Rosenthal's latest

[Hrbowski]

Pretty good:

 

http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/seattle-mariners-manager-scott-servais-no-experience-mike-matheny-walt-weiss-brad-ausmus-102515

 

 

[biggentleben]

Quite an overstatement. He basically implies that minorities are not smart enough to be GMs because there's so few of them at Ivy League schools.

 

There is a minority issue in the majors right now, but who seriously do you see being shorted? Fredi Gonzalez of the Braves has been credited as the only minority manager in the game, and he'll be fired soon enough. Dave Martinez will likely be the next Dodgers manager, and Dusty Baker is expected to be announced as the Nationals' manager during the World Series, so the article seems to be conveniently timed as well just to emphasize a point.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I thought the minority hiring angle was a minor point. I read this as a story about the broad trend of young, analytic-friendly general managers to hire young, analytic-friendly field managers, to the exclusion of all other qualifications, or lack thereof.

[biggentleben]

The inexperienced manager angle has little to do with analytics, so I ignored that assertion. The guys hired with no experience are all former players. If you saw guys with no game experience getting hired for analytical reasons, then you may have a discussion there.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

But all managers are former players. I can't think of a single manager who wasn't.

[Willihammer]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and figure Rosenthal is one of those fans who loves to criticise cybermetrics without really understanding them.

[biggentleben]

But all managers are former players. I can't think of a single manager who wasn't.

Depends on the level. Most all managers outside of Connie Mack played at least minor league ball, but recently, the trend is former major leaguers.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and figure Rosenthal is one of those fans who loves to criticise cybermetrics without really understanding them.

There was definitely a hint of that.

[DaveW]

 

Quite an overstatement. He basically implies that minorities are not smart enough to be GMs because there's so few of them at Ivy League schools.

no he didn't....

[DocBauer]

Meh....

 

The old boy network shut out new blood, especially minorities.

 

But now new boys, who played but haven't put in the work to gain management/coaching experience, are pushing away the old boys, who pushed away the minorities, who still aren't getting hired under the new boy formula. And old boy baseball GM's, who were around the game for years and usually played some, at least in the minors, are being replaced by Ivy League math major Billy Beane/Stephen Hawking XBox-1 wannabe new age metric wonder boys who still aren't or won't hire minority......

 

....wait.....what was the topic again?

[HitInAPinch]

Baseball nerd Rosenthal attempting to quote Bob Dylan??   That's just sooo wrong.....

 

"intellectual diversity" ?  Really?  There's a spot in baseball management for morons??  SIGN ME UP!!

[Platoon]

I posted awhile ago about my preference for an elite fielding SS rather than an offensive SS, and how difficult it is to determine defense simply via analytics. Needless to say their were some dissenters. The bottom line is that relying solely on analytics is no different than relying solely on the eye test. Too much of a good thing always ends up as too much of a good thing! Another poster I read regularity contends that the current spate of hiring "rookie" managers is being driven by more and more GM wanting total control over the roster. Something that would be very difficult with a veteran manager.

[ashbury]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and figure Rosenthal is one of those fans who loves to criticise cybermetrics without really understanding them.

Sabermetrics?

 

I guess it's possible to understand something without knowing for sure what the name for it is.

[biggentleben]

 

no he didn't....

 

In subsequent interviews on this article, he has clarified his comments to go exactly there.

 

Nevermind Michael Wilbon, who is a minority that attended a primarily-white private school in Northwestern, had a discussion with Rosenthal on the issue and it was all about race and how so few minorities are at Ivy League schools, so it limits the minority hires into front office roles.

[TheLeviathan]

I thought his point was that the trend towards hiring Ivy League statisticians over former players/managers was going to further restrict the diversity of candidates.  It's not entirely preposterous.  

 

I don't think Rosenthal is saying "minorities aren't smart enough to be Ivy League statisticians", he's saying there is even less diversity in that group of candidates than there already is with experienced baseball guys.  

 

There could be some truth to that, even if it's not pleasant to acknowledge.

[Mike Sixel]

I thought his point was that the trend towards hiring Ivy League statisticians over former players/managers was going to further restrict the diversity of candidates.  It's not entirely preposterous.  

 

I don't think Rosenthal is saying "minorities aren't smart enough to be Ivy League statisticians", he's saying there is even less diversity in that group of candidates than there already is with experienced baseball guys.  

 

There could be some truth to that, even if it's not pleasant to acknowledge.

that's how I took it....a trend is developing to "restrict" the pool in new ways, a trend that makes it even more unlikely that minorities will be hired. NOT because they can't get into "elite" schools, but because compared to baseball, they are under represented there.

[biggentleben]

 

that's how I took it....a trend is developing to "restrict" the pool in new ways, a trend that makes it even more unlikely that minorities will be hired. NOT because they can't get into "elite" schools, but because compared to baseball, they are under represented there.

 

Which, when extrapolated, comes to "minorities struggle to get into elite schools on their own merits, so they'll struggle to get employed". My version simplified the comment.

 

The funny part is that so few of these guys actually went to an Ivy League school. Many of them went to "elite" schools throughout the country and/or worked on Wall Street, but it's not even a majority Ivy League sort of thing, so the point is foolish.

[bird]

If it takes an Ivy League education to fully grasp sabermetrics, we need to turn all the other institutions into homeless shelters and retrain all the Arithmetic Professors so they can capably run a soup kitchen.

[Mike Sixel]

Which, when extrapolated, comes to "minorities struggle to get into elite schools on their own merits, so they'll struggle to get employed". My version simplified the comment.

 

The funny part is that so few of these guys actually went to an Ivy League school. Many of them went to "elite" schools throughout the country and/or worked on Wall Street, but it's not even a majority Ivy League sort of thing, so the point is foolish.

No, that is not the logical conclusion at all imo. You are reading into it for some reason. I'll try again.....

 

It appears there are more minorities in baseball as a percent, than go to most colleges in general. That could be wrong, but that's my perception. It could be that less minorities apply to those schools, and it is selection bias. It could be about 1000000000 things other than what you are reading into it. There is no implication at all, imo, that they aren't smart enough to get into elite schools.

[biggentleben]

 

No, that is not the logical conclusion at all imo. You are reading into it for some reason. I'll try again.....

It appears there are more minorities in baseball as a percent, than go to most colleges in general. That could be wrong, but that's my perception. It could be that less minorities apply to those schools, and it is selection bias. It could be about 1000000000 things other than what you are reading into it. There is no implication at all, imo, that they aren't smart enough to get into elite schools.

 

That implication has been made in interviews that Rosenthal has done on the article since its publishing. It wasn't reading into the article, it was clarification on what he said he meant by the article. The discussion he's had is specifically that Ivy League schools tend to have lower minority populations than college in general, so relying on those schools for jobs puts minorities at a disadvantage going forward.

 

Regardless, I don't care if someone is black, brown, blue, or polka-dotted, any conversation trying to berate more intelligence in the decision making seats of the game is a conversation that a complete hack would put forth for page clicks and controversy, not something an esteemed writer would put forward.

[old nurse]

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb and figure Rosenthal is one of those fans who loves to criticise cybermetrics without really understanding them.

Great poke at Gardenhire.

[old nurse]

Rosenthal should know why Baker and Gardenhire are not likely to get jobs. They each havea body of work that shows what kind of teams they work best with. Those teams are not looking for managers.

[Willihammer]

 

?

"Cybermetrics"

[old nurse]

 

 

?

That was Gardenhire's word for Sabermetrics and you ought to know that Willihamer knows his math words.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

gotcha

[Mike Sixel]

ah, I thought you were reading that into the article.....if he said in interviews what you are saying he said....idiot. Too bad, I think his article has a tiny bit of merit, even if it is not well researched.

 

OTOH, it is hardly "news" that "leader hires people he knows to report to him".....

[TheLeviathan]

That implication has been made in interviews that Rosenthal has done on the article since its publishing. It wasn't reading into the article, it was clarification on what he said he meant by the article. The discussion he's had is specifically that Ivy League schools tend to have lower minority populations than college in general, so relying on those schools for jobs puts minorities at a disadvantage going forward.

 

Regardless, I don't care if someone is black, brown, blue, or polka-dotted, any conversation trying to berate more intelligence in the decision making seats of the game is a conversation that a complete hack would put forth for page clicks and controversy, not something an esteemed writer would put forward.

Where did you see these interviews?

[biggentleben]

 

Where did you see these interviews?

 

Facebook posts with excerpts from radio interviews. One was with Wilbon. I don't know the other interviewer. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Facebook posts with excerpts from radio interviews. One was with Wilbon. I don't know the other interviewer. 

 

I have tried many searches about radio interviews with Wilbon and Rosenthal and I can't find a damn thing about it.  So, by all means, indulge us with the comments he's made.

[biggentleben]

 

I have tried many searches about radio interviews with Wilbon and Rosenthal and I can't find a damn thing about it.  So, by all means, indulge us with the comments he's made.

 

I've stated it here. There's no way I could find it on my time line again as I have no idea who even posted it.