Ryan: Sano to the OF

[Major League Ready]

 

Love and Bazz changed their physiques during the OFFSEASON. Sano injured his knee and played DH-only when he gained his weight. He probably had little capability to get aerobic exercise. Put Sano on a program between now and ST, with conditioning an

Absolutely agree.  I was speaking strictly in terms of a going forward basis.  It is entirely possible that the Twins, Sano and his agent are aware that his size could diminish his value and there could even be a plan in place.  Actually, you would hope this is the case but you sure don't here much about conditioning with most MLB players.  Some of the young guns like Bryce Harper are pretty well known for their worth ethic.

[Major League Ready]

 

Comparing Sano's body type to Shabazz and Love is a mistake.  Shabazz and Love were fat and lost weight.

 

Sano weighs 270 pounds because he's musclebound.  The weight "issue" here is preposterous.

I take it you have seen him with his shirt off.  If not, it is preposterous to assume he is 270 because he is muscle bound.   6' 4" 270 would be like the heaviest NFL linebackers and those guys pump iron constantly.  They could slim down to 240 easily if they wanted a leaner body type.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I take it you have seen him with his shirt off.  If not, it is preposterous to assume he is 270 because he is muscle bound.   6' 4" 270 would be like the heaviest NFL linebackers and those guys pump iron constantly.  They could slim down to 240 easily if they wanted a leaner body type.

 

Yes, he's probably not shredded.  But most people are saying "270 means he must be fat!" for all intents and purposes.

 

He's a muscular kid, muscle weighs a lot.  People are making way, way too much of his weight.

[Kwak]

 

Yes, he's probably not shredded.  But most people are saying "270 means he must be fat!" for all intents and purposes.

 

He's a muscular kid, muscle weighs a lot.  People are making way, way too much of his weight.

No, they aren't making too much of his weight.  That size, doesn't start, stop, or change directions quickly.  The stresses on the connective tissues increases dramatically.  Running the warning track will be "a sight".  In football, the players get about a week to heal the muscle pulls, strains--but baseball players play 6 days in 7.  The Twins will need to build another "hot tub" in Ft. Myers.  You know next to Mauer's.

[TheLeviathan]

 

No, they aren't making too much of his weight.  That size, doesn't start, stop, or change directions quickly.  The stresses on the connective tissues increases dramatically.  Running the warning track will be "a sight".  In football, the players get about a week to heal the muscle pulls, strains--but baseball players play 6 days in 7.  The Twins will need to build another "hot tub" in Ft. Myers.  You know next to Mauer's.

 

Look, I'm against him being an OF.  But people are claiming the 270 is "overweight" when 270 pounds can look very different on different people.

[sane09]

 

That size, doesn't start, stop, or change directions quickly.  

That size?  Anthony Barr 6-5 255, Kyle Rudolph 6-6 265, Antonio Gates 6-4 255 and 35-YEARS-OLD.

WTF is Sano required to do in the OF that requires more quickness than those guys?

I played baseball pretty well, but lacked the athleticism for football.

Tell me that there aren't 50 guys that size in NFL and NCAA football that couldn't play MLB OF because they aren't quick enough.

Whitch requires more quickness? Catch a fly-ball? or tackle Adrian Peterson?

Tell me Anthony Barr is too big, and therefore not quick enough to play MLB outfield.

That is laughable.

[sane09]

 

That size?  Anthony Barr 6-5 255, Kyle Rudolph 6-6 265, Antonio Gates 6-4 255 and 35-YEARS-OLD.

WTF is Sano required to do in the OF that requires more quickness than those guys?

I played baseball pretty well, but lacked the athleticism for football.

Tell me that there aren't 50 guys that size in NFL and NCAA football that couldn't play MLB OF because they aren't quick enough.

Whitch requires more quickness? Catch a fly-ball? or tackle Adrian Peterson?

Tell me Anthony Barr is too big, and therefore not quick enough to play MLB outfield.

That is laughable.

It is indeed possible that Sano may not be a good OF. But not because of his height and weight.

We will know his height and weight at ST physicals, but that is still premature for judgement.. The appropriate time to judge his OF ability is when he has played OF, not before!

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

RZR measures range.  For qualifying 3Bs,  Plouffe was 2nd in the AL in RZR (1st was fielding freak Machado :-))and 4th in the majors (again behind Machado, along with super defensive stud Arenado, and Prado)

 

OOZ tells us how many balls outside of zone a player made.  For qualifying 3Bs, Plouffe was 4th in the AL in OOZ and 7th in the majors. 

 

He's got plenty of range.

You say "plenty" of range, but I would say "occasionally shows some" range. You found a column in Fangraphs to sort that puts Plouffe right behind Arenado. I could probably find something in Fangraphs that shows Plouffe to be a light post, too  

 

I see Plouffe somewhere in that vast middle group of average-fielding third baseman. Possibly even in the upper half of that vast middle group. I'm not denying that. But the inclusion of DH's who are forced to play third base, like Pablo Sandoval, actually push Plouffe higher than he really is, I think. Plouffe's bat is about average, but not potentially dynamic like Sano's. It also gets back to how the Twins choose to see themselves going forward, as a perennial 83-79 team* or as something better. 

 

*granted last year was a lot of fun and mostly a success

[Major League Ready]

 

Look, I'm against him being an OF.  But people are claiming the 270 is "overweight" when 270 pounds can look very different on different people.

 

 

Look, I'm against him being an OF.  But people are claiming the 270 is "overweight" when 270 pounds can look very different on different people.

I guess I was interpreting the comments here a little differently.  I did not think anyone was suggesting he was fat, just that 20-25 pounds lighter would make a difference.  20lbs off that frame does not seem like much.  He sure looks quite a bit faster than Plouffe or Mauer but it would be nice to have stop watch times at different distances.  I thought people were just implying that his athleticism combined with getting in great shape and he is probably considerably better in terms of athleticism than some of the stiffs we have had in the OF the last few years.  I think he would be better than Delmon if Sano was 290.

[Willihammer]

 

Look, I'm against him being an OF.  But people are claiming the 270 is "overweight" when 270 pounds can look very different on different people.

I think the idea is 270 is a lot of weight on the joints and hammies etc regardless of whether its muscle or fat. I'm not sure how much truth there is to that since the ligaments etc might be proportional in strength (or not). And its not like he'd be standing totally still at 3B either.

 

I actually worry more about Sano injuring someone else in the field, namely Buxton or whoever is in Center.

[sane09]

 

.

I actually worry more about Sano injuring someone else in the field, namely Buxton or whoever is in Center.

A centerfielder colliding full speed with ANY corner outfielder or solid outfield wall is dangerous.

Sano is softer than a solid outfield wall and is much more likely to call for the ball.

[jimmer]

 

You say "plenty" of range, but I would say "occasionally shows some" range. You found a column in Fangraphs to sort that puts Plouffe right behind Arenado. I could probably find something in Fangraphs that shows Plouffe to be a light post, too

 

 

By all means do so.  Those stats are specifically about range and how many plays were made outside of zone.  I didn't go cherry picking obscure stats to prove anything, I picked the stats that showed exactly what was being talked about, his range. The same stats I always use when talking about range. The two stats Fangraphs says to look at when talking about range. If those stats said he lacked range, I would have posted the anyway to show you were right.

 

In fact, I will show one from Fangraphs that disagrees with RZR and OOZ.  It's called RngR.  That stat is supposed to tell us the number of runs above or below average a fielder is, determined by how the fielder is able to get to balls hit in his vicinity.  It had Plouffe 15th.  It also has Arenado all the way down to 8th and Prado 10th behind players like Bryant and 135 year old Beltre, who is #1 in that stat for 3Bs. I've always had more faith in RZR and OOZ, but if you prefer the other, there it is. Though clearly still a top notch defender, I have my doubts that at this point of his career, Beltre has the most range of any 3B in the game including Arenado, Donaldson and Machado, which is what RngR says.

 

As far as the idea that 'the inclusion of DH's who are forced to play third base, like Pablo Sandoval, actually push Plouffe higher than he really is, I think.'  I'm not sure that's true in regards to the stats I used.  If Plouffe was close to him in either stat, maybe, but being as high up as Plouffe was in both, he would have been where I showed he was regardless. The only players that would apply to would be the ones very close to where Sandoval. And if for some reason that idea applied to Plouffe it would also have apply to all the others. It would have pushed up Donaldson and Arenado and so on. Additionally, 3B only had one guy like that, some positions probably had more.

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think the idea is 270 is a lot of weight on the joints and hammies etc regardless of whether its muscle or fat. I'm not sure how much truth there is to that since the ligaments etc might be proportional in strength (or not). And its not like he'd be standing totally still at 3B either.

 

I actually worry more about Sano injuring someone else in the field, namely Buxton or whoever is in Center.

 

I would agree that Sano's size is going to make his time in the field probably a relatively short window because 162 games at that size will be hard on his body.  But he's also just a big guy, so his body structure and natural musculature might not make it as scary a proposition as some here are making it.  

[HitInAPinch]

A commentary from Torri Hunter in a IS article from early September:  "Sano’s raw power has never been in dispute. Torii Hunter, his 40-year-old teammate, describes it this way: “It’s almost a little bit of The Hulk combined with some strong-ass animal.”

http://www.si.com/mlb/2015/09/09/miguel-sano-minnesota-twins-al-wild-card

 

And a Strib Twins Insider, a little more stuff about Miguel's weight and off-season program:

http://www.startribune.com/miguel-sano-s-interesting-offseason/344836542/

 

 

[Major League Ready]

Ryan was interviewed on the MLB Network Hot Stove.  He said that they (The Twins and Sano) went into this off-season with a plan to trim him down to a weight more conducive to the defensive part of the game.  Ryan said Sano wants to be a good defender and is on-board with this plan.

It should be noted that the weight loss would be beneficial to playing 3B as well so this is not definitive proof the only plan is to move Sano to the OF.

[nicksaviking]

Which report and which scale are we basing this 270 lb weight assessment?

 

I see him listed at 260 at BBR and the Twins official site, maybe it's just me, but round numbers don't generally strike me as either accurate or current. Fangraphs lists his weight as 195. Just saying 270 possibly sounds like a number a detractor might use to sway opinion.

 

For the record, I'd prefer Sano at 3B as his bat will stand out. I recognize that Plouffe is an above average all round player, but he's a veteran and seems to be viewed as a middle of the order cornerstone, however his poor on base skills should have him batting 7th maybe 8th. I think his comfortable presence will continue to tempt Molitor to bat him much higher. I think the inability of the middle of the order to regularly get on base was/is overlooked as the offenses biggest weakness last year.

[jimmer]

 

Which report and which scale are we basing this 270 lb weight assessment?

I see him listed at 260 at BBR and the Twins official site, maybe it's just me, but round numbers don't generally strike me as either accurate or current. Fangraphs lists his weight as 195. Just saying 270 possibly sounds like a number a detractor might use to sway opinion.

 

 

I believe earlier in this post someone stated that Bernadino posted Sano's weight as 268 at the end of the season.

[Major League Ready]

 

Which report and which scale are we basing this 270 lb weight assessment?

I see him listed at 260 at BBR and the Twins official site, maybe it's just me, but round numbers don't generally strike me as either accurate or current. Fangraphs lists his weight as 195. Just saying 270 possibly sounds like a number a detractor might use to sway opinion.

For the record, I'd prefer Sano at 3B as his bat will stand out. I recognize that Plouffe is an above average all round player, but he's a veteran and seems to be viewed as a middle of the order cornerstone, however his poor on base skills should have him batting 7th maybe 8th. I think his comfortable presence will continue to tempt Molitor to bat him much higher. I think the inability of the middle of the order to regularly get on base was/is overlooked as the offenses biggest weakness last year.

 

 

Which report and which scale are we basing this 270 lb weight assessment?

I see him listed at 260 at BBR and the Twins official site, maybe it's just me, but round numbers don't generally strike me as either accurate or current. Fangraphs lists his weight as 195. Just saying 270 possibly sounds like a number a detractor might use to sway opinion.

For the record, I'd prefer Sano at 3B as his bat will stand out. I recognize that Plouffe is an above average all round player, but he's a veteran and seems to be viewed as a middle of the order cornerstone, however his poor on base skills should have him batting 7th maybe 8th. I think his comfortable presence will continue to tempt Molitor to bat him much higher. I think the inability of the middle of the order to regularly get on base was/is overlooked as the offenses biggest weakness last year.

I think what is most relevant to this discussion is what he should weigh in great shape,  how difficult will it be for him to get there, and is he committed to doing what it takes to get in that condition.  I was encouraged because the context of the discussion was that The Twins, Sano, and I am guessing his representation have all agreed on this plan. 

 

I still prefer the conditioning be put to use at 3B and that the OF consists of Buxton / Rosario & Kepler b June.  Use April and May to give Arcia once last chance.  Maybe we pick up Austin Jackson on a 1 year "make good" deal.  He is young enough that might make sense for him.

 

BTW ... I would like to see a ripped version of Sano show up to spring training.  I think his athleticism will shock some people if he is in peak condition.  The man is a freak.

[magiklair]

Putting's Sano, in the outfield sounds like a crazy idea.. He is huge, all that weight on those legs can't be a good thing. Wouldn't Byung-ho Park, be a better fit. If are going to go with crazy ideas. Yes he's never played outfield. But maybe he should give it a try... Your guys thoughts?

[ashbury]

Putting's Sano, in the outfield sounds like a crazy idea.. He is huge, all that weight on those legs can't be a good thing. Wouldn't Byung-ho Park, be a better fit. If are going to go with crazy ideas. Yes he's never played outfield. But maybe he should give it a try... Your guys thoughts?

I believe Park played some third base for his Korean team, in addition to first, so it's not like he's born to DH. I imagine Ryan wants to keep the pressure off him, but given the realities it's an option I would consider too.

[Twins33]

 

Which report and which scale are we basing this 270 lb weight assessment?

I see him listed at 260 at BBR and the Twins official site, maybe it's just me, but round numbers don't generally strike me as either accurate or current. Fangraphs lists his weight as 195. Just saying 270 possibly sounds like a number a detractor might use to sway opinion.

It was 268. People in this thread are just rounding. 

 

Berardino reported 268 pounds and that number was given to him by Rob Antony/the Twins. He posted many tweets and a blog about it on 12/02...though in the blog he said 265-268 while on twitter he only said 268.

 

I prefer Sano at 3B, but don't want the Twins to give up Plouffe for peanuts so at this point I will take Sano in the OF even if I don't really like it. I don't think he's going to be that great, because of his weight. No, it's not 268 pounds of fat, but it still takes Sano awhile to get going. Once he gets going he's got good speed for a big man. First step quickness in routes is extremely important though and I'm not at all convinced that Sano has that.