Pino Optioned

[Otto von Ballpark]

Having said all that negative stuff, I agree, he's definitely no long-term answer, but.... he still presents some potential with his remaining options to be a nice deep depth MLB spot starter camped out at Rochester for the next couple of years until something better moves up the ladder.

 

I don't know -- even with the options, that's a 40-man roster spot for a 30+ year old AAA/depth guy. Looking at the list of prospects that need to be protected from Rule 5 this offseason, I'm not sure Pino should make that cut unless he can offer more than that. He has been purchased or released by various organizations each of the last 4 seasons.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Getting Pavano for him a few years ago has to be considered a very good trade for the Twins.

 

Generally loved the in-season trades by Bill Smith, up until Capps, of course. Loved the aggressiveness in dealing marginal AAA guys or longer-shot low minors guys. (We should have kept Smith away from top prospects or guys on the MLB roster, though!)

[SwainZag]

Cost him $3000 a day (about) that he's not on the major league club.

 

Sorry about that $30k, Yohan.

 

I don't think that's true. Once he was promoted to the Big League club his salary should have become guaranteed for the year. I might be wrong......but I don't think I am.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I don't think that's true. Once he was promoted to the Big League club his salary should have become guaranteed for the year. I might be wrong......but I don't think I am.

 

I'm pretty sure that's not true. It's a split contract that pro-rates his service time I thought. I do know that by merely making the 40 man, players get a bump in pay.

[jokin]

I don't know -- even with the options, that's a 40-man roster spot for a 30+ year old AAA/depth guy. Looking at the list of prospects that need to be protected from Rule 5 this offseason, I'm not sure Pino should make that cut unless he can offer more than that. He has been purchased or released by various organizations each of the last 4 seasons.

 

I'm more on your side of this point, as I said, Pino has "some potential" as a spot starter until "something better moves up the ladder". I would think that there's going to be quite a bit of roster attrition that will open up the necessary spots for Meyer, Sano Rosario, etc, and probably for a few more, as well. Which is why it would be nice to have a ML look this year at Oliveros, Hamburger, Gilmartin, Achter, et al., to see how far up they ladder they really are at this point.

[SwainZag]

I'm pretty sure that's not true. It's a split contract that pro-rates his service time I thought. I do know that by merely making the 40 man, players get a bump in pay.

 

Interesting. Maybe I was just thinking of the 40 man pay bump. I think I was thinking once a player made the 40 man roster he was automatically awarded the minimum salary which I believe is around 500K. I didn't know they pro-rate it at which level they are currently at.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I'm pretty sure that's not true. It's a split contract that pro-rates his service time I thought. I do know that by merely making the 40 man, players get a bump in pay.

 

You are correct on all counts. As a AAA veteran, Pino was probably making more than most AAA guys, and he will see another bump from being on the 40-man roster. But he will only be paid the prorated MLB minimum salary for the days he is on the MLB roster.

 

After just one day on the MLB roster, Pino qualified for lifetime healthcare. And with another 21 days or so, he should get a ~$34,000 annual pension. So I'd say it's been a pretty good year so far for ol' Yohan!

[bird]

He's been okay but that stat says more about the Twins rotation than it does Yohan Pino. There's Phil Hughes and then an extreme groundball guy. Those are the only two good pitchers in the rotation.

 

I'm not bashing Pino, I simply don't believe he's any kind of long-term answer.

 

Yeah, Pino is what he is, a #7-8 starter who's an upgrade over Walters, Hernandez, DeVries et al. Same with Johnson, a decent #6-7 guy. Both solid pick-ups this winter.

[Mike Sixel]

They get lifetime healthcare? Wow.

[Otto von Ballpark]

They get lifetime healthcare? Wow.

 

Yup! Either one day in MLB... or just move to Canada.

[diehardtwinsfan]

You are correct on all counts. As a AAA veteran, Pino was probably making more than most AAA guys, and he will see another bump from being on the 40-man roster. But he will only be paid the prorated MLB minimum salary for the days he is on the MLB roster.

 

After just one day on the MLB roster, Pino qualified for lifetime healthcare. And with another 21 days or so, he should get a ~$34,000 annual pension. So I'd say it's been a pretty good year so far for ol' Yohan!

 

21 days for 34k/yr for life... That right there is a pretty good incentive to stick it out for a couple more years.

[Otto von Ballpark]

21 days for 34k/yr for life... That right there is a pretty good incentive to stick it out for a couple more years.

 

It should be noted that the MLB pension "retirement age" is not when the player retires from baseball, but more of a traditional workforce retirement age (62, I believe). So they generally don't get the $34k/month (minimum) until then.

 

Still, the value of this (plus the lifetime healthcare) probably dwarfs anything most of these guys earned before hitting the MLB roster!

[Thegrin]

Pino is another reminder that talent should not be evaluated by the age of the player. The Twins should always be in "WIN NOW!" mode. A major league team owes it to the fans to "WIN NOW!" Why should the fans care if there are better long term prospects(Meyer and May) in AAA ? If Pino can give us results now, then we should be playing Pino.

The same argument can be made for Colabello. So what if Pino and Colabello are 30 years old? They could have several productive years at the major league level.

The Twins should always be trying to "WIN NOW!". It makes no difference if the win total is 70 or 90 wins. "WIN NOW!" should always be the Twins goal.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Pino is another reminder that talent should not be evaluated by the age of the player. The Twins should always be in "WIN NOW!" mode. A major league team owes it to the fans to "WIN NOW!" Why should the fans care if there are better long term prospects(Meyer and May) in AAA ? If Pino can give us results now, then we should be playing Pino.

The same argument can be made for Colabello. So what if Pino and Colabello are 30 years old? They could have several productive years at the major league level.

The Twins should always be trying to "WIN NOW!". It makes no difference if the win total is 70 or 90 wins. "WIN NOW!" should always be the Twins goal.

 

Oh boy, I disagree. If WIN NOW nets you 75 wins this year (instead of 70) but hinders your prospect develop to the tune of 3 wins next year and 5 more the following year, WIN NOW doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

It's a balancing act. I believe teams - unless they're in full fire sale mode - should always try to field a respectable roster. But if you're a 74 win team with a 32 year old pitcher who *might* be worth 1-2 more wins in the next two months but have a promising young pitcher who almost surely will be worth 5-6 *more* wins over the next 3-4 seasons, you go with the promising kid because the longterm investment is more important than WIN NOW.

[drivlikejehu]

The Twins can't "win now." So a "win now" strategy is quite worthless to them.

[Thegrin]

Brock, I respect your opinions, but in this instance I believe you have it wrong. A major league team should always bring up the players that would have the most positive impact on the "Major League" team TODAY. Pino had the most positive results in AAA. He earned the right to pitch in the majors.

Parmalee, Colabello & Santana were the best hitters in AAA Rochester this season when they were brought up to help the Twins.

There is no way to measure what a few MLB starts would do to advance Meyer or Mays future, You could look at Gibson last year. He was inconsistent in the same way as Meyer and May are this year. Gibson was terrible last year. For all practical purposes this is his rookie year. He is still inconsistent. Who knows if those few games of major league experience helped or hindered Gibson's learning process.

This year Pino has clearly been the most consistent starter in AAA. His results with the Twins have been overall positive. He has earned the right to another start. Let Meyer and May continue their FIRST season in AAA until the Twins need a starter and they are the best option. Right now they are the 3rd & 4th best option and "winning now" is more important than the possible development advantages to bringing up unprepared and unready prospects.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Gibson was terrible last year. For all practical purposes this is his rookie year. He is still inconsistent. Who knows if those few games of major league experience helped or hindered Gibson's learning process.

 

I don't see how last year's time in Minnesota did anything but help Gibson. It's easy to fall into a comfort zone and stop learning if you're dominating inferior talent. Challenging someone is the easiest way to spur the learning process and MiLB baseball has a talent ceiling well below MLB, where the hitters are smarter, faster, and trickier.

 

With that said, I'm not screaming that Meyer isn't up yet. It's fine that Pino got his shot... But at the end of the day, it should be "a shot" and nothing more. Pino has been adequate but Meyer and May are bigger talents. Pino shouldn't be blocking the progress of either of those two players in August because they're the ones who will be on the Twins roster for the next 6-7 years, pitching every fifth day. Whether Pino is better in 2014 should have little or no bearing on that decision because the 2014 Twins are not going to the playoffs.

[DaveW]

I don't know -- even with the options, that's a 40-man roster spot for a 30+ year old AAA/depth guy. Looking at the list of prospects that need to be protected from Rule 5 this offseason, I'm not sure Pino should make that cut unless he can offer more than that. He has been purchased or released by various organizations each of the last 4 seasons.

 

Im not sure why we are suddenly calling him a AAA/depth guy. He is starting games and getting good results thus far!

 

His results thus far in the majors show him as a solid back of the rotation guy for the time being (wheels fall off etc) he was amazing in the minors this year and if things catch up to him a bit or when he is surpassed there is a pretty decent shot he can stick in the pen for a bit.

 

Do I think he will be around long term as a starter? No. But I could see him getting another 5 or so starts this year, and a year or two in the pen as a cheap option.

[DaveW]

Whether Pino is better in 2014 should have little or no bearing on that decision because the 2014 Twins are not going to the playoffs.

 

They aren't out of the playoff hunt yet. They are only something like 6 games back in the wild card hunt, if they catch fire for a week or so they are suddenly right in the thick of it again. Hell a sweep (which isn't that ridiculous) against a bad Rockies team gets them to 4 games under .500

 

Now, as a fan do I think they will make the playoffs? Probably not, but I want to see them continue to compete until they are legitimately out of it. (10+ games out of WC in July, 8+ games in August, 6+ games Sept)

 

Pino has earned most starts, especially considering one of the other 5 rotation spots is currently up for grabs anyways (Nolasco's) and Correias is going to open up sooner than later with a trade.

 

By July 31st the rotation could be:

Hughes

Gibson

Meyer

May

Pino

 

Keep him in until he doesn't deserve it anymore!

[Thegrin]

I don't see how last year's time in Minnesota did anything but help Gibson. It's easy to fall into a comfort zone and stop learning if you're dominating inferior talent. Challenging someone is the easiest way to spur the learning process and MiLB baseball has a talent ceiling well below MLB, where the hitters are smarter, faster, and trickier..

 

You make my case for me. Meyer has NOT been dominating the inferior talent. Pino has. Meyer has been hurt. Pino is the here and now and is not in any way blocking Meyer and May. Meyer and May have not pitched a full season of AAA and they have far to go before they dominate.

[jokin]

You make my case for me. Meyer has NOT been dominating the inferior talent. Pino has. Meyer has been hurt. Pino is the here and now and is not in any way blocking Meyer and May. Meyer and May have not pitched a full season of AAA and they have far to go before they dominate.

 

The scary peripheral numbers indicate that Pino actually didn't dominate inferior talent in Rochester, as much as pitch with just about the most luck a pitcher could have. Pino has spent 8 years in AA and AAA, he's the very definition of minor league journeyman.... it doesn't make much sense for him to be throwing any meaningful innings at the expense of long-term prospects who can benefit both themselves and the club by making those starts. Meyer and May have, in fact, been dominating for much of their time at AAA, with some fully expectant minor ups and downs that 24 year olds on their first trip to AAA would have along the way- the numbers have been posted here previously, it's time for both of them to cut their teeth in the majors, as Gibson did last year to prepare them for a chance at being in the rotation in 2015.

[Thrylos]

I disagree that they had no bearing on the Twins' future, as Albers is gone and Walters is now at the bottom of the depth chart.

 

I suspect you mean Diamond and not Walters Walters is currently with Toronto's AAA team via KC's AAA team and Toronto's AA team.

[mnsports255]

After the break, if Pino keeps proving he's adequate at the major league level, the twins will keep him up with the team in some capacity this season. Now, should we compromise the futures of May/Meyers because of him? No. But I think as long as Pino gets decent results, he could be here to stay this season.

 

1) Meyer and/or May could both see promotions this year with Pino still in in the starting rotation due to a Correia trade and the uncertainty surrounding Nolasco.

2) With a bullpen guy or 2 possibly dealt at the deadline (i.e. Duensing, Swarzak, Burton, Thielbar, Guerrier), Pino could easily slide into a bullpen/long reliever/spot starter role.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Im not sure why we are suddenly calling him a AAA/depth guy. He is starting games and getting good results thus far!

 

His results thus far in the majors show him as a solid back of the rotation guy for the time being (wheels fall off etc) he was amazing in the minors this year and if things catch up to him a bit or when he is surpassed there is a pretty decent shot he can stick in the pen for a bit.

 

Do I think he will be around long term as a starter? No. But I could see him getting another 5 or so starts this year, and a year or two in the pen as a cheap option.

 

He's also cheap and cost controlled... while he's older, I could see him being the type of guy being flipped to a team in need of pitching this or next offseason. Won't bring a huge return, but he's got value right now... that only goes up if he gets more starts and continues to give similar results.

[diehardtwinsfan]

The scary peripheral numbers indicate that Pino actually didn't dominate inferior talent in Rochester, as much as pitch with just about the most luck a pitcher could have. Pino has spent 8 years in AA and AAA, he's the very definition of minor league journeyman.... it doesn't make much sense for him to be throwing any meaningful innings at the expense of long-term prospects who can benefit both themselves and the club by making those starts. Meyer and May have, in fact, been dominating for much of their time at AAA, with some fully expectant minor ups and downs that 24 year olds on their first trip to AAA would have along the way- the numbers have been posted here previously, it's time for both of them to cut their teeth in the majors, as Gibson did last year to prepare them for a chance at being in the rotation in 2015.

 

I suspect we need to have a good thread on 'luck' as how it regards to players. I agree that there's some luck involved... that's true anywhere, but I also think that attributing distribution to simply luck isn't good either. That said, I don't think he's really been harming anyone. At the time of his callup, Meyer wasn't looking ready. May had just had a 120 pitch outing the day before, Darnell has been scuffling a bit as well, and Pino had been consistently delivering results. There is some context here. I expect May to be up shortly, as I think this Johnson thing is more to do with May being on the DL. As for Meyer, he's been on a pitch count, and putting a guy on an 80 pitch limit in the rotation is a good way to destroy the pen... Not to mention he's not even on the 40 man, so if he gets sent back down, that's an option wasted. I'm guessing that when Meyers gets up this year (if he does) it will be to stay, which means that Nolasco is hitting the 60 day or it's a September callup.

[oldguy10]

diehardtwinsfan - regarding Pino, cheap and cost controlled is what mainly concerns franchise ownership, isn't it, that is simply how the Pohlads operate. I doubt that will ever change, remember this is a franchise that ownership would have folded when it was suggested in some circles years ago for contraction of MLB not expansion. Would Calvin have entertained that notion? I doubt it.

[Otto von Ballpark]

He's also cheap and cost controlled... while he's older, I could see him being the type of guy being flipped to a team in need of pitching this or next offseason. Won't bring a huge return, but he's got value right now... that only goes up if he gets more starts and continues to give similar results.

 

Pino has been sold or a minor league free agent each of the last 4 seasons. He is going to be 31 this winter. At best, if he keeps this up, maybe we can sell him to Korea, although even that seems way premature -- he's had an acceptable 5 start stretch when someone else lost their rotation job. Walters did that, Albers did it, Diamond did it better for a full season... all younger too, and none of them were worth anything to the Twins in the end (except the Korea sell, I guess).

 

Odds are better he becomes a cheap bullpen piece, and I would like to see him in that role now (or as soon as May is healthy).

[diehardtwinsfan]

diehardtwinsfan - regarding Pino, cheap and cost controlled is what mainly concerns franchise ownership, isn't it, that is simply how the Pohlads operate. I doubt that will ever change, remember this is a franchise that ownership would have folded when it was suggested in some circles years ago for contraction of MLB not expansion. Would Calvin have entertained that notion? I doubt it.

 

Cheap and cost controlled is an issue that affects all of MLB. It has value, and I don't know if it's fair to stereotype the Pohlads on that particular issue. I'd argue that it's nearly impossible to go out and buy a winner. We had 5 major FA acquisitions this year (though Pelfrey was technically a re-sign). Suzuki and Hughes were hits. Nolasco is looking like a miss so far (and could be a costly one in the 'bad contract' realm). Pelfrey was a miss, and the book is still out on Morales. I'd also note that pitching is always a scares commodity, so a guy who can potentially be a 4/5 guy for a reasonable price has a lot of value to a lot of teams. Given what the Twins have coming through the pipeline, I don't see Pino having much of a future here, but showing that he can get major leaguers out, to me at least, means that someone will give something up of value for him. That is part of the business of baseball, and for the long term health of the franchise, it's a good thing.

 

Side note, while I found it despicable (and still do), I think contraction was more a bluff to get Target field.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Pino has been sold or a minor league free agent each of the last 4 seasons. He is going to be 31 this winter. At best, if he keeps this up, maybe we can sell him to Korea, although even that seems way premature -- he's had an acceptable 5 start stretch when someone else lost their rotation job. Walters did that, Albers did it, Diamond did it better for a full season... all younger too, and none of them were worth anything to the Twins in the end (except the Korea sell, I guess).

 

Odds are better he becomes a cheap bullpen piece, and I would like to see him in that role now (or as soon as May is healthy).

 

I'm not disagreeing with you here. That might be the best role for him as well. The question at hand is whether or not that 5 start stretch is sustainable... and that's on the coaches/scouts to determine.

[drivlikejehu]

I suspect we need to have a good thread on 'luck' as how it regards to players.

 

I suspect that might not be a very successful thread, because that issue has been discussed and caused problems recently. There is a lot of quality research out there that many posters do not accept.

 

What typically is meant by "luck" in the baseball context is a sequencing of events that is not repeatable by skill. Clutch hitting, leaving tons of guys on base, etc. The good result happens because of timing, but players do not have the ability to control timing. They benefit or suffer due to random variation that occurs anytime variability exists.

 

Pino is a perfect example. Going from AAA to MLB, his BABIP has gone up 100 points, while his walk rate is identical to the hundredth. The former was luck, the latter was skill. That's why one continued and one did not.

 

Side note, while I found it despicable (and still do), I think contraction was more a bluff to get Target field.

 

It was not a bluff in any way, shape, or form. I spoke with a top MLB official several years later at a legal event, and was convinced that Pohlad was completely serious.