So at what point does Molly/TR realize that Escobar and his sub .600 ops has no business in the DH/LF spot?

[ashbury]

Eventually figure out a way to Trade some scrub to Atlanta so we can put Graham in AAA for a bit and call up Oliveros

You still have to keep Graham on the 40-man or lose him on waivers, so who do you drop in order to add Oliveros? Also Atlanta won't accept a scrub, such as the guy you would drop for Oliveros.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

You still have to keep Graham on the 40-man or lose him on waivers, so who do you drop in order to add Oliveros? Also Atlanta won't accept a scrub, such as the guy you would drop for Oliveros.

Bernier is still on the 40-man roster.  As is Schafer.  (And of course, Stauffer.)

 

Not that I endorse Dave's plan -- I think the team can continue stashing Graham in the back of the pen (with a quick DL hook) and still get Oliveros a look.

[ashbury]

Bernier is still on the 40-man roster.  As is Schafer.  (And of course, Stauffer.)

 

Not that I endorse Dave's plan -- I think the team can continue stashing Graham in the back of the pen (with a quick DL hook) and still get Oliveros a look.

Any of these could work. I was just responding to the notion that stashing JR in AAA accomplishes anything.

[dxpavelka]

 

It is ridiculous, and what does Santana have to do to get sent down?

Play on a team that doesn't have Escobar as it's next option at his position,

[bird]

 

It's actually not an insulting portrayal, an insulting portrayal would be to imply that they do care about the DH production currently and continue to play Escobar there out of incompetence. I'm not sure why we need to hijack this topic/thread over the use of the word punt, because it somehow places some blame of the situation on Molitor and TR. Which is bizzarre because TR and Molitor are the two guys that actively are choosing to run out Escobar at DH (which is a terrible baseball decision that anyone can see)

 

Now, that boils down to two options:

1. They are "punting" the DH "best or better" option in the recent past, present and near future (hopefully not for two long)

2. They for some reason think that Escobar is a better DH option then Arcia, Pinto, Vargas, AAAA player off waivers, Rosario, etc.

 

I'm going with 1 since I think TR and Molitor both know what they are doing, if it was #2 I would be advocating for them both to be fired.

 

 

My Lord. Go back to my original post please, and please stop accusing me of hijacking the thread on the basis of the words, everyone. Geez.

 

The basis of my first post was about what you just very clearly stated: that they continue to play Escobar at DH out of incompetence, and that it's a terrible baseball decision that anyone can see.

 

Even though I also disagree with the decision, I don't see it as a sign of incompetence, and having little understanding of the rationale in play here on Paulie's part, I think it would be arrogant on my part to bash the decision as a terrible one that anyone can see. 

 

Just sayin'

[Mike Sixel]

I don't see one person here saying TR and Molitor are incompetent. You are extrapolating meaning that just isn't there.

 

Besides, it is a message board. Do you really think they care what we type? Do you really think they feel dissed? Do you really take this all so seriously, that you can't see it is just a discussion?

 

and yes, you are changing the subject, you seem to be the only one that doesn't realize this.

[jimmer]

 

Play on a team that doesn't have Escobar as it's next option at his position,

Is it sad that I miss Cristian Guzman?  He's the last Twins shortstop, besides the one year of Hardy, that I really enjoyed watching play the spot.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Any of these could work. I was just responding to the notion that stashing JR in AAA accomplishes anything.

Agreed, we already have several relievers stashed in AAA.

[DaveW]

I miss nishioka

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Play on a team that doesn't have Escobar as it's next option at his position,

Shouldn't it be the reverse?  Santana should be more likely to get send down because we have Escobar to take his place.

 

A team with a lack of viable shortstops (say, the 2011-2013 Twins) would be more likely to have to suffer through the current Santana leash.

[Blackjack]

Another thing I forgot to mention earlier that Ryan said in reference to the 13 man pitching staff is that "things are going well right now", meaning that they are winning, if its not broke don't fix it.  If they lose all four games in Boston you guys will problable get your wish and who's ever hot will get called up.

 

I've also heard more than once that "they're just trying to get Escobar going", get him some at bats, and if that happens to be at DH or LF, so be it.  

 

The whole Vargas/Arcia/Pinto argument that they'd be a better DH, even playing poorly, than Escobar is true but I think the Twins are looking at the big, long-range picture, give the young guys in AAA a lesson ala Hicks that it takes more than swinging a big bat in batting practice to play in the big time.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Another thing I forgot to mention earlier that Ryan said in reference to the 13 man pitching staff is that "things are going well right now", meaning that they are winning, if its not broke don't fix it.  If they lose all four games in Boston you guys will problable get your wish and who's ever hot will get called up.

 

I've also heard more than once that "they're just trying to get Escobar going", get him some at bats, and if that happens to be at DH or LF, so be it.  

 

The whole Vargas/Arcia/Pinto argument that they'd be a better DH, even playing poorly, than Escobar is true but I think the Twins are looking at the big, long-range picture, give the young guys in AAA a lesson ala Hicks that it takes more than swinging a big bat in batting practice to play in the big time.

 

That is a terrible business philosophy...."if it ain't broke, don't fix it". A terrible philosophy. Entire books and treatises and classes exist showing this over and over.

 

Just curious, but where do Arcia AND Vargas both play in the next three years? There is not room for both. figure out one to have here now, and one in AAA.

[drjim]

 

Here is where I start to have a problem.  Is Ryan a reasonable and thoughtful guy?  Absolutely.  But he uses the same handful of phrases as his reasons - "not forcing his way up", "we want to see him do a couple different things", "He's a work in progress" or whatever other buzzword he wants.  And in isolation they are reasonable, the problem comes in when you start to look how the same buzzword/justification is used in different situations.

 

This is when the whole logical structure breaks down and, I feel, that most of what he says publicly is just smart nonsense.  And by that I mean he's not really telling you anything of meaning, but he's making it sound like he is.  It's smart on his part because there is value in him hiding the real reasons.  But please don't tell me what he says on the radio show has much meaning.  What is done is far more significant.  

 

And what is being done right now?  Two guys who are not playing well (for a stretch much longer than 10 games by the way) are being run out there every day.  Sometimes in lieu of a much better player.  (DH)  While the pretense for this is "no one is forcing their way up".  If what Vargas is doing isn't forcing his way up, I'm not sure what he could possibly do.  He's absolutely slaughtering the baseball while we waste the DH spot on a utility guy and our SS flounders.  

 

I like Ryan.  I'm happy with the overall job he's doing.  But the logic on the SS/DH/LF roster decisions is absolutely mind boggling and his placating answers on a radio show don't fix that.  

 

Why would you waste your time literally parsing the words of Ryan? That's a fool's errand. And yes, actions of course matter and should be the basis of judgement. Who would or has said otherwise?

 

 

[drjim]

 

The whole Vargas/Arcia/Pinto argument that they'd be a better DH, even playing poorly, than Escobar is true but I think the Twins are looking at the big, long-range picture, give the young guys in AAA a lesson ala Hicks that it takes more than swinging a big bat in batting practice to play in the big time.

 

This strikes as the most obvious of all points. All this comparing of Vargas to Escobar misses the point of what they are doing. Vargas/Arcia/Pinto will be up when they are up and ready to roll, not when they can slightly outproduce Escobar. They are winning but still trying balance development with that, which is the right move this season.

[Mike Sixel]

Except

 

a: you never know someone is ready for sure

b: there is not room for all three, and there never will be, probably. so have one up here now, hitting

c: they should be trying to win when they are good, last year, when they didn't do any of this playing for the future, they tried to win. So, what exactly is the strategy here?

[jimmer]

.333/.395/.615.

[spinowner]

 

This strikes as the most obvious of all points. All this comparing of Vargas to Escobar misses the point of what they are doing. Vargas/Arcia/Pinto will be up when they are up and ready to roll, not when they can slightly outproduce Escobar. They are winning but still trying balance development with that, which is the right move this season.

Concur. Player development trumps win-loss record this season. The Twins are still rebuilding. The major league team's record is a pleasant surprise but the primary objective of this organization is to become a perennial strong contender.

[drjim]

 

Except

 

a: you never know someone is ready for sure

b: there is not room for all three, and there never will be, probably. so have one up here now, hitting

c: they should be trying to win when they are good, last year, when they didn't do any of this playing for the future, they tried to win. So, what exactly is the strategy here?

 

a. All three have had a decent amount of at bats in mlb, theTwins have a pretty good idea of what they are doing at the moment and what needs to be worked on before they are ready. In recent years they have developed Dozier and Plouffe into pretty good hitters with less than linear development. They might have a specific plan of what they are trying to do with these hitters.

 

b. Arcia is not ready, Pinto is struggling, and they presumedly have a specific plan for Vargas right now. So this point can be flipped just as easily.

 

c. They are trying to win, and they are trying to develop. Balancing that can tilt certain ways depending on the specific situation.

[drjim]

 

.333/.395/.615.

 

Hope he can keep it up and bring it to the bigs when he is recalled.

[h2oface]

 

At AAA?, why? It's not like it's his first rodeo down there. I just question what there is for him to prove down there and how it's going to help him against big league pitching. 

The first rodeo in AAA already addressed...... I don't think he needs to be there, and I also think the Twins need him on the roster and would benefit greatly, especially considering the other options. For Ryan to say he is not forcing his way back is baffling. The numbers are posted previously. Maybe it is his 12 Ks in 39 ABs. The same tunnel vision used with BBs for Meyer last year. Ignore the OPS but focus on the Ks. Ks don't cause double plays. It could be worse.

[Mike Sixel]

Dozier and Plouffe developed in the majors, not AAA, right?

[h2oface]

 

 -- I think the team can continue stashing Graham in the back of the pen (with a quick DL hook) and still get Oliveros a look.

Graham could be more than stashed. He could be used more. He has been quite good and especially the last few outings, including 3 high pressure innings of 95-98 mph fastballs in the 9th-11th when the game was tied in Pittsburgh.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

This strikes as the most obvious of all points. All this comparing of Vargas to Escobar misses the point of what they are doing. Vargas/Arcia/Pinto will be up when they are up and ready to roll, not when they can slightly outproduce Escobar. They are winning but still trying balance development with that, which is the right move this season.

Concur. Player development trumps win-loss record this season. The Twins are still rebuilding. The major league team's record is a pleasant surprise but the primary objective of this organization is to become a perennial strong contender.

Ouch! First place on June 1st and people are applauding Terry Ryan for punting the season away! Are the guys in the dugout aware of this?

[drjim]

 

Dozier and Plouffe developed in the majors, not AAA, right?

 

They both returned to AAA after debuting in the majors. I suspect you know this.

[Mike Sixel]

 

They both returned to AAA after debuting in the majors. I suspect you know this.

 

You are correct, and no, I had forgotten the Dozier went back down actually. My bad.

[drjim]

 

Ouch! First place on June 1st and people are applauding Terry Ryan for punting the season away! Are the guys in the dugout aware of this?

 

Who said anything about punting (OK lots of people have been arguing definitions and semantics on punting, but not my comment)? This move is to get Vargas better for later in the season as much as the future.

[h2oface]

 

Bernier is still on the 40-man roster.  As is Schafer.  (And of course, Stauffer.)

Atlanta already figured out to not have Schafer on the 40 man. It took them two times to do it and get it right, though.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Why would you waste your time literally parsing the words of Ryan? That's a fool's errand. And yes, actions of course matter and should be the basis of judgement. Who would or has said otherwise?

 

Considering you and others are telling us that his radio shows are the beacon of reason into these decisions, I would think the content of what he's saying matters quite a bit.

 

And, again, you and others are getting frustrated at criticisms levied at what the Twins are doing and justifying the Twins stance based on what they are saying.  That's part of the root of the problem here.

 

From what I can see, there isn't a very good justification for the current roster construction.  Vargas was trying to adjust to big league pitching, particularly big league off-speed pitching.  You really think he's seeing that in AAA?

 

I believe the send-down of Vargas has less to do with his development and more about the team's desire to play certain guys and utilize the DH spot in a different way.

[drjim]

 

Considering you and others are telling us that his radio shows are the beacon of reason into these decisions, I would think the content of what he's saying matters quite a bit.

 

And, again, you and others are getting frustrated at criticisms levied at what the Twins are doing and justifying the Twins stance based on what they are saying.  That's part of the root of the problem here.

 

From what I can see, there isn't a very good justification for the current roster construction.  Vargas was trying to adjust to big league pitching, particularly big league off-speed pitching.  You really think he's seeing that in AAA?

 

I believe the send-down of Vargas has less to do with his development and more about the team's desire to play certain guys and utilize the DH spot in a different way.

 

I didn't call it the "beacon of reason" those are your words. I said I was impressed with what he says. I am. I find it a good and enjoyable show, but I don't hang on every word and see it as literal truth.

 

And I'm not getting all that frustrated with the criticisms. I'm just not sold on the solutions.

 

And I think you are wrong about the Vargas demotion. It is 100% about him and his development.

[bird]

 

I don't see one person here saying TR and Molitor are incompetent. You are extrapolating meaning that just isn't there.

 

Besides, it is a message board. Do you really think they care what we type? Do you really think they feel dissed? Do you really take this all so seriously, that you can't see it is just a discussion?

 

and yes, you are changing the subject, you seem to be the only one that doesn't realize this.

 

You only have to back to comment #83 to find your first example. It couldn't be more clear. I'll remind you that examples are prevalent. You yourself have called Ryan clueless, called his honesty into question, and have repeatedly said things that could ONLY be interpreted as characterizing him as an incompetent. It's a favorite ploy of some to criticize a decision and extrapolate it to mean someone (usually Ryan) is incompetent. But I will say you've toned your criticism down, and I thank you for that, in all seriousness.

 

This is a message board. And until twinsnorth49 or someone else bans me, I'm going to care. Whether a victim is present or not, it's wrong to demonize them. It's wrong to mischaracterize things and intentionally portray someone in a bad light. I don't care who the victim is, that kind of bashing offends me. So yes, I'm going to push back and ask whether there might be a different perspective when a verbal lynching gets underway. If you feel that hijacks things, so be it.