HOF vote/Congrats Ken Griffey Jr.

[biggentleben]

Is that why there was a gigantic offensive explosion over a short time period when Aaron played?

You do realize that the "steroid era" also coincided with two expansions of the league, right? Each time the league has experienced expansion throughout history, there's been a short-term rise in offense.

 

Add in baseball finally accepting strength training as a valid way to train for the sport in the mid 90s, and you would have seen more offense with or without PEDs.

[gunnarthor]

 

Any time there is a competition, our human instinct is to find the way to get an edge, and for most of these guys, it wasn't even an edge that was against the rules. When you play cards, there's strategy involved, and sometimes you catch wind of another player's hand through process of elimination. Is that cheating or strategy? Once baseball made the rules to ban certain PEDs, then anyone punished for taking them absolutely has their name tarnished. Manny Ramirez had arguably the best right handed swing I've ever seen, but he was caught cheating, and his numbers are then rightly called into question. Outside of a positive test, it's simply a gross case of proven guilty until proven innocent, and that's completely backward!

 

It's quite possible for people to enjoy baseball and the baseball HOF without supporting PED users.

[bluechipper]

 

You do realize that the "steroid era" also coincided with two expansions of the league, right? Each time the league has experienced expansion throughout history, there's been a short-term rise in offense.

Add in baseball finally accepting strength training as a valid way to train for the sport in the mid 90s, and you would have seen more offense with or without PEDs.

You're right, I'm sure expansion played the most important role in Barry Bonds having his best years at age 36 through 39. Nice argument.

[Shaitan]

My take on the 1990s steroid era is that both pitchers and batters were juicing, so it evened out anyway. 

 

But I'm not a BWAA voter, so I don't really care. The Hall is resume padding and means nothing to me in my daily life or really in my life as a baseball fan either. It's a tourist destination and that's it.

 

Now let's discuss how Piazza's baseball performance has been blocked out in my memory by his awful job as a commentator.

 

[USAFChief]

 

Every player accused of using PEDs, while technically being a "cheater", is ten times the human being Ty Cobb was during his lifetime. Cobb was a deplorable human being whose mere presence degrades the Hall more than any drug user.

 

Yet there he is, sitting in the Hall.

 

 

PED-users may indeed be ten times the human being Ty Cobb was, but that has little or nothing to do with being recognized as one of the best baseball players in history.

 

Being an asshat doesn't make you a better baseball player.

 

There's reason to believe being a PED user does.

 

That's why Ty Cobb being in the HOF is't controversial, but Barry Bonds will always be.

 

If you want to make your case that Bonds should be in the Hall of Really Great Humans, and Cobb not, go for it.

[Dman]

 

Any time there is a competition, our human instinct is to find the way to get an edge, and for most of these guys, it wasn't even an edge that was against the rules. When you play cards, there's strategy involved, and sometimes you catch wind of another player's hand through process of elimination. Is that cheating or strategy? Once baseball made the rules to ban certain PEDs, then anyone punished for taking them absolutely has their name tarnished. Manny Ramirez had arguably the best right handed swing I've ever seen, but he was caught cheating, and his numbers are then rightly called into question. Outside of a positive test, it's simply a gross case of proven guilty until proven innocent, and that's completely backward!

 

We are probably talking past each other a little bit here.  I really don't know and haven't looked into what players of other generations did to get an advantage.  I agree back then that likely whatever they took wasn't against the law and possibly not against the rules.  Right now I really don't know.

 

Players taking PED's knew they were not supposed to take them and consciously took them to gain an advantage.  If that wasn't the case then why didn't they ever willingly admit they took them?  I agree it is human nature to gain every advantage you can get but rules are there to create a level playing field and dismissing them creates a free for all to gain advantage and it can make stats meaningless or at the very least questionable.

 

It seems like your defense is breaking the rules doesn't really matter.  If you don't get caught then all is well.  If that is your defense then why have any rules at all?  Just let players do what ever they want.  I guess I don't understand that way of thinking about this.

[Willihammer]

As a kid who grew up in the 90s, Griffey has a special place in my childhood. I remember playing pickup games with buddies at the local park (back when parks still had baseball fields) and everyone of us idolized Griffey. We all copied the swing (or tried to). He was THE guy. I'm very happy for him.

[biggentleben]

We are probably talking past each other a little bit here. I really don't know and haven't looked into what players of other generations did to get an advantage. I agree back then that likely whatever they took wasn't against the law and possibly not against the rules. Right now I really don't know.

 

Players taking PED's knew they were not supposed to take them and consciously took them to gain an advantage. If that wasn't the case then why didn't they ever willingly admit they took them? I agree it is human nature to gain every advantage you can get but rules are there to create a level playing field and dismissing them creates a free for all to gain advantage and it can make stats meaningless or at the very least questionable.

 

It seems like your defense is breaking the rules doesn't really matter. If you don't get caught then all is well. If that is your defense then why have any rules at all? Just let players do what ever they want. I guess I don't understand that way of thinking about this.

No, my point is that we're railing on guys for taking stuff that wasn't even outlawed or against the rules of the game for the time they took it or guys who have never been shown to have violated a rule of the game through testing. The game outlaws things now that we're used commonly in the 1970s. Roy Halladay is widely considered to have used amphetamines from multiple sources, but he never failed a test, so I will still be voting for him on my IBBWAA ballot.

[Vanimal46]

 

As a kid who grew up in the 90s, Griffey has a special place in my childhood. I remember playing pickup games with buddies at the local park (back when parks still had baseball fields) and everyone of us idolized Griffey. We all copied the swing (or tried to). He was THE guy. I'm very happy for him.

 

Same thoughts, Willihammer. He was the main reason I practiced, and eventually made a habit of, batting left-handed. His stance and swing was something I think everyone tried to mimic. I have very fond memories of backyard baseball and playing pick-up games at the park too.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

PED-users may indeed be ten times the human being Ty Cobb was, but that has little or nothing to do with being recognized as one of the best baseball players in history.

 

Being an asshat doesn't make you a better baseball player.

 

There's reason to believe being a PED user does.

 

That's why Ty Cobb being in the HOF is't controversial, but Barry Bonds will always be.

 

If you want to make your case that Bonds should be in the Hall of Really Great Humans, and Cobb not, go for it.

Directly from the voting instructions:

 

"Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

 

I'm pretty sure that time Cobb crawled into the stands and beat the living crap out of a fan violates roughly half those rules.

[TheLeviathan]

We're two pages in and no one has talked about Ken Griffey Jr. Baseball the video game? 

 

For shame...

 

Glad for Griff, was hard not to appreciate the way he played.  Helluva talent, well deserved honor.

[Dman]

Yeah I really loved Griffy growing up.  He was magic in Seattle.  Playing with his dad was cool too.  He was an amazing player and fun to watch.

[biggentleben]

You're right, I'm sure expansion played the most important role in Barry Bonds having his best years at age 36 through 39. Nice argument.

That's not the entirety of my argument. Like I stated, there were multiple factors that led to a large offensive output league-wide. Individual players each had different ways they accomplished that explosion.

[biggentleben]

 

According to nearly all polls, most fans don't want PED users in the HOF.  Most players in the HOF don't want PED users in the HOF.  And most BBWAA don't think PED users should be in the HOF.  You can complain that they aren't treating all forms of cheating the same, but so what?  There probably is a difference between physically altering your body (and making opponents play catch up) and a spitting on a baseball.  

 

I'd be curious to see the fan polls, because multiple polls on ESPN and Fangraphs in the last year (of the "quick poll" variety, not an article type) were decidedly in the "let the numbers speak" camp, the Fangraphs poll quite a bit more so than the ESPN, which makes sense with the more educated baseball fan in the Fangraphs poll. Also, Bonds and Clemens received significant support in the BBWAA this year. Many of them have supported other players in the past with questions about PEDs. It's not about a majority as much as it is a 3/4 majority of them don't agree that suspicions (no matter how strong) of PEDs shouldn't overweigh the accomplishments the player had on the field.

[biggentleben]

 

It's quite possible for people to enjoy baseball and the baseball HOF without supporting PED users.

 

The point is that any competition pushes the limits of finding an advantage, so if he doesn't want someone pushing that limit constantly, then it'd be wise to find an interest without competition involved.

[biggentleben]

 

PED-users may indeed be ten times the human being Ty Cobb was, but that has little or nothing to do with being recognized as one of the best baseball players in history.

 

Being an asshat doesn't make you a better baseball player.

 

There's reason to believe being a PED user does.

 

That's why Ty Cobb being in the HOF is't controversial, but Barry Bonds will always be.

 

If you want to make your case that Bonds should be in the Hall of Really Great Humans, and Cobb not, go for it.

 

Ty Cobb also was vocal about not allowing any racial minority into the league, actually wanting any non-Christian in the league to be banned. He threatened quitting multiple times for this. He has plenty to do with the game being unequitable in his era.

[gunnarthor]

 

Ty Cobb also was vocal about not allowing any racial minority into the league, actually wanting any non-Christian in the league to be banned. He threatened quitting multiple times for this. He has plenty to do with the game being unequitable in his era.

Everyone knows about Cobb's sins.  They aren't relevant to this discussion.  

[biggentleben]

 

Everyone knows about Cobb's sins.  They aren't relevant to this discussion.  

 

He was a heavy contributor to the game being unequal for him, utilized methods that were actually outlawed in the game at the time, and even faced suspensions for it. Yet, he's considered one the game's all-time great players because of the player he is, strictly observing the numbers, realizing that some of those numbers may be slanted. Yet, making the same "numbers-first" argument now is looked upon as being "in favor" of PEDs, so it is quite relevant to the current discussion because it IS the current discussion.

[Vanimal46]

 

We're two pages in and no one has talked about Ken Griffey Jr. Baseball the video game? 

 

For shame...

Which one, Ken Griffey Jr. Presents MLB on Super Nintendo, or Slugfest on N64?

[jimmer]

 

Everyone knows about Cobb's sins.  They aren't relevant to this discussion.  At all.

I think the PED discussion here, around baseball, and around the internet tells us that people decide on their own what is and isn't relevant to this discussion.  Or what is and isn't a good comparative scenario, for that matter.

[Willihammer]

Players have cheated in the past and gotten awarded with HoF inductions. That's regrettable. The goal should be to stop doing that. What we shouldn't do, IMO, is use those mistakes as justification to keep on putting cheaters in the Hall.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Which one, Ken Griffey Jr. Presents MLB on Super Nintendo, or Slugfest on N64?

 

Super Nintendo of course.

[biggentleben]

 

Players have cheated in the past and gotten awarded with HoF inductions. That's regrettable. The goal should be to stop doing that. What we shouldn't do, IMO, is use those mistakes as justification to keep on putting cheaters in the Hall.

 

So you know definitively which ones cheated? That's been my assertion on this discussion the entire time. You want to keep Manny Ramirez out, I'm fine with that. You want to keep out any other player who has been caught and suspended, I completely agree. However, to keep out a guy who hasn't tested positive is selective bias to me.

[Dman]

 

So you know definitively which ones cheated? That's been my assertion on this discussion the entire time. You want to keep Manny Ramirez out, I'm fine with that. You want to keep out any other player who has been caught and suspended, I completely agree. However, to keep out a guy who hasn't tested positive is selective bias to me.

 

While I agree that if you have no proof then I guess they get in but I guess the level of proof needed is different for me.  I mean they put people in jail for murder based on circumstantial evidence.  If there are multiple people\sources who saw and or know Doc Holiday used Amphetamines and a case is made that doesn't count because it didn't show up on a test?  Yeah you would want to corroborate stories and get the info right but I don't think passing a drug test is the only way to determine guilt here.  I think there are other ways to find out who used and who didn't.  

 

 

[biggentleben]

 

While I agree that if you have no proof then I guess they get in but I guess the level of proof needed is different for me.  I mean they put people in jail for murder based on circumstantial evidence.  If there are multiple people\sources who saw and or know Doc Holiday used Amphetamines and a case is made that doesn't count because it didn't show up on a test?  Yeah you would want to corroborate stories and get the info right but I don't think passing a drug test is the only way to determine guilt here.  I think there are other ways to find out who used and who didn't.  

 

But we're keeping out players who were suspected of using before it was even against the rules, that's the point. Halladay has been rumored to use amphetamines, which are banned now, but they are tested for. However, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, and many other players from WWII on through the early 1990s have talked about the incredible frequency with which greenies were used in the clubhouse, and they are essentially one in the same as what Halladay is now in trouble for. Do we punish those who used a substance before it was officially banned and punished by the game?

[jimmer]

Voters have talked about not voting for Bagwell based on PED rumors/suspicions. No one can seriously doubt his stats are HOF worthy (and be taken seriously, that is).  Has there even been a shred of evidence to suggest he took other than, um, he got big?

 

'He never tested positive for steroids, never was implicated in any public way, was not named in the Mitchell Report or by anyone on the record as a suspected user, and is not even on the rather comprehensive list of players linked to steroids or HGH.'

 

http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/bse-list-steroid-hgh-users-baseball.html

 

Thankfully, he should be getting in soon.

[biggentleben]

 

Voters have talked about not voting for Bagwell based on PED rumors.  Has there even been a shred of evidence to suggest he took other than, um, he got big?

 

He never tested positive for steroids, never was implicated in any public way, was not named in the Mitchell Report or by anyone on the record as a suspected user, and is not even on the rather comprehensive list of players linked to steroids or HGH.

 

http://www.baseballssteroidera.com/bse-list-steroid-hgh-users-baseball.html

 

Thankfully, he should have be getting in soon.

 

In fact, he's the perfect example of a non-question - peaked at the right time (26-32), aged normally (and abruptly for him), and never really had any abrupt body morphs. He got into major league conditioning, added muscle, and maintained basically the same size the rest of the way through his career. He also was tremendously athletic throughout his career.

[Boom Boom]

The voting system for the HOF is screwed up. Personally I believe the voters should be able to vote for as many players as they want, and to have each player on the ballot only once. You're in, or you're out.

 

Griffey is a slam-dunk, regardless.

[Dman]

 

But we're keeping out players who were suspected of using before it was even against the rules, that's the point. Halladay has been rumored to use amph use should bnotetamines, which are banned now, but they are tested for. However, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, and many other players from WWII on through the early 1990s have talked about the incredible frequency with which greenies were used in the clubhouse, and they are essentially one in the same as what Halladay is now in trouble for. Do we punish those who used a substance before it was officially banned and punished by the game?

 

No you have to be grandfathered in then.  That is typically the way it always works.  I thought PED use was always banned in MLB since 2003 if not sooner.  But I do agree if it wasn't an agreed upon banned substance then its use should not be punished.  You just cannot go back in time and change the rules.  I see where you are coming from there.

[Vanimal46]

The voting system for the HOF is screwed up. Personally I believe the voters should be able to vote for as many players as they want, and to have each player on the ballot only once. You're in, or you're out.

Griffey is a slam-dunk, regardless.

Agreed. I don't get the thought process of the voters. Seems like if there's a down year, then they reconsider someone like Bert Blylevin even though he failed to get the number of votes the previous 4-5 years he was eligible. Bert's stats did not change the first time he was eligible for the HOF. If you can't make it the first time, then they probably aren't HOF caliber.