The Pohlad's and the Cry for Them to Spend More Money

[powrwrap]

Excuse me from reading anymore of this thread, my eyes are burning and I need to go gouge them out.

 

Can somebody please go find the teeth I pulled out about 15 posts ago?

I'm glad you like it!

 

I get much of the same enjoyment reading about hypothetical lineups the Twins should employ in 2015.

[Highabove]

I have proved my Case. I'm out

 

https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQKu3_KqS6GsNh31opQDpvq-2qorftMBSynQLADKM9MHgCLclI-_w

[drivlikejehu]

Sorry, but LLC's, like corporations, provide a shield for the owners against debts incurred by the LLC's as well as protections against other liabilities the LLC may incur. There is a separation.

 

That is just totally irrelevant. Pohlad can make bank transfers (or anything else) all the same. The banker doesn't say, "But Mr. Pohlad, you aren't liable for debts exceeding the LLC's capital accounts!"

 

He has complete, 100% control, with no impediments. The LLC form just provides some legal and tax benefits that don't have anything to do with Twins operations.

 

You are correct about the terminology. LLC's pay distributions, not dividends. I was merely repeating what others had said so as not to introduce new terminology. The income or loss of a partnership is reported on Schedule K-1.

 

Nice try but you should have checked Wikipedia before making error-filled posts in the first place.

[powrwrap]

That is just totally irrelevant. Pohlad can make bank transfers (or anything else) all the same. The banker doesn't say, "But Mr. Pohlad, you aren't liable for debts exceeding the LLC's capital accounts!"

 

He has complete, 100% control, with no impediments. The LLC form just provides some legal and tax benefits that don't have anything to do with Twins operations.

 

I'm not arguing that Pohlad doesn't have control of the Twins with no impediment. I'm trying to point out that there is more to spending money on payroll than for Pohlad to open his wallet. Ultimately that's what he will do but he has to take into consideration how it will affect his overall business operations and tax situation. These are the "legal and tax benefits" that you say has nothing to do with Twins operations. I say they do.

 

Nice try but you should have checked Wikipedia before making error-filled posts in the first place.

 

Let's be clear: You are saying that there is no legal or tax difference between the Pohlads and the Minnesota Twins?

[TheLeviathan]

I'm not arguing that Pohlad doesn't have control of the Twins with no impediment.

So he can do what he wants? And all anyone else is saying is "if he can do what he wants, he should spend more money"

 

You just overly complicated a very simple issue. You think it's unfair to criticize him for not going beyond the business revenue on player salaries because then it dips into his non-baseball wealth. Fine - all this other stuff was a giant cluster-funk that turned this thread into an obnoxious series of puffy nonsense.

[powrwrap]

You think it's unfair to criticize him for not going beyond the business revenue on player salaries because then it dips into his non-baseball wealth. Fine - all this other stuff was a giant cluster-funk that turned this thread into an obnoxious series of puffy nonsense.

I plead innocent to creating "all this other stuff". I pretty much tried to stay with my original point but others tried to derail it.

[TheLeviathan]

I plead innocent to creating "all this other stuff". I pretty much tried to stay with my original point but others tried to derail it.

You dressed your original post in a bunch of legal nonsense and excusatory drivel. The results were completely driven by you.

[drivlikejehu]

I'm not arguing that Pohlad doesn't have control of the Twins with no impediment. I'm trying to point out that there is more to spending money on payroll than for Pohlad to open his wallet. Ultimately that's what he will do but he has to take into consideration how it will affect his overall business operations and tax situation. These are the "legal and tax benefits" that you say has nothing to do with Twins operations. I say they do.

 

Let's be clear: You are saying that there is no legal or tax difference between the Pohlads and the Minnesota Twins?

The Pohlad family has complete control of the Twins. The law allows the use of LLCs to limit liability, but that doesn't impact operations at all. Well, unless the stadium caves in on top of 30,000 people or something.

 

Unincorporated businesses can experience some tax benefits in general, but in this case it is pretty unlikely. I'd explain but you would require a background in the legal and tax accounting issues in order to understand.

 

So, to sum up, your point remains wholly incorrect. The only issue with raising payroll is that it would mean less profit for the Pohlads. Like I said, it's their money, but that doesn't mean fans have to justify their thrifty ways.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

Ahh good, the bleeding stopped. Now if I could only find my keyboard...

 

Is this inane thread still going on? Please direct yourself to the following website for a rousing discussion on Limited Liability Corporations:

 

http://www.findlaw.com/

 

Now, on to the discussion of how Kirby Butera will be the MinnDakota Twins backup catcher in 2034...

[roger]

I showed you that the Twins are an LLC. It's a given that if you are on the board of directors of a corporation and active in the day-to-day running of the company you are going to own stock in that company.

I am in agreement with most of your claims until this one. Being a director or officer of a corporation in no way signifies that you are also a shareholder. Most closely held corporations, which this is, will have many officers who are not in fact shareholders.

 

As for the comment about the operating income. They do not show their source or explain what they mean by operating income. Normally however, normal GAAP accounting standards would have operating income different than 'net income.'

 

Thanks for an interesting post!

[BD57]

Always amusing to see how many people think they should have a say in spending other people's money .....

 

ya'll have a future in politics.

[etspaceman]

The point is (After paying out 113 million dollars in payroll, the Twins still realized operating income of 16.6 million dollars.)

 

Where is the out of pocket expense? A 16.6 million dollar surplus to turn over to the Accountants is not bad.

This goes directly back to the OPs point -> The owner would have to loan his company the money and hope that they can pay him back. People don't make good money by making poor decisions like that. You don't just pour money into a black hole of payroll because you happen to have it; that's how business owners go bankrupt. You would never see that money again. Your business that is driving that payroll should be able to support that on their own, and I think the Twins payroll is able to support a competitive staff.

[Highabove]

Always amusing to see how many people think they should have a say in spending other people's money .....

 

ya'll have a future in politics.

Who's Money built the Stadium for the Pohlad's?

[jorgenswest]

The best I can take from this discussion is the Twins are ranked somewhere between 12 and 16 in revenue, salary obligations and operating income. It seems like the numbers are what should be expected of a midmarket team.

[glunn]

It appears that there are 3 Pohlad brothers and they consider themselves equal. Here is a quote from an article in the Strib from 2010:

 

"The brothers consider themselves equals in the overall Pohlad organization, although Jim oversees the Twins and Bill is CEO of his movie production company, River Road. Bob supervises the organization's other companies. All three sit on a six-member board of directors that governs the businesses, along with three nonfamily members who were advisers to Carl before the brothers took over."

 

Here is a link to the article: http://www.startribune.com/business/112456709.html?page=2&c=y

 

It seems pretty clear that the three brothers have lots of choices in investing their pooled money, including real estate, motion pictures and free agent pitchers. Like all smart capitalists they weigh the potential risks and returns of all potential investments.

 

As for the debate about what restrictions might apply to an LLC, I would note that operationally and for tax purposes, an LLC with multiple owners is basically the same as a partnership, and the members of the LLC can easily put money in or take money out based on what investments they want to make at any given time.

 

I would prefer ownership that is more committed to winning for the sake of winning. I like how the owner of the Tigers is paying $20 million+ this year to keep Verlander, and just agreed to pay $23 million per year to Fielder. Will these investments pay off? Probably not, but this owner really wants to win. And I suspect that if the Tigers had Johan Santana, they would not trade him to the Mets because they could not "afford" to keep him.

 

I don't think that the Pohlads are cheap. They are typical conservative capitalists who are running the Twins like a business, and who are not willing to take extra risks because they crave a championship. I would prefer an internet billionaire who wants a World Series win and who could care less about $20 million here or there. But most owners seem to be like the Pohlads, and a lot of them seem worse.

[Top Gun]

Harmon Killebrew once held out all one spring training for a $500 raise and Calvin Griffith didn't give in, owners can be bitches.

[Land Of 10,000 Beasts]

Thank you sir for posting this. It's easy for us as fans to blame the owners for all of our troubles. The reality is that if something is not a smart business decision, then why do it? This is a business, not a charity.

[Highabove]

Thank you sir for posting this. It's easy for us as fans to blame the owners for all of our troubles. The reality is that if something is not a smart business decision, then why do it? This is a business, not a charity.

This Business expected and received a 350 million dollar charitable donation from the Public.

[raindog]

So we, as typical fans, rhetorically oversimplify the issue of the Pohlads not spending more money on improving the team. Shocker.

 

The Pohlads are uber-rich businessmen who run a baseball team like a business. Coming out even, or taking a minor loss would not devastate them financially. As a lover of baseball, I cannot understand this, and would like to call them cheap.

[Shane Wahl]

Well, that was interesting.

 

I agree with the general sentiment about the Pohlads here and I don't like the argument that it is "their money, so . . . ." Wealth is not created in a vacuum. A lot of "my wealth" is generated socially and depends on other people (who pay to take my classes, who build roads, cars, etc. etc. etc.). And clearly in this case there is a DIRECT connection between the Pohlads and other people's money! That's generally how that economic class of people gets wealthy, after all. But enough about that.

 

I still wouldn't judge on this year's spending. Now if payroll drops again this coming year, then everyone should really take issue with how these greedy jerks are "spending their money."

[MWLFan]

So the final analysis of this thread is that it is the Pohlads team, with maybe a few other people involved, the Team is run as a business by the owners, The Team spends about 50% of it's revenue on payroll, in order to spend more the team has to go beyond team money to sign a big name free agent with that has risk attached to the spend due to injury and performance drop, that this money would come from the Pohlad family who are very rich, that the Tax payers spent a lot of money on the beautiful state of the art stadium which is a major source of civic pride that the millionaire players play in and the billionaire owner gets revenue from in the form of 8 dollar beers and some cuban sandwiches, that people who have no financial interest in the teams performance on the balance sheet thinks they should spend more money on said risky free agents in order to make them feel better about spending a couple hundred $$$ to attend a game with a family of four, and if they don't they will not suppport the team with their money unless of course the team starts winning through some miracle and the beautiful park becomes full of rubes dropping their cash on the Bud and Steak Sandwiches. And did I mention that the Pohlads are rich and the Tax payers of Minnesota paid for the stadium? Does that cover it? Well I didn't know any of that before. Thanks guys.

 

Actually I should have read Powrwraps original post and just stopped. But it sucked me in like a bad performance on American Idol or a Nick Blackburn start, so bad you just can't take your eyes off it even though you no the ending. I have learned my lesson and will not do this again I hope, but I am weak.

[powrwrap]

that people who have no financial interest in the teams performance on the balance sheet thinks they should spend more money on said risky free agents in order to make them feel better about spending a couple hundred $$$ to attend a game with a family of four

 

Very nice.

 

Does that cover it?

 

Almost. An important point is that the Pohlads are not like other sports team owners such as Mike Illitch, the Steinbrenners, Mark Cuban (and others) that consider their teams a hobby rather than a business and thus make emotional rather than sound business decisions when it comes to spending money.

 

Actually I should have read Powrwraps original post and just stopped. But it sucked me in like a bad performance on American Idol or a Nick Blackburn start, so bad you just can't take your eyes off it even though you no the ending. I have learned my lesson and will not do this again I hope, but I am weak.

 

Resistance is futile! You will become like us!