this discussion.  Twins do not need to break players before they can be used.  They probably broke Arcia, which is why he needed a new start.  Loss of confidence is a big thing.  Twins probably want to keep most of the future players away from this year until September or at least August when some of the negatives are gone.  Need to find if any of this bullpen should be here over the next few years.

[TheLeviathan]

 

we now judge players on 1 appearance?

 

Yup, but GMs get at least 3 decades.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I would love to be in a league with you or be a GM in any type of league with you running a different club.  Wait and pounce on the mistakes because you are not patient. This is a long term process,  it may be 2 years before the starters with upside get here.

 

I share the same sentiment.  Pounce on the Buddy Boshers of the world all you want.  Neil Ramirez too.

 

I get Arcia and you can have them.  How's that same line of thinking working out for Mr. Ryan?  Seems strange to crawl into bed with that mentality right now.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 Need to find if any of this bullpen should be here over the next few years.

 

You know what would help your argument?

 

If they guys you are so adverse to dropping were actually pitching.....

[alarp33]

 

I share the same sentiment.  Pounce on the Buddy Boshers of the world all you want.  Neil Ramirez too.

 

I get Arcia and you can have them.  How's that same line of thinking working out for Mr. Ryan?  Seems strange to crawl into bed with that mentality right now.

 

Who is getting Danny Santana? I need to know which team has a "Danny Santana pinch running appearance" hammer to drop.  

[SwainZag]

 

There is also the issue of building the confidence of the players involved.  Most of the players in the majors at this time probably do not need to be part of this discussion.  Twins do not need to break players before they can be used.  They probably broke Arcia, which is why he needed a new start.  Loss of confidence is a big thing.  Twins probably want to keep most of the future players away from this year until September or at least August when some of the negatives are gone.  Need to find if any of this bullpen should be here over the next few years.

 

If the Twins "broke" Arcia, what does it say about his character?  He was given a chance last year, didn't play well, got hurt and then flailed in AAA all year.  You would think instead of being "broken" he would have seized that opportunity, showed the team he belonged on the big club and worked his way back up.  I am tired of hearing the excuses for players that the front office made them afraid, made them press, etc and forced bad results.  

 

If Arcia would have looked like the part of a "middle of the order, 30 HR bat" he wouldn't have hit under .200 and had a slugging percentage of .372 in over 300 PA in AAA last year.  At some point players have to produce. I wish Oswaldo the best, but he really didn't do himself many favors the last year and a half.

[Major League Ready]

 

There is a lot here, but the one I want to ask about is......why was him staying and Park going to AAA not an option, or am I reading your post incorrectly?

Absolutely it was an option.  Probably the one I would have chosen.  The point was that the choice was never between Arcia and Santana.  Your point does not oppose what I am saying at all.  In fact, it supports what I am saying.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Absolutely it was an option.  Probably the one I would have chosen.  The point was that the choice was never between Arcia and Santana.  Your point does not oppose what I am saying at all.  In fact, it supports what I am saying.

 

got it, thanks,

[Mr. Brooks]

If the Twins "broke" Arcia, what does it say about his character? He was given a chance last year, didn't play well, got hurt and then flailed in AAA all year. You would think instead of being "broken" he would have seized that opportunity, showed the team he belonged on the big club and worked his way back up. I am tired of hearing the excuses for players that the front office made them afraid, made them press, etc and forced bad results.

 

If Arcia would have looked like the part of a "middle of the order, 30 HR bat" he wouldn't have hit under .200 and had a slugging percentage of .372 in over 300 PA in AAA last year. At some point players have to produce. I wish Oswaldo the best, but he really didn't do himself many favors the last year and a half.

Have you considered the possibility that Arcia was playing hurt last year?

[Major League Ready]

 

got it, thanks,

 

I did not think much beyond the choice was not Santana or Arcia.  At least not if you want to start progressing toward a functional product.  After giving just a little thought.  Your solution seems like the logical choice to me.  The velocity and movement is still present in many cases in AAA.  That would give Park a chance to adjust with less pressure and Arcia gets his chance extended.  The only problem with this discussion is that we don't know the whole story.  It's hard to draw a conclusion when we don't know everything.  Maybe Arcia had become disruptive and they did not want him around the young players.  Who knows?  There could be a number of other factors.

 

Maybe, they are just want to move toward solidifying an OF of Buxton / Kepler / Rosario and Grossman.  I would be ok with them rolling with that group for the rest of the year.  That way they could act accordingly if that group or a member of that group was more suspect than we believe.  I would be ok with them deciding to let Buxton figure it out at the MLB level.  I dont see a reason to mess with Kepler at this point and we need to find out if Rosario can demonstrate a reasonable approach at the plate.  That has to be demonstrated at this level but I also would not bring him back until he showed a better approach at AAA.  I dont think we can really tell that by the box scores.  At least not unless the BB percentage goes way up.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I did not think much beyond the choice was not Santana or Arcia.  At least not if you want to start progressing toward a functional product.  After giving just a little thought.  Your solution seems like the logical choice to me.  The velocity and movement is still present in many cases in AAA.  That would give Park a chance to adjust with less pressure and Arcia gets his chance extended.  The only problem with this discussion is that we don't know the whole story.  It's hard to draw a conclusion when we don't know everything.  Maybe Arcia had become disruptive and they did not want him around the young players.  Who knows?  There could be a number of other factors.

 

Maybe, they are just want to move toward solidifying an OF of Buxton / Kepler / Rosario and Grossman.  I would be ok with them rolling with that group for the rest of the year.  That way they could act accordingly if that group or a member of that group was more suspect than we believe.  I would be ok with them deciding to let Buxton figure it out at the MLB level.  I dont see a reason to mess with Kepler at this point and we need to find out if Rosario can demonstrate a reasonable approach at the plate.  That has to be demonstrated at this level but I also would not bring him back until he showed a better approach at AAA.  I dont think we can really tell that by the box scores.  At least not unless the BB percentage goes way up.

 

Right, we don't know the context of any individual decision......nor are we in the clubhouse. I get all that, and agree. My lens is clearly looking thru my belief the FO has largely failed lately, so I question every move. I get that's a weakness in my ability to be objective right now.....

[scottz]

 

Neil Ramirez has pitched once since June 17

 

I declare this point irrelevant unless you also post the box score.

[beckmt]

 

If the Twins "broke" Arcia, what does it say about his character?  He was given a chance last year, didn't play well, got hurt and then flailed in AAA all year.  You would think instead of being "broken" he would have seized that opportunity, showed the team he belonged on the big club and worked his way back up.  I am tired of hearing the excuses for players that the front office made them afraid, made them press, etc and forced bad results.  

 

If Arcia would have looked like the part of a "middle of the order, 30 HR bat" he wouldn't have hit under .200 and had a slugging percentage of .372 in over 300 PA in AAA last year.  At some point players have to produce. I wish Oswaldo the best, but he really didn't do himself many favors the last year and a half.

I had this happen to me almost 40 years ago.  Also have seen this as I am in process of replacing a teammate who is causing the same issue by constantly being critical.  Thought processes can be messed up by constant criticism. I am from on of the toughest groups to break around. 

Sometimes people need a new start.  That issue falls on managers and coaches and why I feel that Twins field staff needs an overhall, starting with the manager.

[scottz]

 

If the Twins "broke" Arcia, what does it say about his character?  He was given a chance last year, didn't play well, got hurt and then flailed in AAA all year....

I don't think this is the right sequence. I think he was given a chance, started terribly (.184/.256/.263 - OPS .519 through 4/18) picked it up some (.276/.338/.379 - OPS .718 through 5/3), then got hurt, and then flailed in AAA all year.

 

Also, "given a chance" means that he had 65 PAs before getting injured. And yes, I know Rosario forced the issue last year while Arcia never recovered his season. But I don't think that his character should be challenged based on the small set of debatable facts listed. 

 

 

 

[gil4]

 

We all wish Arcia well, but he could well make Sano look like a good outfielder,

 

Nobody could do that.  I still think he could be adequate, given more playing time and more experience.  He has some limitations with the physical tools, but I always thought he could get quite a bit better with experience.  I don't see much hope for Sano in the outfield.