Arcia Traded to the Rays

[TheLeviathan]

 

True, but if anyone wants a lesson why patience is a virtue, set an advanced search on TD between 5/20-5/30 of 2013 and search "Joe Benson".

Lots of embarrassing posts in there, some from the same people using SSSS to back their argument today.

Yeah, the decision was *maybe* bad asset management but only if Arcia becomes an actual asset. What pissed me off is how UNNECESSARY it was at the time. This organization doesn't seem to have any direction.

 

The fact that it was unnecessary is precisely why it's bad management.  The outcome need not confirm it for the process to be flawed.  

 

To go a bit further,if you make bad roster decisions to cut players, we need not look things up a decade later to decide if it was a mistake or not.  The factors here and now are more important than whatever happens going forward.

 

Whether Arcia becomes the next Benson, the next Ortiz, or something in the vast middle of that is irrelevant really.   This is about value and how you manage assets on the roster and we don't need the benefit of hindsight in 5 years to judge it now.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The fact that it was unnecessary is precisely why it's bad management. The outcome need not confirm it for the process to be flawed.

Eh, we're just arguing semantics at that point. I said bad asset management... But Arcia wasn't actually an asset. His value was non-existent. His production was way below average.

 

But bad roster management? Absolutely. No doubt.

 

Especially on a team slated to win 55 games. No reason not to keep a guy like that around to see what happens.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Regardless of the outcome with Arcia, the Twins decision was indefensible.  

It's positions like this that make for contentious, I told-you-so threads, or just shut down debate.

 

In a vacuum, I personally would have preferred a player like Arcia to say Santana, because he flashed big-splash potential two years ago.  But in the context that the Twins operate in, being heavy on butchers at the corners, and not much, esp. in the outfield, up the middle,  I understood DFAing Arcia, even if I wished the Twins would have operated differently throughout his tenure.   Mostly, I get stuck arguing against absolutism and certitude, and what I actually think falls to the wayside. 

 

That it's somehow permissible to continually update Arcia's box score tallies a mere week after the trade suggests that those people who disagreed with you should have shut up in the first place.  Well, if that was goal, it's been largely successful. 

 

(I'm painting with a broad brush here, and beyond this isolated comment, I really don't mean to ensnare you, Levi).

[TheLeviathan]

 

Eh, we're just arguing semantics at that point. I said bad asset management... But Arcia wasn't actually an asset. His value was non-existent. 

 

We're not arguing semantics.  We don't need a crystal ball about Arcia's future to judge asset management.  We also don't need positive or negative box scores for it.  A young player struggling does not immediately turn them into a dud

 

The team buried him in favor of Hunter and Robinson and a host of other people last year and years before.  Some of his lack of value is in how he was used.  

 

Either way, this team chose to keep a pile of faceless relievers over him.  Or refused to option a wide range of people who deserve it to keep him.  They put themselves in this position of their own choosing.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 

(I'm painting with a broad brush here, and beyond this isolated comment, I really don't mean to ensnare you, Levi).

 

Well, I'm ensnared.  Have you heard of Buddy Boshers?  He's one of those faceless late 20s guys in our bullpen.  There are like 4-5 more guys like that.  We chose to keep them.  All 8 of them in the bullpen.  

 

We also chose not to use these things called "options" on a number of deserving players.

 

So, please, if you're going to start preaching about absolutists posts, at least come at it better than this was some sort of "2 men enter, one man leaves" thing with Santana and Arcia.  It wasn't.

 

I'm past the point of hammering the poor decisions with Arcia.  I think we're well past the point when we need any more moves to criticize the FO.  We're saturated, so I'm not going to be posting box scores.  But then, I'm barely building up the will to check Twins box scores.

[Seth Stohs]

Out of options... clearly behind Kepler, Buxton and Grossman. Wasn't playing. Wasn't going to play much... and that's fine. Good for Arcia to be let go. He'll hit once in awhile, but generally, he'll be what he is. Like I wrote, maybe he becomes Danny Valencia in a few years. If so, that's fine.

[Brock Beauchamp]

We're not arguing semantics. We don't need a crystal ball about Arcia's future to judge asset management. We also don't need positive or negative box scores for it.

Oy. Come on, Levi... Now you *are* arguing semantics.

 

Assets have value. Arcia had no value, which is why he was traded for peanuts. He's a lottery ticket. No value today, future uncertain.

 

If he was actually an asset, Ryan could have traded him for something more than a pittance.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Oy. Come on, Levi... Now you *are* arguing semantics.

Assets have value. Arcia had no value, which is why he was traded for peanuts. He's a lottery ticket. No value today, future uncertain.

If he was actually an asset, Ryan could have traded him for something more than a pittance.

 

No, I'm annoyed you are trying to separate the last 5 minutes of Arcia as a Twin from the larger context.  Lottery tickets are still assets - long shots - but assets.  

 

When you're as poor off as the Twins, you should be hording lottery tickets and hoping whenever you can.  Not giving them away for something you have in abundance.  (Likely, cash)  Or prefer to keep you completely worthless and utterly replaceable 27 year old bullpen arms over the lottery ticket.  

 

It's indefensible.  Regardless of what Arcia does.

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

 

The fact that it was unnecessary is precisely why it's bad management.  The outcome need not confirm it for the process to be flawed.  

 

To go a bit further,if you make bad roster decisions to cut players, we need not look things up a decade later to decide if it was a mistake or not.  The factors here and now are more important than whatever happens going forward.

 

Whether Arcia becomes the next Benson, the next Ortiz, or something in the vast middle of that is irrelevant really.   This is about value and how you manage assets on the roster and we don't need the benefit of hindsight in 5 years to judge it now.

What, you mean the Twins don't have a recent reputation of selling low, and buying high on players?

[PseudoSABR]

 

Well, I'm ensnared.  Have you heard of Buddy Boshers?  [...]

 

So, please, if you're going to start preaching about absolutists posts, at least come at it better than this was some sort of "2 men enter, one man leaves" thing with Santana and Arcia.  It wasn't.

Look, I was intentionally trying to avoid having an argument on the merits because you're clearly not willing to have one, because as you've said, the other side is indefensible.  What could I possibly say that can counter such certitude? My guess: nothing.

 

The reality of Arcia's DFAing is far more complex than the facts we have to work with.  We don't know what the Twins know, and the Twins could be wrong on Arcia, but still have operated with a mere modicum of reasonableness.   That you can't even grant a modicum of reasonableness to whom those you disagree obscures whatever nuance could be had.  (And to be clear a modicum of reasonableness should not be the standard (and likely is not), but that's what I'm stuck arguing because you won't even grant me that.) 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

We can overreact to what Arcia has done in three games with the Rays, but after Robbie Grossman's first three games with the Twins, Terry Ryan said something to the effect of "we have been rewarded by him. These are the types of moves I need to be doing."

[TheLeviathan]

 

And to be clear a modicum of reasonableness should not be the standard (and likely is not), but that's what I'm stuck arguing because you won't even grant me that. 

 

No, I won't grant it.  I don't think there is a defense for this.  People are getting caught up in what they believe Arcia will or won't do.

 

I don't care.  It doesn't change the real problem.

 

And that problem gets ignored as we battle about him being Benson vs. Ortiz.  It doesn't matter.  We gave up an interesting lottery ticket for pocket change.  That's indefensible.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Arcia had no value, which is why he was traded for peanuts. He's a lottery ticket. No value today, future uncertain.

If he was actually an asset, Ryan could have traded him for something more than a pittance.

Disagree. Antony said multiple teams contacted him about Arcia. (I think the word he used was "folks" so interpret that how you may.)

 

We have no way of knowing if a team like Detroit offered a halfway decent minor leaguer for Arcia only to have the Twins give away Arcia to someone else simply to keep Arcia out of the division. A scenario like that doesn't seem like a stretch at all.

[PseudoSABR]

 

No, I won't grant it.  I don't think there is a defense for this.  People are getting caught up in what they believe Arcia will or won't do.

 

I don't care.  It doesn't change the real problem.

 

And that problem gets ignored as we battle about him being Benson vs. Ortiz.  It doesn't matter.  We gave up an interesting lottery ticket for pocket change.  That's indefensible.

Every team gives up lottery tickets in favor of playing time for other lottery tickets.  In other news, life is not fair.

 

And I'm glad we're at the point where "I don't care" and "It doesn't matter" become points towards the other side being indefensible.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

Every team gives up lottery tickets in favor of playing time for other lottery tickets.  In other news, life is not fair.

 

And I'm glad we're at the point where "I don't care" and "It doesn't matter" become points towards the other side being indefensible.  

 

Sorry, not all opinions are worth granting credit too.  I don't care what every other team does, I care what this team does.  

 

We could've sent down Park.  We could've sent down one of the 8 relievers we have.  We had quite a few options.  We weren't choosing between lottery tickets either.

 

We chose to give up a pretty nice lottery ticket.  In a season when we're on pace for over 100 losses.  It's not defensible.   Sorry, if you're on the other side of it, you're missing just how out of whack that thinking is. The process, the thinking, has to change.  Regardless of how Arcia turns out.

[PseudoSABR]

 

We can overreact to what Arcia has done in three games with the Rays, but after Robbie Grossman's first three games with the Twins, Terry Ryan said something to the effect of "we have been rewarded by him. These are the types of moves I need to be doing."

If the point is that TR needs to go, a point I happen to agree with, there's plenty of threads for that discussion.   

 

The argument against DFAing Arcia shouldn't be well TR is stupid, see.  

 

I think it's just too bad that every thread just turns into the see, look how stupid the Twins are...there's an interesting conversation to have, and I fell like we're not having it...

[PseudoSABR]

 

Sorry, not all opinions are worth granting credit too.  I don't care what every other team does, I care what this team does.  

 

We could've sent down Park.  We could've sent down one of the 8 relievers we have.  We had quite a few options.  We weren't choosing between lottery tickets either.

 

We chose to give up a pretty nice lottery ticket.  In a season when we're on pace for over 100 losses.  It's not defensible.   Sorry, if you're on the other side of it, you're missing just how out of whack that thinking is. The process, the thinking, has to change.  Regardless of how Arcia turns out.

As I just said above, if your point is that things need change, I'm on board.  That said, Arcia may have reasonably never been part of such change.  At some point you need to stop ignoring the issue with playing time; Arcia's roster spot was but a part of the problem (which he kept uselessly warm for months). 

 

(In general, and this is just a human thing, I'd refrain from designating yourself as the decider of worthwhile of opinions, you're just a flawed human like the rest of us, operating on limited knowledge, in limited context.)

[TheLeviathan]

 

As I just said above, if your point is that things need change, I'm on board.  That said, Arcia may have reasonably never been part of such change.  At some point you need to stop ignoring the issue with playing time, and stop focusing on a roster spot (which Arcia kept uselessly warm for months). 

 

(In general, and this is just a human thing, I'd refrain from designating yourself as the decider of worthwhile of opinions, you're just a flawed human like the rest of us, operating on limited knowledge, in limited context.)

 

The problem is, we aren't having that discussion.  The pro-Arcia people are declaring him Ortiz and the people wanting to shelter the FO are basically dismissing his future.  And it misses what matters.

 

His playing time, his roster spot, his place on the roster, his value within the organization, their self-awareness of their situation (seriously, Buddy Boshers or Arcia is not a "choice" one should even be considering.  It's a no brainer), and their inability to gauge upside is the problem.  So while I don't find the posting of box scores helpful, I find the idea that this was Santana vs. Arcia far more obnoxious.  Or excusing the playing time ceded to Robinson over Arcia.  Or anything else that distracts this from the real problem.

 

The real problem is this team prizes 27 year old nobody bullpen guys and a handful of cash more than a lottery ticket while they're on their way to 100+ losses.  Let's accept, that regardless of what you feel about Arcia, that's just not wise.  There's no good reason for it.  

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

If the point is that TR needs to go, a point I happen to agree with, there's plenty of threads for that discussion.   

 

The argument against DFAing Arcia shouldn't be well TR is stupid, see.  

 

I think it's just too bad that every thread just turns into the see, look how stupid the Twins are...there's an interesting conversation to have, and I fell like we're not having it...

I didn't intend to set off on another Ryan tangent and not once ever have I called him stupid.

 

If there was a deeper point I was trying to make, it was that the Twins front office seems just as desperate for something good to happen as Twins fans are. Thus both are citing small sample sizes with regard to Arcia and Grossman.

[PseudoSABR]

Where does Arcia get playing time to earn his value? You really send Kepler down to give Arcia (more of) a chance; or bench Grossman, who has out-produced him? Doesn't such moves fly in the face of the very ethic you seem to preach?

 

I really don't care about your answers to those questions, because my point is that the decision is complex and multi-faceted and colored with more than indefensibility. 

[PseudoSABR]

 

I didn't intend to set off on another Ryan tangent and not once ever have I called him stupid.

If there was a deeper point I was trying to make, it was that the Twins front office seems just as desperate for something good to happen as Twins fans are. Thus both are citing small sample sizes with regard to Arcia and Grossman.

No, I get it.  And I know you haven't but if you skim back through the thread, the trajectory is, well, what I've wrongly characterized your last post as.  

 

The point shouldn't be whether TR made the right or wrong move all along, but rather, what is the right move going forward? How much chances do we continue to give guys like Vargas, Arcia, Santana at the expense of younger guys? What is the point where we know when to cut bait? And at what point do those other, younger players force us to skirt our plan?  Basically I'd rather a conversation focused on what to do next, than on who to blame with where we're at, but perhaps that's only me. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Where does Arcia get playing time to earn his value? You really send Kepler down to give Arcia (more of) a chance; or bench Grossman, who has out-produced him? Doesn't such moves fly in the face of the very ethic you seem to preach?

 

I really don't care about your answers to those questions, because my point is that the decision is complex and multi-faceted and colored with more than indefensibility. 

 

Send down Park, play Arcia.  Or platoon them more regularly.  You are not giving up any lottery ticket for cash in that case.  You get rid of Neil Ramriez, Buddy Boshers, or any of the other schmoes in a 13 man bullpen.

 

It's not complex.  The team had a host of other options that didn't include waiving him off the 40 man.  Options in which they didn't have to risk losing anyone.  

[PseudoSABR]

 

Send down Park, play Arcia.  Or platoon them more regularly.  You are not giving up any lottery ticket for cash in that case.  You get rid of Neil Ramriez, Buddy Boshers, or any of the other schmoes in a 13 man bullpen.

 

It's not complex.  The team had a host of other options that didn't include waiving him off the 40 man.  Options in which they didn't have to risk losing anyone.  

Does Park get better facing AAA pitching? Aren't we again flirting with which lottery tickets to give playing time too? Ramirez' or Boshers' roster spot buys Arcia no playing time.  Arcia sitting on the bench probably has less value than an arm in the bullpen, esp. to save against over use on a pitching-poor team...

 

I can get on board with the designation of Arcia is result of the obstinate refusal to trade Plouffe and not account for winning the bid on Park, but that's not the argument that's being made.  

 

In any case, that the discussion has made it this far suggests there's something more than indefesibility...but you'll tell me otherwise, I'm sure.

[glunn]

Moderator note -- let's try to stop covering the same ground over and over. People have stated their views and this is devolving into squabbling.

[TheLeviathan]

 

In any case, that the discussion has made it this far suggests there's something more than indefesibility...but you'll tell me otherwise, I'm sure.

 

So  far the defenses you've mounted are rather irrelevant.  First it's Santana vs. Arcia - not a valid defense.  No such Mad Max scenario existed.  Then it's about playing time, which isn't the issue (it's separate), the issue is giving away a young player with a pretty decent string of early success when you had many other options.  Again - options that exposed you to losing NO ONE.  

 

Don't lose a lottery ticket for nothing.  We can argue playing time later, don't hand away lottery tickets when you don't have to.  That's what is indefensible.  They chose to give away Arcia over a host of options that didn't require that to happen.  That's the issue.

[jud6312]

I think we're putting WAY too much thought into this ... Robbie's hitting .229 in June, so I think it's safe to say his extension is coming soon and LF will be locked down for a long time to come.

[jokin]

 

Also fun to note that his 3 for 5 night tonight started with a left-hander on the mound for Boston.

 

Said it before, Arcia has had a reverse split advantage all season. And superior BB% and K% numbers batting vs. LHPs, as well.

[jokin]

 

Moderator note -- let's try to stop covering the same ground over and over. People have stated their views and this is devolving into squabbling.

 

Devolving into squabbling? The vast chasm of disagreement on how Arcia was handled has been ongoing between the two sides in this debate for at least a month, now. And it is a direct reflection of previous roster conundrums where the Twins FO proved to be more than just a little maladroit in their perception of potential and inexplicable willingness to throw away proven raw talent when alternative roster options are always available.

 

Unfortunately, the shoddy manner in how this event was handled is just the most recent issue to come front and center on whether or not current management should be judged as fit to continue at the helm going forward. Given the current gloomy state of affairs, squabbling and dissent are all too inevitable byproducts.

[shs_59]

A.) for all their faults, I don't think this one is on the Front Office

 

I think Bruno and Molitor grew tired of Arcia and the Twins brass' had really no choice in the matter but to get either $ 50,000 dollars or a C prospect in return for him.

 

I just wished they would of coupled something with Arcia like a Plouffe/ Tonkin or Millone and maybe Alex Meyer to actually get something in return. 

 

B.) HEY at least he landed with Tampa Bay!

If I and probably many of us here stretched out our favorite teams after the Twins, or were forced to do so... likely, the Rays would be in the top 3 or 5 for many of us here.

 

me:

 

1.) Twins

gap

2.) Cubs (uncle life-long fan and nothing like the wrigely experience, he is also a diehard)

3.) A's

4.) Rays

5.) Pirates

 

-thats how i go into basically every season year in and year out, in terms of who i root for.

I'd venture a guess that many of you, regardless of where you're from or family ties you might have in you're life would be similar to my list.

 

 

so point being if he hits like David Ortiz for the next decade it won't sting like David Arias Ortiz did  so unless the Rays go on to win multiple world series.

[The Wise One]

Come back in a year or two to gloat on this one. I do love the claims of 30 HR power when he hasn't hit more than 15 hr only twice in the 8 years he has been in baseball. He will hit 30 hr because so many other people can? Is it like the power Mauer was supposed to continue to have after he hit 28 on year? Maybe Oswaldo really has Mauer power. Doubles until they defense for it