International signings

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Who isn't?  The gripe has been the Twins don't sign any big name guys.  Well, we showed that they did by using BA's list.  So you moved the goal posts to BA doesn't define the big names.  OK.  Fine.  So now you want to grade by results.  Fine.  We point out that the 2011 and 12 classes are just now entering rookie or A ball.  Earlier classes had pretty good results.  So now you want to complaint about the later classes based entirely on rankings.  Do you see the circular logic problem?  

Sorry, I didn't mean to come across like that.  I didn't set up the original goal posts so I wasn't aware I was moving them.

 

I'm just a fan who hasn't been all that impressed by their recent international strategy, and they've had kind of a weird summer in the international market.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

The Pohlad's aren't going to go out of the pool.  It's the same complaint we have when they don't sign Grienkie in free agency.  It's not going to happen so just move on.  We have ****ty owners.  The FO seems to be doing ok with the hand they are dealt.  

Terry Ryan might beg to differ on that last sentence.

 

I'm pretty sure a trusted baseball guy like TR could have convinced the owners to go out of the pool, within our overall budget.  We could have gone out of the pool just for, say, the $24 mil we committed toward Park.  It's the GM's discretion at that point, and a good GM should be able to convince ownership to trust his priorities within that budget.

 

Greinke and other elite FAs are obviously much harder to fit within that budget.  But the bonus pool and most international FAs are more akin to mid-level MLB FAs, and I think TR had complete discretion to prioritize those to his liking within the overall budget.

[darin617]

 

Bluntly, we're signing 16 year old kids so any return is 6 to 8 years away.  We're just starting to see returns from the 09 group.  It's way too early to decide how they've done under the second Ryan regime.  Some years they've gone quality and others they've gone quantity.  Just like other teams.  

 

IIRC, and I might not, Amaurys Minier was a huge signing in 2012 and he's just now - at 20 - having a solid season in low A ball.  Same with Lewin Diaz, signed a year later.  I think in 2011, the Twins went quantity and nabbed both Felix Jorge and Fernando Romero for .5m combined  

 

The sad part is most prospects the Twins draft take almost 6 years to develop, even college players. My thought is the Twins are too scared if they bring them up too early it might ruin them.

Hopefully Buxton is not that case.

[gunnarthor]

 

What I'm saying is, the Twins job isn't to sign publicly ranked/regarded players -- the Twins job is to sign (and develop) the correct ranked/regarded players.  Their moves aren't necessarily above reproach just because they sign ranked/regarded players.  Obviously no one will hit at 100% at that, it's well less than that for international amateurs, but it feels like the Twins might be hitting below the average here.  And it definitely feels like the same front office has been hitting below the average in other areas too, namely MLB and international FA, so it feels like their might be some structural weaknesses at play.

Here's an article from BA from 2014 - http://www.baseballamerica.com/international/which-teams-have-signed-the-most-international-prospects-2/#hsdeqqyOgRpMPPQj.97

 

It notes the Twins have the 3rd most international signings in their handbook and ranked them in the top 5 for international signings since 2006.

 

That seems to suggest that, at least before 2014, the Twins were doing ok.  They are just now seeing that payoff at the ML level.  I don't really see the validity that the Twins aren't doing much in recent years - esp since that complaint would be based entirely on rankings, which you have argued aren't valid for measuring success of a class.

[bird]

 

Terry Ryan might beg to differ on that last sentence.

 

I'm pretty sure a trusted baseball guy like TR could have convinced the owners to go out of the pool, within our overall budget.  We could have gone out of the pool just for, say, the $24 mil we committed toward Park.  It's the GM's discretion at that point, and a good GM should be able to convince ownership to trust his priorities within that budget.

 

Greinke and other elite FAs are obviously much harder to fit within that budget.  But the bonus pool and most international FAs are more akin to mid-level MLB FAs, and I think TR had complete discretion to prioritize those to his liking within the overall budget.

 

 

We do not know the reason(s) the Pohlads have refused, at least so far, to violate the CBA agreement by 

spending beyond the agreed-to allotment. If the reason is ethical, then I not only accept that, but I personally and wholeheartedly agree with the decision.

 

Even if I didn't have an ethical concern about cheating and other dishonorable acts, I would accept and respect their decision, similarly to how I accept a driver who holds a belief that speeding violates their personal code of moral behavior.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Apparently you disagreed with those bozos at BA and some of those other nitwits out there. 

 

IIRC, Minier was #7 on their list and #22 on another list, and Diaz was #10 on their list. If BIG signings were equally distributed among all 30 teams, those would qualify, right?

 

Both those years the TWins had top 5 pools, and spent on guys outside the top 5 as their top guy.....and spent on guys I didn't like as much due to position.

 

I guess I could just agree with everything they do, that would be fun.

[Mike Sixel]

 

We do not know the reason(s) the Pohlads have refused, at least so far, to violate the CBA agreement by 

spending beyond the agreed-to allotment. If the reason is ethical, then I not only accept that, but I personally and wholeheartedly agree with the decision.

 

Even if I didn't have an ethical concern about cheating and other dishonorable acts, I would accept and respect their decision, similarly to how I accept a driver who holds a belief that speeding violates their personal code of moral behavior.

 

I disagree, but respect your consistency on this topic.

[gunnarthor]

Here are the top 30 signings from 2010.  I think it's still too early to write off that class but there are some huge misses on that list.

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/international-affairs/2011/2611344.html

[bird]

 

Both those years the TWins had top 5 pools, and spent on guys outside the top 5 as their top guy.....and spent on guys I didn't like as much due to position.

 

I guess I could just agree with everything they do, that would be fun.

 

 

Actually, wishing they went after a pitcher or outfielder rather than a SS who was bound to be moved and a big lumbering power guy like Diaz is perfectly understandable. That's what I liked about Polanco and Kepler. I'd probably classify that as personal preference on my part, and maybe I'd question their positional priorities and/or strategies. That way, I don't have to put up with the fun of agreeing with them or with the confidence to disagree with them.

[Mike Sixel]

The Diaz one was the one I really didn't like.....from a flexibility standpoint. He either hits for extreme power, or we got nothing.....just did not like that one.

[gunnarthor]

 

Both those years the TWins had top 5 pools, and spent on guys outside the top 5 as their top guy.....and spent on guys I didn't like as much due to position.

 

I guess I could just agree with everything they do, that would be fun.

They also signed Lewis Thorpe and Chih-wei Hu those years.

 

I can't find a complete list of international signings/team/year anywhere.  

  

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Here's an article from BA from 2014 - http://www.baseballamerica.com/international/which-teams-have-signed-the-most-international-prospects-2/#hsdeqqyOgRpMPPQj.97

 

It notes the Twins have the 3rd most international signings in their handbook and ranked them in the top 5 for international signings since 2006.

 

That seems to suggest that, at least before 2014, the Twins were doing ok.  They are just now seeing that payoff at the ML level.  I don't really see the validity that the Twins aren't doing much in recent years - esp since that complaint would be based entirely on rankings, which you have argued aren't valid for measuring success of a class.

I'm really not sure I've argued anything so specifically.

 

2009 was obviously a banner year for us, internationally.  We spent aggressively like we had never done before, but arguably like we haven't really done since (I guess Javier was "bigger" compared to our 2009 signings in absolute $ terms, but not in relative terms).

 

I don't think one has to wait 6-8 years to evaluate these things either.  We knew pretty early that Sano was special, and within 3 years that Kepler, Polanco, and Hu were too.  They were known assets by that time, even if they weren't producing in MLB yet.  Maybe Jorge and Romero are creeping toward that now.

 

I don't mean to sound like I'm grading their international work too harshly.  It's a difficult place in which to succeed.  I know I said "below average" before, but frankly I probably should have said average -- but that would still suggest there is room for improvement, especially if I felt like the front office may still be operating under some outdated ideas and models.

[nicksaviking]

 

We do not know the reason(s) the Pohlads have refused, at least so far, to violate the CBA agreement by 

spending beyond the agreed-to allotment. If the reason is ethical, then I not only accept that, but I personally and wholeheartedly agree with the decision.

 

Even if I didn't have an ethical concern about cheating and other dishonorable acts, I would accept and respect their decision, similarly to how I accept a driver who holds a belief that speeding violates their personal code of moral behavior.

 

I would think if it were against the CBA, going over the pool would be strictly prohibited.

 

I just don't see the ethical issue here, the only people being hurt by going over the pool are teams owned by owners who don't want to spend more money. The Twins and all sports franchises regularly do far more unethical things when it comes to the fans, the players, their communities and the tax payers, I don't think this should even rate on a top ten list.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

We do not know the reason(s) the Pohlads have refused, at least so far, to violate the CBA agreement by 

spending beyond the agreed-to allotment. If the reason is ethical, then I not only accept that, but I personally and wholeheartedly agree with the decision.

 

Even if I didn't have an ethical concern about cheating and other dishonorable acts, I would accept and respect their decision, similarly to how I accept a driver who holds a belief that speeding violates their personal code of moral behavior.

I'm pretty sure you know you're on an island of one with this opinion... and I'm pretty sure it only strengthens your stance on the issue. I've been on a similar island many times myself, even if I don't share this one with you.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Both those years the TWins had top 5 pools, and spent on guys outside the top 5 as their top guy.....and spent on guys I didn't like as much due to position.

 

I guess I could just agree with everything they do, that would be fun.

 

Well, I don't think that the lists should really be our sole criteria. That really has already been pointed out. Perhaps they liked those guys more than anyone else. 

[bird]

 

I'm pretty sure you know you're on an island of one with this opinion... and I'm pretty sure it only strengthens your stance on the issue. I've been on a similar island many times myself, even if I don't share this one with you.

 

 

Yeah, it's lonely up here on the high road.  Shudda stayed off it.

[bird]

 

I would think if it were against the CBA, going over the pool would be strictly prohibited.

 

 

I'll stay away from any discussion of ethical and moral considerations. I have read through the CBA. It's 263 pages long I think. I have tons of experience, over hundreds of years (slight exaggeration here) negotiating and drafting various contractual agreements, but I will say I may be wrong in my interpretation of it.

 

The CBA is a contractual agreement, running AMONG the MLB franchises and BETWEEN the franchises and the players, who have contractually authorized their union to act on their behalf. Abiding by the allotment system is part of this contractual agreement. Every team agreed to abide by the very specific rules established for the system of allotment. They made a promise to the other parties that the other parties had reason to believe would be kept. Therefore, acting in a manner contrary to it constitutes a breach of faith.  It does in fact cause harm to other parties to the contract who have opted to abide by its terms.

 

Where the confusion comes in, I believe, is that the punitive costs for violating the agreement are ineffective. This has led to the intent of the agreement being misunderstood, in my opinion. Ethical and moral considerations aside, it is worth it to act in a manner contrary to what you promised to do. The rationalizations I'm hearing about why it doesn't pose a problem run the gamut. The agreement was entered into with a wink. If they really didn't want teams to bust their pool they would have made the punishment a prohibitive one. It's not really a breach of an agreement, just bending the rules. Since you know what the cost is ahead of time and you're willing to pay the piper, you're really not breaking the rules. Since everyone can do it, the only ones getting hurt are the ones not willing to break the rules. 

 

You can be pro or con about whether the Twins should violate the CBA agreement. Just like you can favor driving 65 in a 55 zone I suppose, and then we can shift the argument to whether going 90 made more sense because it got you to your job as a Drivers Ed instructor faster.  But the fact remains that the speed limit was 55. And the fact remains that busting the pool is against the CBA, at least from how I interpret it.

 

I don't really have a personal stand on the issue of whether you drive 55 or 70, and while I wouldn't do it myself and would view it as unethical, I'd have no issue if the Twins opted to bust the pool. But I do think baseball would be better off if every team abided by the agreement. Like nick said, there's plenty of unethical behavior going on all around us, and I've got my own self to deal with. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I'll stay away from any discussion of ethical and moral considerations. I have read through the CBA. It's 263 pages long I think. I have tons of experience, over hundreds of years (slight exaggeration here) negotiating and drafting various contractual agreements, but I will say I may be wrong in my interpretation of it.

 

The CBA is a contractual agreement, running AMONG the MLB franchises and BETWEEN the franchises and the players, who have contractually authorized their union to act on their behalf. Abiding by the allotment system is part of this contractual agreement. Every team agreed to abide by the very specific rules established for the system of allotment. They made a promise to the other parties that the other parties had reason to believe would be kept. Therefore, acting in a manner contrary to it constitutes a breach of faith.  It does in fact cause harm to other parties to the contract who have opted to abide by its terms.

 

Where the confusion comes in, I believe, is that the punitive costs for violating the agreement are ineffective. This has led to the intent of the agreement being misunderstood, in my opinion. Ethical and moral considerations aside, it is worth it to act in a manner contrary to what you promised to do. The rationalizations I'm hearing about why it doesn't pose a problem run the gamut. The agreement was entered into with a wink. If they really didn't want teams to bust their pool they would have made the punishment a prohibitive one. It's not really a breach of an agreement, just bending the rules. Since you know what the cost is ahead of time and you're willing to pay the piper, you're really not breaking the rules. Since everyone can do it, the only ones getting hurt are the ones not willing to break the rules. 

 

You can be pro or con about whether the Twins should violate the CBA agreement. Just like you can favor driving 65 in a 55 zone I suppose, and then we can shift the argument to whether going 90 made more sense because it got you to your job as a Drivers Ed instructor faster.  But the fact remains that the speed limit was 55. And the fact remains that busting the pool is against the CBA, at least from how I interpret it.

 

I don't really have a personal stand on the issue of whether you drive 55 or 70, and while I wouldn't do it myself and would view it as unethical, I'd have no issue if the Twins opted to bust the pool. But I do think baseball would be better off if every team abided by the agreement. Like nick said, there's plenty of unethical behavior going on all around us, and I've got my own self to deal with. 

 

Honestly, what they really wanted was an international draft/slotting system, and the CBA was setup in this way because it would fail.  The criticism of how teams would play this out was well documented the day that CBA was signed. I don't think these guys were that dumb not to see how it would play out. They needed a good reason for an international draft, because at the end of the day, that's what they wanted.

[The Wise One]

 

Both those years the TWins had top 5 pools, and spent on guys outside the top 5 as their top guy.....and spent on guys I didn't like as much due to position.

 

I guess I could just agree with everything they do, that would be fun.

I think you gave me insight into how many of the posters here think.  Thank you.  The goal of disagreeing with everything they do is about the same sort of fun as agreeing with everything they do.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I think you gave me insight into how many of the posters here think.  Thank you.  The goal of disagreeing with everything they do is about the same sort of fun as agreeing with everything they do.

 

Who disagrees with everything they do? Not me.

[kab21]

The Twins have had less incentive to blow through the soft cap since they have had one of the largest bonus pools almost every year of this system. Yes, they could have tried to sign 3 years of big name int'l FA's in one offseason but they have been able to land pretty good groups each year. I can't complain too much about how they have done in Int'l FA.

 

The answer to someone's question several pages back:

 

Ten teams that have gone over their bonus pool in previous signing periods will be unable to sign a pool-eligible player for more than $300,000 during the upcoming 2016-17 signing period: the Angels, Blue Jays, Cubs, Diamondbacks, Dodgers, Giants, Rays, Red Sox, Royals and Yankees. They are still allowed to spend their full pool allotment or trade any of their individual slot values.
Read more at http://www.baseballamerica.com/international/2016-17-international-slot-values-and-bonus-pools/#dGREFJ2s2RPCaKZq.99

 

 

I have to admit that this might have been a good year to do something like the Atlanta Braves. Great job by them to fully commit and get as many as possible.

[Mike Sixel]

as pointed out, it is hard to judge the last 5-7 years......so maybe they are taking a good path.

 

I would have preferred one year of going all in.

[bird]

 

Honestly, what they really wanted was an international draft/slotting system, and the CBA was setup in this way because it would fail.  The criticism of how teams would play this out was well documented the day that CBA was signed. I don't think these guys were that dumb not to see how it would play out. They needed a good reason for an international draft, because at the end of the day, that's what they wanted.

 

Yes, this is the argument that the agreement was signed with a wink, and that the teams knew there would be cheaters, and therefore there is no breach of faith or violation of ethical boundaries. Even though teams knew, as always, that it would be foolish to trust one another, I really doubt anyone expected the kind of cheating blitzkrieg that has taken place. When they signed the CBA, I doubt any team expected they would blow through the stop sign to the tune of $40M, and would have expressed outrage at the time if they had caught wind that a rival planned such a thing. Greed at its finest...

[Mike Sixel]

 

Yes, this is the argument that the agreement was signed with a wink, and that the teams knew there would be cheaters, and therefore there is no breach of faith or violation of ethical boundaries. Even though teams knew, as always, that it would be foolish to trust one another, I really doubt anyone expected the kind of cheating blitzkrieg that has taken place. When they signed the CBA, I doubt any team expected they would blow through the stop sign to the tune of $40M, and would have expressed outrage at the time if they had caught wind that a rival planned such a thing. Greed at its finest...

 

I agree, I doubt anyone saw the spending doing this when the deal was signed.

[gunnarthor]

Slightly off topic but what I'm waiting for is a year where one team manages to stockpile a few extra draft picks - by trades and lottery - and then just screws with the cap. Like the year the Rays had 10 picks in the top 60 (and blew most of them).  They would need a bunch of picks - Atlanta had 5 in the top 80 and I think you'd want more and you'd need a great draft class year as well.  This wouldn't have been the year but next year might.  Make the agents know that this is the year to hold out for that 3m signing bonus.  Nab all those falling guys after round 10.  But if you could haul in 6 top 15 talents somehow and you only lose $ and two future picks, it could be worth it (esp if you think you'll be picking at the bottom).  And then the internet will lose its mind.  

[The Wise One]

 

Who disagrees with everything they do? Not me.

To the same degree that anyone agrees with everything do.  You miss the point

[dgwills]

The first couple of years after the CBA I was all about taking the high road and staying within the spending cap. Once you have this many teams ignoring the cap you have to rethink your position. Ethics are great to have, but putting yourself disadvantage to follow a rule the rest of the league does not care about is not wise. I thought this was the year to spend big since we would not have to compete against a lot of the big market teams. The Twins thought otherwise.

It looks like a big missed opportunity to me and could be seen at the ownership being cheap. As much as I'd like to jump the Twin's ass and get mad about it, I just can't do it. The Twins have had too much success in International free agency and I see the results on the field every day. Due to that success I'm going to have to assume they know more about this than me. Perhaps giving multi-million dollar contracts to sixteen year olds (excluding obvious elite talent e.g. Sano) is not a good idea since you have to project so far into the future.

[Mr. Brooks]

It's a soft cap with penalties.

It's meant to leave teams with a decision.

There is nothing unethical about it.

If they never intended for anyone to actually overspend, they would have made it a hard cap.

[kab21]

 

It's a soft cap with penalties.
It's meant to leave teams with a decision.
There is nothing unethical about it.
If they never intended for anyone to actually overspend, they would have made it a hard cap.

Except that it was a negotiation. I would say that they chose to leave this loophole because what they would have had to have given up in return would have been worse for them.

 

But that doesn't mean that it is wrong to blow through the cap. it is there and nearly half of the MLB teams have done so.

[AZTwin]

There's a thread in the minor league forum on this but so far, BA has reported the following 8 guys were signed.

Wander Valdez, 3b, Dominican Republic, $495,000.

Jesus Feliz, ss, Dominican Republic. $260,000.

Stamy Gabriel Urena, ss, Dominican Republic. $130,000.

Victor Heredia, c, Venezuela

Francisco Martinez, of, Dominican Republic

Prelander Berroa, rhp, Dominican Republic

Junior Navas, rhp, Venezuela

Michael Montero, rhp, Venezuela

Read more at http://www.baseballamerica.com/international/team-team-international-signing-tracker/#67VwAJiXPf7UK7Hs.99

Stamy Urena is off to a hot start. Valdez and Montero showing some potential as well