Bryant sent to minors/called up

[mnfireman]

If the Cubs or any other team wants to keep a player on the ML team or send him to AAA its their choice. The MLBPA cannot tell teams who should be on their roster.

[Willihammer]

 

They'll survive the two or three weeks Bryant is in Iowa. 

 

Honestly, I'd be mad at my team if they gave up a year of service time for twelve games at the start of the season.

If you buy into the Vegas over/under projections, the Cubs are projected to win 82.5 games. That seems like a pretty critical spot in the win curve to not bring your best 25 north.

[tobi0040]

 

If you buy into the Vegas over/under projections, the Cubs are projected to win 82.5 games. That seems like a pretty critical spot in the win curve to not bring your best 25 north.

 

I have the under.

[Don't Feed the Greed Guy]

Get to Des Moines, Iowa while you can, preferably via Cedar Rapids! I was fortunate enough to see two Cubs games down in Arizona--including the infamous Will Ferrell game. Good stuff.

 

I agree with the anti-Boras rants. Go Cubs! And, go Bryant, Russell, and the rest of the Cubs stacked farm system. I'd love to see a Wrigley-Target Field World Series in 2018!

[nicksaviking]

 

Not really -- that's the problem. Any service time theshold you set will have teams keeping players just below it.

About the only thing that would work might be to tie FA/arb to draft age instead.

 

They could change the formula completely.  Something along your second idea would be easy enough.  Service time is tied to calendar years, starting in August or perhaps September.  Any player called up prior to August/September, no matter how many games played, has his clock start that season.  Players called up after August 1st/September 1st will be considered 1st year players for the following season.  Team's aren't going to be likely to keep MLB ready players down nearly all year then, the temptation will then be to screw with service time around July for any mid-season call up, however that's when teams are still trying to position themselves for playoff runs and thinking about the trade deadline.

[biggentleben]

See, that's just it, I'm not anti-Boras whatsoever.  The guy does what he needs to do to get the best for his clients in a business where his clients are drastically undervalued in the entire scheme of the money coming into the game.  He doesn't cut "home-town" deals for guys because he knows that the team they're playing for has typically already reaped tons of value by paying a guy $500K for production that would cost at least 10-30 times that on the free agent market.  If I were a major league player, I'd want Boras as my guy any day of the week because he is the absolute best at what he does.

 

All that said, when you have taken nearly every single player to free agency instead of signing an extension, the team who has your player will ensure they get as many years of team-controlled cheap play as possible before they have to bid for your client's services on the open market. So, Boras really only has himself to blame for Bryant being in minor league camp right now, but I don't think any of his clients would want him to change a thing about his approach.

[ashbury]

 

If the players union doesn't like it they can negoitate a different deal in the next CBA.  Of course that likely means giving up something else that they won't want to give up. 

Or, add 40-50 days to the thresholds for arbitration and free agency, to get rid of the perverse incentives demonstrated in the current system, and get something else big that they want in exchange.

 

The important thing is for both sides to acknowledge the perverse incentives, and something will be worked out. Teams can't market themselves as well when they have to open the season without a key prospect they want to showcase to their fans. But making arb/free-agency any sooner than they already are probably is a nonstarter from the owners' perspective.

[nicksaviking]

 

 

 

All that said, when you have taken nearly every single player to free agency instead of signing an extension, the team who has your player will ensure they get as many years of team-controlled cheap play as possible before they have to bid for your client's services on the open market. So, Boras really only has himself to blame for Bryant being in minor league camp right now, but I don't think any of his clients would want him to change a thing about his approach.

 

Yup, this is really the true issue with Boras.  Are owners greedy? Duh, it's a given and won't change.  But this isn't an issue of greed, it's an issue of keeping a player for as long as the CBA allows, why wouldn't every team and every fan want to do that? Like you said, the Cubs may be receptive to brining Bryant up if he had an agent that was willing to discuss an early career extension.  He doesn't.

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

All that said, when you have taken nearly every single player to free agency instead of signing an extension, the team who has your player will ensure they get as many years of team-controlled cheap play as possible before they have to bid for your client's services on the open market. So, Boras really only has himself to blame for Bryant being in minor league camp right now, but I don't think any of his clients would want him to change a thing about his approach.

A quick Google search returns these notable Boras clients who signed extensions, buying out at least one free agent year:

 

Jared Weaver

Carlos Gonzalez

Elvis Andrus

Carlos Gomez

Ryan Madson

Carlos Pena

Derek Lowe

Jason Varitek

[biggentleben]

 

A quick Google search returns these notable Boras clients who signed extensions, buying out at least one free agent year:

 

Jared Weaver

Carlos Gonzalez

Elvis Andrus

Carlos Gomez

Ryan Madson

Carlos Pena

Derek Lowe

Jason Varitek

 

Not all of them were with Boras when their deal was signed, but even then, the words I chose were intentional "nearly all".  He has taken nearly all of his clients to free agency.  You found 8 of the thousands of clients he represents.

[dxpavelka]

 

I don't feel for Bryant, I feel for Cubs fans!

I don't.  They have a choice. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Bryant held out after being drafted until 2 days before the signing deadline (reportedly for the same money originally offered, BTW.)

Maybe he would have debuted last fall if he signed the day after the draft.

So maybe he and Boras should consider their own role when they complain about the system.

I have no sympathy for Boras or Bryant, but "2 days before the deadline" overstates this argument.  The deadline is barely a month after the draft now.  He signed before the all-star break in 2013, the same day as the next college hitter chosen (#6 pick Colin Moran).  It was only 3 weeks after Kohl Stewart signed with the Twins.  It doesn't seem unusual.

 

Bryant made it all the way to the AFL that fall (and dominated), and I doubt that he would have advanced any farther that year with 3 extra weeks or whatever.  And I doubt his pro career start date was any consideration by the time the Cubs opted to let him finish his 2014 season on September 1st, after 2.5 months at AAA with a 1.036 OPS, rather than give him the customary call-up.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Not all of them were with Boras when their deal was signed, but even then, the words I chose were intentional "nearly all".  He has taken nearly all of his clients to free agency.  You found 8 of the thousands of clients he represents.

He certainly doesn't represent thousands of baseball players who are offered MLB contract extensions. Does it really matter for this point if Boras represents hundreds (I have no idea how many) of minor leaguers who will never reach the majors?  Or even major leaguers like Mike Pelfrey, whose teams perhaps never sought an extension?

 

And I am reasonably sure that list of 8 is correct.  Below are my sources.  You are welcome to disprove, if you like.

 

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2013/04/04/jacoby-ellsbury-on-elvis-andrus-scott-boras-and-extensions/

 

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php/115970-Boras-Clients-Who-Signed-Extensions-Prior-To-FA

[nicksaviking]

 

I have no sympathy for Boras or Bryant, but "2 days before the deadline" overstates this argument.  The deadline is barely a month after the draft now.  He signed before the all-star break in 2013, the same day as the next college hitter chosen (#6 pick Colin Moran).

 

Very true, but Bryant and Boras were taking the expected Boras hard line and did take negotiations right to the wire.  The Cubs probably at that time had a good idea what cards they were being dealt should they want to talk extension later.  Those cards likely being a duece and a seven.

 

However on the otherhand, Appel signed early and at a discount.  He was/is also represented by Boras.  That might indicate to a team he would be willing to sign an extension down the road.

 

Of course now that I listed those two different examples from the same draft, it may indicate that the player is more to blame than the agent.  Which makes me want to delete this post, because I'm not much for defending Boras.

[tobi0040]

 

He certainly doesn't represent thousands of baseball players who are offered MLB contract extensions. Does it really matter for this point if Boras represents hundreds (I have no idea how many) of minor leaguers who will never reach the majors?  Or even major leaguers like Mike Pelfrey, whose teams perhaps never sought an extension?

 

And I am reasonably sure that list of 8 is correct.  Below are my sources.  You are welcome to disprove, if you like.

 

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2013/04/04/jacoby-ellsbury-on-elvis-andrus-scott-boras-and-extensions/

 

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php/115970-Boras-Clients-Who-Signed-Extensions-Prior-To-FA

 

And as the article points out, most of those guys that signed extensions did so against the advice of Boras.  My understanding is Boras was quite unhappy with Jared Weaver.

 

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Very true, but Bryant and Boras were taking the expected Boras hard line and did take negotiations right to the wire.

Did Colin Moran take the expected Boras hard line too?  He was the next college hitter chosen in that draft, and signed the same day as Bryant.  Except he was represented by Casey Close.

 

I don't think waiting a month to sign is unusual for top draft choices who aren't signing under-slot or don't have pre-draft deals in place.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

And as the article points out, most of those guys that signed extensions did so against the advice of Boras.  My understanding is Boras was quite unhappy with Jared Weaver.

Boras is a tough cookie and I don't particularly care for him, but I'm not sure how much of this stuff is media narrative.

[tobi0040]

 

Boras is a tough cookie and I don't particularly care for him, but I'm not sure how much of this stuff is media narrative.

 

I am sure that the guy uses the media for his own reputation.  But in the case of Jared Weaver, he acknowledged going against his agents advice.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Boras is a tough cookie and I don't particularly care for him, but I'm not sure how much of this stuff is media narrative.

 

The larger point you're missing because you keep getting stuck on particulars is that Boras relishes in making it tough for teams to resign his players at anything other than inflated, open market prices.  And even then he often pushes his clients that direction.

 

It's lucrative for both him and his clients and he doesn't hide from that at all.  The consequence of that is that if teams KNOW he's representing one of their critical long-term assets...they're going to put off that contract apocalypse as long as they reasonably can.

 

You can't blame the Cubs for being smart about team control when the agent in question blatently complicates retaining team control.  Again, it's both parties operating within their control to do what is best for them, nothing more and nothing less.

[Pius Jefferson]

 

If you buy into the Vegas over/under projections, the Cubs are projected to win 82.5 games. That seems like a pretty critical spot in the win curve to not bring your best 25 north.

 

Cub fans will survive not having Bryant to start the season. 

 

There's going to be critical spots throughout the season. Not having the ability to see into the future, I don't want to project the first twelves games meaning more than twelve games later in the season. 

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

They could change the formula completely.  Something along your second idea would be easy enough.  Service time is tied to calendar years, starting in August or perhaps September.  Any player called up prior to August/September, no matter how many games played, has his clock start that season.  Players called up after August 1st/September 1st will be considered 1st year players for the following season.  Team's aren't going to be likely to keep MLB ready players down nearly all year then, the temptation will then be to screw with service time around July for any mid-season call up, however that's when teams are still trying to position themselves for playoff runs and thinking about the trade deadline.

 

So their clock keeps ticking when they get sent down b/c they weren't ready? Can't wait for the 'promote too slow' issues when that happens.  There isn't really a right or wrong answer here.  You have to have a threshold somewhere, and teams will take advantage of it.  But as others pointed out, it's in their best interests to do so.  I get that.  Sucks for the player.  I get that too.  But I suspect Bryant knew this was a real possibility when he signed with Boras, b/c at the end of the day, he wants to maximize his bottom line.  So do the Cubs. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

 

 

Of course now that I listed those two different examples from the same draft, it may indicate that the player is more to blame than the agent.  Which makes me want to delete this post, because I'm not much for defending Boras.

 

I think we all forget this.  When Joe Crede tells Scott Boras that he wants to play for the Twins, Boras gets it done.  Boras may take most of his players to FA to maximize their return, but at the end of the day, if the player likes where he's at, an extension will be signed.  Most of Boras's players though want him to maximize their bottom line.  Nothing wrong with that.  Just as there isn't much wrong with the Cubs recognizing that they will get him for 7 years at a reasonable price instead of 6.

[USAFChief]

Now the MLBPA has gotten involved, threatening litigation.

 

I wonder how union member Mike Olt feels about that...his union using his dues trying to force the a cubs to give his job to a non union member.

 

I might have something to say about that if it were me.

[tobi0040]

 

Now the MLBPA has gotten involved, threatening litigation.
 

 

These are the same guys that refused drug testing forever right?

[dxpavelka]

 

He certainly doesn't represent thousands of baseball players who are offered MLB contract extensions. Does it really matter for this point if Boras represents hundreds (I have no idea how many) of minor leaguers who will never reach the majors?  Or even major leaguers like Mike Pelfrey, whose teams perhaps never sought an extension?

 

And I am reasonably sure that list of 8 is correct.  Below are my sources.  You are welcome to disprove, if you like.

 

http://fullcount.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/2013/04/04/jacoby-ellsbury-on-elvis-andrus-scott-boras-and-extensions/

 

http://forums.nyyfans.com/showthread.php/115970-Boras-Clients-Who-Signed-Extensions-Prior-To-FA

He has been doing this for 30 years so while his client list most likely doesn't number in the thousands it is certainly substantial.  When players sign with him they expect a certain level of him being a pain in the ass to management and when management signs players he represents they expect it too.  That expectation is quite often reflected in the draft position of those players as teams often drop his players down on their draft boards.  He can represent his clients however he wants but the bottom line in this situation is that he doesn't have a leg to stand on.  There is an old adage in the legal business that if the facts make your case you argue the facts, if the law makes your case you argue the law and if you've got neither you make a lot of noise.  Let the noise making begin Mr. Boras.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Now the MLBPA has gotten involved, threatening litigation.

I wonder how union member Mike Olt feels about that...his union using his dues trying to force the a cubs to give his job to a non union member.

I might have something to say about that if it were me.

While Bryant is not an official union member yet, the MLBPA negotiated the parameters of his selection and signing with the Cubs, as well as the rules and procedures regarding his potential promotion to MLB.  And when they suspect those negotiated terms are violated or simply not followed in good faith by MLB clubs, they are going to get involved.  Just like they did over the Astros Aiken/Nix draft fiasco last summer:

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/draft/report-mlbpa-files-grievance-astros-aiken-nix-marshall/

 

Trust me, teams would love nothing more than if the MLBPA disavowed all interest and jurisdiction over amateur and minor league ballplayers.  Johan Santana may never have been a Twin, and J.R. Graham could forever be property of the Braves, if that was the case.

 

 

And Olt wouldn't really lose his job -- he would almost certainly stay on the 40-man roster but be optioned to AAA as per the MLBPA's negotiated procedures.  As a benefit to Olt, though, he would receive a higher than normal AAA salary, and the Cubs would be unable to freely option him to the minors again after this season.

 

Hicks was similarly removed from the 25-man roster in favor of minor league signee Shane Robinson, all within the rules, procedures, and spirit of the agreement negotiated between the teams and the MLBPA.  

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I am sure that the guy uses the media for his own reputation.  But in the case of Jared Weaver, he acknowledged going against his agents advice.

Given that Weaver publicly made those comments, and is still represented by Boras, I suspect the service that Boras provides to players is ultimately just that: advice.

 

Players looking for top dollar probably gravitate to Boras due to his abilities, but they don't need Boras to tell them where they are happiest or when and where their family wants to stay.

[Otto von Ballpark]

For the record, I don't blame the Cubs for their decision, no more than I blame Bryant for not agreeing to stay with the Cubs for 7 years rather than 6 at this point, no more than I blame Boras for advising Bryant not to do that either.  It's a minor violation of the spirit of the rules by the team, probably worth a grievance just for warning/negotiating purposes even if it is highly unlikely to win.

 

As a fan, I am just disappointed that the system allows these types of flagrant transactional games.  Although to be fair, perhaps this system minimizes them just about as well as any similar system could, outside of full free agency for all players at all times (which would be very interesting to see, at least in some sort of alternate universe where I could see how it affects my Twins first ).

[TheLeviathan]

 

As a fan, I am just disappointed that the system allows these types of flagrant transactional games.  Although to be fair, perhaps this system minimizes them just about as well as any similar system could, outside of full free agency for all players at all times (which would be very interesting to see, at least in some sort of alternate universe where I could see how it affects my Twins first ).

 

I think that's a good point.  Some of this stuff is certainly silly gamesmanship, but I'm not sure how you create a system without that and still include agency.  Just sort of a necessary consequence of that.

[USAFChief]

 

While Bryant is not an official union member yet, the MLBPA negotiated the parameters of his selection and signing with the Cubs, as well as the rules and procedures regarding his potential promotion to MLB.  And when they suspect those negotiated terms are violated or simply not followed in good faith by MLB clubs, they are going to get involved.  Just like they did over the Astros Aiken/Nix draft fiasco last summer:

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/draft/report-mlbpa-files-grievance-astros-aiken-nix-marshall/

 

Trust me, teams would love nothing more than if the MLBPA disavowed all interest and jurisdiction over amateur and minor league ballplayers.  Johan Santana may never have been a Twin, and J.R. Graham could forever be property of the Braves, if that was the case.

 

 

And Olt wouldn't really lose his job -- he would almost certainly stay on the 40-man roster but be optioned to AAA as per the MLBPA's negotiated procedures.  As a benefit to Olt, though, he would receive a higher than normal AAA salary, and the Cubs would be unable to freely option him to the minors again after this season.

 

Hicks was similarly removed from the 25-man roster in favor of minor league signee Shane Robinson, all within the rules, procedures, and spirit of the agreement negotiated between the teams and the MLBPA.  

1.  Bryant isn't an "official" member of the MLBPA, an "unofficial" member of the MLBPA, or anything in between.

 

Someone, who IS a member of the MLBPA, will lose his MLB job if/when Bryant makes a 25 man roster.  

 

It's questionable at best, unethical at worst, for the MLBPA to advocate for a non member over a member.  While using the member's dues to do that, to boot.  Same thing for the 40 man roster...some dues paying member is going to lose his spot.

 

And I don't see how the union can negotiate the exact terms that the Cubs are taking advantage of, and then argue the Cubs are in violation or aren't "acting in good faith."  Did the union argue Travis Lee wasn't "acting in good faith" when he and his agent took advantage of the rules to be declared a free agent after the Twins honored his request and didn't offer a contract within 15 days?  Would Boras advise any of his current clients to "act in good faith" if a similar situation arose today?

 

Negotiate different terms in the next collective bargaining.  In the meantime, quit complaining about others following the rules.