GOP Debate

[Squirrel]

 

. Acting shocked while supporting baby murder huh?

Enough. Last I checked this was a thread about GOP candidates. While issues do come up in the course of discussion, particularly a political thread, do not drag this down a one-issue course. I don't particularly like to 'moderate' an off-topic thread, but you are taking this a bit too far. And characterizing other posters in this fashion, when you really have no real idea what they support or don't, is disrespectful, both to Ben and to those discussing ideas in good faith.

[biggentleben]

 

. Acting shocked while supporting baby murder huh?

 

As was stated above, this is an extreme and reactionary response. I don't by any means support murder on a black and white basis. I don't support rape on a black and white basis. I don't support incest in any way on a black and white basis. Then you find lots and lots of gray in the middle of all those issues.

 

I will openly admit that I'm not sure I could give a blanket statement on abortion. I am in classes to be certified as a foster parent, I worked in youth ministry, and my current job is in adult mental health. I've seen so many different angles on this issue. I had to counsel parents who forced a college-aged daughter who was raped to take the baby to term, and the continued presence of that child inside of her for 8 months was a constant and continuous reminder of what could have been a one-night, one-time incident to work through in counseling. She was someone who suffered from depression and had actively utilized medication and counseling to treat her depression from the time she was 14. Instead, she had an incredibly difficult pregnancy (where she was unable to take her mental health medications due to negative effects to the baby) and tragically in the end, she committed suicide, effectively killing herself and her unborn child. I will tell you that those parents will tell you that abortion is a lot more gray to them than it once was.

 

I've worked with a teenager who was sexually molested and abused by a cousin until she became pregnant. This teenager was too far along in her pregnancy before getting the pregnancy confirmed to have even sought an abortion, and she carried the child to term. She put the child up for adoption, but (possibly due to the incestual nature of his conception) her child was developmentally disabled, and the child was nearly 2 years old before he was adopted.

 

That said, I had a couple friend of mine seek my advice. They found through prenatal testing that their child was going to be born with down syndrome. They are a very well-to-do young family, and this would be their third child, but it was absolutely a planned pregnancy. They came to me to ask my opinion on the option of terminating the pregnancy early. In that case, I was personally heavily against the abortion. Their son was born without down syndrome as the test was incorrect, and they would have terminated that child unnecessarily.

 

All three of those cases would be an absolute no for someone who is hard-line black and white anti-abortion (I refuse to consider someone against abortion "pro life" when there is an extremely high correlation for those who are anti-abortion and those who are pro-international military aggressiveness, but that's a whole other discussion). For me, there was only one I could be absolutely against, and the first two depended on the person and case involved.

 

I want to move the discussion beyond this one issue, so that will be the last I'll post on the topic of abortion, however, using this as an example, there is so little at all in life that is black and white. There is room for intelligent, researched, respectful discussion on nearly all of these issues, but all too often, the options we are presented in elections pander to black and white, and that preaches to the extremes and is removed from the reality of life.

 

So you can base your opinions, I'm a registered independent. I've never voted a straight-line party ticket (and I never intend to intentionally). In our local elections, we have three representative in the state-wide government. In the last election, I voted for two Republicans and one Democrat, not because of party affiliation, but because I knew the people and what they personally stood for and that they would be able to work across a party line on an issue. I'm a very strong Christian, having attended a year of seminary at a point in my life before pursuing social work rather than full-time ministry for myriad reasons that are not significant to this board. I grew up on a farm in a rural area, but I've lived in downtown Minneapolis and also in the suburbs of the Twin Cities in my life, so I've had an opportunity to experience different lifestyle experiences as well. Considering my position on a topic is not something that you can put into a box based on any aspect of boxes I check on a piece of paper, so I ask anyone in this conversation to expect that others' positions are not completely boxed on one issue based on their opinion on another issue.

 

Now, back to the discussion on the insanity of Trump and whether any of the GOP candidates can reach across the center line to attract centrist voters in the 2016 election.

[glunn]

The abortion debate frustrates me, because it tends to devolve into labeling and insults, and key points get ignored.  That said, I am going to start a thread where people can respectfully discuss this.

 

I am also deleting Mike's post about baby murder, because it violates TD policy by misrepresenting the position of another poster in a manner that is insulting.

 

 

[glunn]

 

As was stated above, this is an extreme and reactionary response. I don't by any means support murder on a black and white basis. I don't support rape on a black and white basis. I don't support incest in any way on a black and white basis. Then you find lots and lots of gray in the middle of all those issues.

 

I will openly admit that I'm not sure I could give a blanket statement on abortion. I am in classes to be certified as a foster parent, I worked in youth ministry, and my current job is in adult mental health. I've seen so many different angles on this issue. I had to counsel parents who forced a college-aged daughter who was raped to take the baby to term, and the continued presence of that child inside of her for 8 months was a constant and continuous reminder of what could have been a one-night, one-time incident to work through in counseling. She was someone who suffered from depression and had actively utilized medication and counseling to treat her depression from the time she was 14. Instead, she had an incredibly difficult pregnancy (where she was unable to take her mental health medications due to negative effects to the baby) and tragically in the end, she committed suicide, effectively killing herself and her unborn child. I will tell you that those parents will tell you that abortion is a lot more gray to them than it once was.

 

I've worked with a teenager who was sexually molested and abused by a cousin until she became pregnant. This teenager was too far along in her pregnancy before getting the pregnancy confirmed to have even sought an abortion, and she carried the child to term. She put the child up for adoption, but (possibly due to the incestual nature of his conception) her child was developmentally disabled, and the child was nearly 2 years old before he was adopted.

 

That said, I had a couple friend of mine seek my advice. They found through prenatal testing that their child was going to be born with down syndrome. They are a very well-to-do young family, and this would be their third child, but it was absolutely a planned pregnancy. They came to me to ask my opinion on the option of terminating the pregnancy early. In that case, I was personally heavily against the abortion. Their son was born without down syndrome as the test was incorrect, and they would have terminated that child unnecessarily.

 

All three of those cases would be an absolute no for someone who is hard-line black and white anti-abortion (I refuse to consider someone against abortion "pro life" when there is an extremely high correlation for those who are anti-abortion and those who are pro-international military aggressiveness, but that's a whole other discussion). For me, there was only one I could be absolutely against, and the first two depended on the person and case involved.

 

I want to move the discussion beyond this one issue, so that will be the last I'll post on the topic of abortion, however, using this as an example, there is so little at all in life that is black and white. There is room for intelligent, researched, respectful discussion on nearly all of these issues, but all too often, the options we are presented in elections pander to black and white, and that preaches to the extremes and is removed from the reality of life.

 

So you can base your opinions, I'm a registered independent. I've never voted a straight-line party ticket (and I never intend to intentionally). In our local elections, we have three representative in the state-wide government. In the last election, I voted for two Republicans and one Democrat, not because of party affiliation, but because I knew the people and what they personally stood for and that they would be able to work across a party line on an issue. I'm a very strong Christian, having attended a year of seminary at a point in my life before pursuing social work rather than full-time ministry for myriad reasons that are not significant to this board. I grew up on a farm in a rural area, but I've lived in downtown Minneapolis and also in the suburbs of the Twin Cities in my life, so I've had an opportunity to experience different lifestyle experiences as well. Considering my position on a topic is not something that you can put into a box based on any aspect of boxes I check on a piece of paper, so I ask anyone in this conversation to expect that others' positions are not completely boxed on one issue based on their opinion on another issue.

 

Now, back to the discussion on the insanity of Trump and whether any of the GOP candidates can reach across the center line to attract centrist voters in the 2016 election.

 

This is one of the best posts I have ever read.  

[biggentleben]

 

I am also deleting Mike's post about baby murder, because it violates TD policy by misrepresenting the position of another poster in a manner that is insulting.

 

Just a note that it is quoted in my post, so you may need to remove it, though that would make the initial response of my post to sound awkward, but I understand if that would like to be completely removed.

 

Thank you for your comment on the post as well.

[stringer bell]

The GOP has a demographic problem that won't reverse any time soon. Their base is shrinking, while the Democrats base is expanding. They need to reach over to the middle, but instead have leaned harder and harder on the base.

 

Ironically, it has worked well for non-Presidential elections. We have more Republicans holding elective office than at any time in my memory and it's not really close. Having majorities in swing and purple states like Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania have emboldened legislators to pass right wing agenda items that would have been thought of as unthinkable as recently as ten years ago.

 

What does that have to do with the GOP debate? IMHO, the apparatus distills the candidates and no candidate can be seen as moderate. There are two types of Republicans--Conservative and more Conservative, and that isn't in line with the thinking of a majority of the populace.

 

That said, with plenty of voter suppression tactics in place and the fatigue of having a Democrat in the White House for the last eight years, there is a decent chance that a conservative Republican could be elected.

[mikecgrimes]

Keep calling me and all on one side of the issue extreme. Keep deleting posts describing exactly what abortion is. I get that the other side thinks it somehow isn't murder, but the suggestion that term mis represents the view is just silly. The fact that people take comfort in abortion not being murder is fine but ultimately each and every abortion has an identical end result no matter where you want to put it in the grey area. And lastly if the opposing side doesn't want an abortion debate the opposing side shouldn't have called me and candidates I agree with extreme.

[mikecgrimes]

 

 

That said, with plenty of voter suppression tactics in place and the fatigue of having a Democrat in the White House for the last eight years, there is a decent chance that a conservative Republican could be elected.

. That explains a lot. Despite election results making it clear the GOP isn't extreme the other side still finds a way to misrepresent us. In this case the other side is basically calling the GOP and its supporters criminal. This is a clear misrepresentation of what voter id laws are all about. I suppose when you think you own the black vote it can't possibly be democrat policy that gives them no hope it has to be the Republicans cheating.

[biggentleben]

 

Keep calling me and all on one side of the issue extreme. Keep deleting posts describing exactly what abortion is. I get that the other side thinks it somehow isn't murder, but the suggestion that term mis represents the view is just silly. The fact that people take comfort in abortion not being murder is fine but ultimately each and every abortion has an identical end result no matter where you want to put it in the grey area. And lastly if the opposing side doesn't want an abortion debate the opposing side shouldn't have called me and candidates I agree with extreme.

 

I didn't call YOU extreme. I said your response was extreme. You know, the response that did call ME a murderer.

 

It's a point of intelligent debate - being able to understand the other side enough to actually respect their position. You want to discuss the points made within a discussion, we can have that discussion. Flinging crap along the lines of the monkeys is not going to allow anyone to come to any semblance of an understanding, and frankly, that's exactly what we're all suffering from in the political landscape. These political posts have been tremendous up to this point on this forum because of the respectful discourse that has occurred. I ask, on behalf of those others here, for you to please either choose to enter into these discussions in a respectful manner or exhibit that same respect and stay out of them.

[kab21]

I don't understand why this had to devolve into this nonsense.  Abortion is but one social issue but it is actually the others that have been shifting significantly in the last couple of decades.  The republicans are not only taking the unfavorable side but they are also making it one of the major talking points.  This not good for the party as the country continues to shift to a more liberal stance on these topics.

 

If they don't adapt then they are going to get hammered in presidential elections.  Taking a stronger stance that appeals to the far right won't help them.  They already have those voters.

 

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

The Fox News moderators earned praise from liberal media outlets like the New York Times.

 

 

Social issues are an overrated set of issues. He could possibly nominate a pro-life judge but over the last forty plus years there's been pro-life justices and Roe v Wade hasn't been overturned.

 

I think the dirty little secret here is that at the end of the day, I suspect that most of the Republican leaders really don't want Roe overturned.  They've had the opportunity to do it, but it has consistently failed.  I don't think that is an accident.  Abortion being legal gets their base showing up to the polls far more than what would happen if it was illegal.  It's one of many reasons why I think that picking/choosing candidates based on their views on one or two issues is a horrible idea.

[TheLeviathan]

Ironically, it has worked well for non-Presidential elections. We have more Republicans holding elective office than at any time in my memory and it's not really close. Having majorities in swing and purple states like Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania have emboldened legislators to pass right wing agenda items that would have been thought of as unthinkable as recently as ten years ago.

This is because it's the Dems who have it much harder getting people to the polls, especially in non-presidential cycles.

 

The Republican base is far more reliable, which makes their unwillingness to state a broader mission all the more inexplicable.

[mikecgrimes]

Republicans under 40 have agreed with you on gay marriage. Many agree with you on the drug debate. As for abortion I'll give you all the he middle ground I can. Late term abortion with none of the commonly discussed exceptions should result in a minimum 90 days in jail for both the mother the doctor and I'd he can be proven to be involved in the decision the father. If the other side is going to be more focused on being offended then trying to find middle ground don't complain about the grey area. I'd prefer all abortions had criminal consequences, but if we want middle ground then please encourage your elected Democrats to seek it out. My wife is 7 months pregnant she has the legal right to have a doctor kill that 4 pound baby, and if somehow she made that choice behind my back the only thing I could do is divorce her. He already has a name. I don't know what you would call that but there's a word that I would assume would be agreeable. Based on the tone of this discussion maybe I'm wrong.

[TheLeviathan]

Republicans under 40 have agreed with you on gay marriage. Many agree with you on the drug debate.

And yet, most of the candidates oppose gay marriage and conservative talk leaders are still calling for major punishments for minor drug offenses.

 

At the very least see where the tide has turned and platform on issues that won't make young fiscal conservatives roll their eyes.

[mikecgrimes]

Most political candidates in all parties are over 40. Democrat candidates have just came along in the last 2 or 3 years. I've been begging Democrats to nominate candidates that share your view and mine for years.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Most political candidates in all parties are over 40. Democrat candidates have just came along in the last 2 or 3 years. I've been begging Democrats to nominate candidates that share your view and mine for years.

 

That puts their public stance still 2-3 years ahead of the Republicans.  And, let's face it, the bulk of the people on that stage aren't going to accept gay marriage even on their death bed.

 

Most of that group looks more like Ted Cruz than Rand Paul.  That's the problem.  Ted Cruz is nauseating to my brain and yet the Republicans keep throwing guys like him at us.

[DaveW]

I'm not so sure about the Republicans under 40 comment. I sadly know a LOT of conservatives under 40 who are still very much against Gay Marriage. The south still has a real long ways to go IMO.

[kab21]

Do you understand that a trend is not an absolute 100%?

 

18-29 yr olds support gay marriage (78%)

30-49 = 54%

 

What those numbers don't tell you - those are 25-35 pt shifts in just two decades.  That is a massive shift. 

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/169640/sex-marriage-support-reaches-new-high.aspx

[Willihammer]

Tump, Cruz, Carson 1-2-3 in a NBC poll.

 

http://www.pdf.investintech.com/preview/33f7458c-3ec9-11e5-9555-002590d31986/index.html

 

[DaveW]

 

Do you understand that a trend is not an absolute 100%?

 

18-29 yr olds support gay marriage (78%)

30-49 = 54%

 

What those numbers don't tell you - those are 25-35 pt shifts in just two decades.  That is a massive shift. 

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/169640/sex-marriage-support-reaches-new-high.aspx

I would be interested to see the shifts from 2008 to 2015. 1996 means nothing to me.

[kab21]

In 2008 40% of Americans supported gay marriage and in 2014 it was 55%.  It is all in the link.  The country is changing and unfortunately only the Democrats are paying attention.  The GOP seems to be in denial of these changes that are happening.

[DaveW]

In 2008 40% of Americans supported gay marriage and in 2014 it was 55%. It is all in the link. The country is changing and unfortunately only the Democrats are paying attention. The GOP seems to be in denial of these changes that are happening.

Fired up today eh?

[mikecgrimes]

I'm not so sure about the Republicans under 40 comment. I sadly know a LOT of conservatives under 40 who are still very much against Gay Marriage. The south still has a real long ways to go IMO.

. I agree. One parties at around 60% under 40 the other is 80%. I'd be more worried about Russia or Iran then some town with 600 people in Mississippi but that's just me. Huge difference between intolerance and actual hate not to say none exists in this country.

[mikecgrimes]

In 2008 40% of Americans supported gay marriage and in 2014 it was 55%. It is all in the link. The country is changing and unfortunately only the Democrats are paying attention. The GOP seems to be in denial of these changes that are happening.

. Republicans are not in denial its just that when most candidates are 55 plus we aren't going to find a viable candidate with an opposing view in 2016 much like Democrats couldn't in 2008, and depending how you define Hillary's change in public statements I'm not so sure the Democrats are ready to find one in 2016. The good news despite never electing a president who supported it it is already legal and that will never change it. You can bash all you want but evn tea party Republicans agree with you. I continue to dare Democrats to nominate someone who have consistently been on our side.

[biggentleben]

There should not be "sides". That's the whole problem.

[mikecgrimes]

There should not be "sides". That's the whole problem.

. What do you propose we do with the people who don't happen to agree with our point of view. I choose to tolerate them.

[TheLeviathan]

 

. Republicans are not in denial its just that when most candidates are 55 plus we aren't going to find a viable candidate with an opposing view in 2016 much like Democrats couldn't in 2008, and depending how you define Hillary's change in public statements I'm not so sure the Democrats are ready to find one in 2016. The good news despite never electing a president who supported it it is already legal and that will never change it. You can bash all you want but evn tea party Republicans agree with you. I continue to dare Democrats to nominate someone who have consistently been on our side.

 

I think most Democrats were scared to share their true positions due to political expediency.  Something both sides have a huge problem with.

 

No one will care that Hillary flip-flopped on the position if she's going up against some bible-thumper who opposes it.

[Mike Sixel]

I think a big issue for Republicans, having formerly been one who was recruited by Pawlenty to run for the house.......is that a lot of moderates were forced out of the party and leadership. That has left a real culture of groupthink around many issues for the party as a whole. I sat in some of those meetings (having worked on a Republican presidential campaign).......groupthink is a real problem, that is getting worse according to my friends that just couldn't quit the party, no matter how much they disagreed with it.

 

As for the debate, I missed it, don't have cable. I'm terrified of the anit-science group that wants to make us stupider (and yes, that is an actual strategy espoused by some leaders). There is a large group of people that want us to be stupid, and to just believe stuff, so they can control us. It's one reason they love sports and religion so much......great distractions from the reality of the world.

 

[Craig Arko]

. What do you propose we do with the people who don't happen to agree with our point of view. I choose to tolerate them.

Sharknado IV.

[kab21]

 

I think a big issue for Republicans, having formerly been one who was recruited by Pawlenty to run for the house.......is that a lot of moderates were forced out of the party and leadership. That has left a real culture of groupthink around many issues for the party as a whole. I sat in some of those meetings (having worked on a Republican presidential campaign).......groupthink is a real problem, that is getting worse according to my friends that just couldn't quit the party, no matter how much they disagreed with it.

This is also what I have seen.  Someone in the party with moderate views gets blasted by the conservative base.  It has nothing to do with not finding someone because they are 55+ but more to do with the conservative base blasting them if they state their moderate views.