How Long for Pinto?

[Mike Sixel]

No idea who calls what pitchers, but looking at gamecast I couldn't help but wonder if the Twins know anything about the high strike and strikeouts....because every pitch was waaaaaaaaay down.

 

It doesn't matter if they have bigger problems or not, they are not winning anything this year.......and they should be playing for 2-4 years from now. So, I don't care if he takes at bats from Suzuki or not. 

 

IMO, Pinto should catch about 1/3 the games up here, until they decide to make him the guy that catches 2/3 of the games up here. He can DH other times.....but worrying about "not taking Suzuki's awesome bat out of the lineup"* seems like a bad reason not to have Pinto up here and playing.

 

*a: no one said that, sort of

b: it isn't that awesome, really

[howieramone2]

 

No idea who calls what pitchers, but looking at gamecast I couldn't help but wonder if the Twins know anything about the high strike and strikeouts....because every pitch was waaaaaaaaay down.

 

It doesn't matter if they have bigger problems or not, they are not winning anything this year.......and they should be playing for 2-4 years from now. So, I don't care if he takes at bats from Suzuki or not. 

 

IMO, Pinto should catch about 1/3 the games up here, until they decide to make him the guy that catches 2/3 of the games up here. He can DH other times.....but worrying about "not taking Suzuki's awesome bat out of the lineup"* seems like a bad reason not to have Pinto up here and playing.

 

*a: no one said that, sort of

b: it isn't that awesome, really

 

Remember you said that. It's always gratifying when another member of the board signs onto the rebuilding process.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Remember you said that. It's always gratifying when another member of the board signs onto the rebuilding process.

 

Everyone is on board with rebuilding, what other choice is there?

[Mike Sixel]

I've been asking for a rebuild for 3 years......

[jokin]

 

Remember you said that. It's always gratifying when another member of the board signs onto the rebuilding process.

 

The general drumbeat of criticism directed towards the FO by most on TD has been because THEY haven't "signed onto the rebuilding process."

 

And I believe it was your "predecessor" who said that the "Parade" would start in 2015.  

[Willihammer]

I don't think everyone has the same ideas about rebuilding. Particularly when it comes to FAs. There are some that seem to think a FA signing by definition is counterproductive to a rebuild where others tend to look at it as another avenue of growth. I know I was in favor of the Twins making a small number of high dollar FA signings in recent years, the type likely to return something in trade or a QO, while making the product more enjoyable in the interim.

[Mike Sixel]

I agree on that, you can sign free agents in a rebuild.

[jokin]

 

I don't think everyone has the same ideas about rebuilding. Particularly when it comes to FAs. There are some that seem to think a FA signing by definition is counterproductive to a rebuild where others tend to look at it as another avenue of growth. I know I was in favor of the Twins making a small number of high dollar FA signings in recent years, the type likely to return something in trade or a QO, while making the product more enjoyable in the interim.

 

 

 

I agree on that, you can sign free agents in a rebuild.

 

A team flush with cash because of new stadium and media revenues- and supposedly with a successful  reputation for identifying talent- should be signing quality FAs in a rebuild, this can serve to greatly shortening the rebuild cycle and make you less dependent on the unpredictable nature of prospect maturation rates. It's now especially true with the new opportunities to gain Competitive Balance Round draft picks and international bonus money via trade.  Plus, risk is mitigated through the maxim- there's no such thing as a bad short-term deal.

[jorgenswest]

They need to let Pinto continue to catch regularly in AAA. the next call up needs to be the last call up.

 

In another thread we might be able to make a long list of bad short term free agent signings that are continuing the cycle of mediocrity and delaying the rebuild. The Twins would have a better chance to rebuild if they didn't feel obligated to spend money.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

Probably meaningless in the Pinto debate, but the Twins traded AAA catching depth Danny Rohlfing to the Mets for cash yesterday.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/04/mets-acquire-dan-rohlfing-from-twins.html

 

at AAA, Twins have Fryer, Pinto, and Allen de San Miguel (who is on the 7 day DL) at Catcher.

 

If Pinto is called up, de San Miguel would probably be activated (unless the Twins are sending Herrmann down).

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

They need to let Pinto continue to catch regularly in AAA. the next call up needs to be the last call up.

In another thread we might be able to make a long list of bad short term free agent signings that are continuing the cycle of mediocrity and delaying the rebuild. The Twins would have a better chance to rebuild if they didn't feel obligated to spend money.

 

Why on the first sentence? Other than, because? Why does this have to be the "last time"? What makes you sure now isn't that time? 

[Brock Beauchamp]

With Vargas continuing to struggle badly, it's time to start considering a Pinto call-up. With the DH spot clear, it makes a lot more sense to call up Josmil if Molitor will start him behind the plate a couple of times a week.

[Mike Sixel]

Consider?

 

sigh. It is clear the Twins are not in rebuild mode, and are not all that interested in having young players up here to give us some hope. Or, they just hate Pinto for some reason.

[stringer bell]

I think Pinto is up before the homestand is over.  At the expense of .........that is the tough part.  Right now, I am going to say it will be at the expense of Vargas. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Consider?

 

sigh. It is clear the Twins are not in rebuild mode, and are not all that interested in having young players up here to give us some hope. Or, they just hate Pinto for some reason.

The Twins have a young player up... His name is Kennys Vargas. If Pinto gets ABs in Minnesota, it's going to be (mostly) at the expense of Kenny Vargas.

 

It's possible that Pinto will be the Twins starting catcher at some point in the season but I wouldn't hold my breath. Perkins had some blunt words about Pinto's defense last year and I doubt he's the only one who doesn't trust him behind the plate. If Pinto becomes the Twins starting catcher, it'll be a slow process as he proves he can catch at the major league level.

[Physics Guy]

Yep, have to agree that Vargas gets sent down right now if Pinto is called up.  He could use some AAA time to get his swing right again.  Playing some at 1B wouldn't hurt also.

[Mike Sixel]

The only way to know if he's better, if you are one of the pitchers that doesn't trust him.......is to see him up here. 

 

If the reason he's down, and Herrmann is up is that they don't trust him to catch, then trade him. Or, call him up and see what he has. But keeping him down does not help the team at all. 

[MileHighTwinsFan]

Seems like swapping Pinto and Vargas is the right thing to do.   Would have been nice to make that move today to have another right handed weapon against Price.   

[kab21]

Are we going to suggest that Pinto gets sent down if he struggles for 3-4 weeks?

 

It seems like a knee jerk reaction to send down a really good hitting prospect after 61 PA's.

[Mike Sixel]

Pinto should be on the roster instead of herrmann or Nunez, to me, this isn't about Vargas. And, Vargas was never much of a "good hitting" prospect. He's always been on the fringe of prospects. Many national experts don't like his swing/approach all that much.

 

But, it isn't about Vargas to me at all....Pinto should be catching twice a week. If he also DH's once a week, great.....

[kab21]

 

Pinto should be on the roster instead of herrmann or Nunez, to me, this isn't about Vargas. And, Vargas was never much of a "good hitting" prospect. He's always been on the fringe of prospects. Many national experts don't like his swing/approach all that much.

 

But, it isn't about Vargas to me at all....Pinto should be catching twice a week. If he also DH's once a week, great.....

4 different people have suggested that Vargas should be sent down just on the 4th page of this thread.  That doesn't make it as clear cut as you indicate.

 

Vargas isn't a great hitting prospect.  That's true but he is still a very good hitting prospect.  One of the reasons that he's been on the fringe is that he's basically positionless.  Yes, his approach isn't flawless but if it was then he would be a phenomenal prospect.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Are we going to suggest that Pinto gets sent down if he struggles for 3-4 weeks?

 

It seems like a knee jerk reaction to send down a really good hitting prospect after 61 PA's.

If Vargas was merely struggling, I'd let him work it out... But his OPS is around .460 and he's striking out nearly one out of three plate appearances.

 

I don't know if I'd make the move today but it'd be on my radar and I'd strongly consider pulling the trigger if Vargas doesn't put it together in the Detroit series.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Pinto should be on the roster instead of herrmann or Nunez, to me, this isn't about Vargas. 

Pinto can play one position on the diamond and by most accounts, he plays it very badly. If he's going to get regular PAs, it's going to be at the DH position with some catching starts mixed in.

 

We've already played the "call up Pinto and let him sit on the bench" game a few times. If Pinto gets the call, he needs to play regularly and that will have to come at the expense of Vargas, at least in the short term.

 

If he's going to get the call and sit 3-4 days a week, he should just stay in Rochester and continue working on his defensive game.

[bird]

Pinto has been working at getting better as a catcher for a decade in pro ball. There are some skeptics here regarding whether "handling a pitching staff" is a real thing. I find that curious, given that it seems to be the first thing that managers, coaches, and players, especially pitchers, talk about when they discuss a catcher. It seems to me that handling a pitching staff is much more important than any of the other things. I'd be very surprised if Pinto ever turned into an acceptable MLB backup catcher. He's been taken to task on virtually every aspect of the job: footwork, framing, pitch-calling, you name it. 

 

I wouldn't bet on either Suzuki or Pinto being part of the future past 2015, and wouldn't be at all surprised to see one of them traded during the season and the other traded during the off-season. Maybe Pinto comes up for a spell to DH while Vargas figures things out (or not) at AAA. Frankly, I don't see a move like that as a considerable one here in 2015. And I question whether Pinto will end up giving you even average production from the DH position for any length of time.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Are we going to suggest that Pinto gets sent down if he struggles for 3-4 weeks?

 

It seems like a knee jerk reaction to send down a really good hitting prospect after 61 PA's.

Pinto has almost 400 PA at AAA.  Vargas has zero.

 

Vargas could still probably benefit from some AAA time.  Same for Santana.  And not unlike Pinto last year (prior to which he only had 75 PA at AAA), or Hicks in 2013 (and 2014, 2015...).

[Mike Sixel]

 

Pinto can play one position on the diamond and by most accounts, he plays it very badly. If he's going to get regular PAs, it's going to be at the DH position with some catching starts mixed in.

 

We've already played the "call up Pinto and let him sit on the bench" game a few times. If Pinto gets the call, he needs to play regularly and that will have to come at the expense of Vargas, at least in the short term.

 

If he's going to get the call and sit 3-4 days a week, he should just stay in Rochester and continue working on his defensive game.

 

so he's more valuable in Rochester, not playing at all? Doesn't make any sense to me. 

[Willihammer]

Suzuki:

 

.204/.291/.327

1/12 CS

1 PB, 8 "WPs"

staff ERA: 4.33 (25th)

 

Pinto's PT does not need to come at the expense of Vargas.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

so he's more valuable in Rochester, not playing at all? Doesn't make any sense to me. 

In the short term, he's more valuable in Rochester if the Twins think he can become an MLB catcher in time. The Twins aren't going to shift Suzuki out of the starting catcher role in April so if Josmil is going to get regular ABs in Minnesota right now, it's going to come at the expense of Vargas.

 

I wanted to see the Twins migrate Pinto into more of a catching role last season but somebody was adamantly against it. I don't know if that was Gardenhire, Ryan, or both but it didn't happen and it's not going to happen in April of this season, either.

 

If Molitor is willing to name Pinto backup catcher and leave the door open for Josmil to earn more playing time behind the dish as the season progresses, I'm all for it (as I was last season). If management is reluctant to do that based on what they think of Pinto's defense, then he should stay in Rochester in hopes that he'll learn a few things and not be a total menace behind the plate. If they have no faith in Pinto ever becoming an MLB catcher, then he should be in Minnesota today.

 

What drove me nuts last year was how much Pinto was jerked around. He often sat in Minnesota and didn't even catch much when he was demoted to the minors. At least he's catching again, which gives me hope the Twins think he can be an adequate defensive catcher in time.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

If management is reluctant to do that based on what they think of Pinto's defense, then he should stay in Rochester in hopes that he'll learn a few things and not be a total menace behind the plate.

I sort of agree with everything you said, but at this point, I think the biggest hurdle to Pinto being accepted as a catcher might not be the few extra innings of AAA practice, but rather actually getting familiar with the MLB pitchers and coaches.  They are creatures of habit, and they generally prefer to work with the guy who's caught in MLB before.

 

That's not to say that Pinto is now or ever will be perfect behind the plate, or even the equal of Suzuki.  But the trick with Pinto now seems to be getting him some opportunity to catch in MLB.  Even if it's just a part-time thing, he's never going to clear that hurdle of acceptance by catching AAA guys (which he has largely done in his time in MLB too -- Deduno, Pedro Hernandez, etc.).

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I sort of agree with everything you said, but at this point, I think the biggest hurdle to Pinto being accepted as a catcher might not be the few extra innings of AAA practice, but rather actually getting familiar with the MLB pitchers and coaches.  They are creatures of habit, and they generally prefer to work with the guy who's caught in MLB before.

 

That's not to say that Pinto is now or ever will be perfect behind the plate, or even the equal of Suzuki.  But the trick with Pinto now seems to be getting him some opportunity to catch in MLB.  Even if it's just a part-time thing, he's never going to clear that hurdle of acceptance by catching AAA guys (which he has largely done in his time in MLB too -- Deduno, Pedro Hernandez, etc.).

There's certainly merit in familiarity and logging time with MLB pitchers... My main sticking point is the nebulous nature of catching. More than any other position, it can't be defined by statistics but what statistics we have suggest Pinto is a very bad catcher. Therefore, we have to rely on the eyeball test and we simply can't do that with Pinto in Rochester... But the Twins can.

 

With Vargas struggling so badly, the door is open for Pinto. I hope the Twins have enough confidence in him to give him a shot at catching a few times a week and DHing a few more. To open the season, the Twins didn't really have room for Pinto but with their DH situation the way it is right now, they can fit Josmil into the lineup on a regular basis and not waste him on the bench, which has always been my biggest issue with having him on the Minnesota roster. The guy needs to play regularly.