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Do the Twins Have an Ace? How do their starters stack up?


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What is an “Ace”?

There is no accepted definition for a pitcher earning the moniker “ace” which leads to all kind of friendly to less friendly debates when the declaration pitcher A is or is not an “ace.”

For me, an ace pitcher needs to have a few things on their resume.
1. An ERA of 3.39 or lower or a combination of history and FIP/SIERA/xFIP which suggests their ERA should be in that category
2. Long streaks of starts with 5.0+ (usually 6.0+) innings and ERA’s under 4.00 in those starts. We’re talking a bare minimum of 4, but often 5 or 6+ games in a row.
3. A pattern of starts which suggests the long streaks are earned by seeing consistent starts with FIPs below 4.00.

The basic gist is a pitcher where you don’t hope they pitch well, you just expect it’s a near automatic win when they start for you. A pitcher you have confidence to deliver a great start against whatever team or opposing pitcher they start against.

Item’s #2 and #3 separate “aces” from pitchers who’ve been lucky over a few starts or are up and down where you don’t really know what to expect from them on the mound. Jose Berrios was never an ace in my book. At his peak, he was a back end #2 or high end #3, but his bonus was just how much of a work horse he really was. He’d generally go 3 starts between hiccups like a typical mid rotation guy. Again, it’s the difference between expectation and hope.

Taking a look at the top 5 fWAR starting pitchers with 70+ innings (gets us to 128 total) this season and compare them to the Twins’ starters, you can see clear distinctions between what I consider to be an “ace” level pitcher, and our rotation. Ober has been the best starter for the Twins this year, but it’s clear he’s in a different class than the “aces.” I’ve also added trade interest kind of guys. Fedde, Flaherty, Kikuchi, Eflin, Eovaldi, Sears, Rogers, Lorenzen and Berrios' 2021 to the mix for comparisons. Berrios was that borderline #2 guy. He mostly pitched well enough to deserve a #2 monkier, but the results weren't quite up to how consistent he needed to be on the mound.

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QS2 is my definition of a qualified start. 5.0+ innings pitched, ERA of 3.99 or lower. If a pitcher leaves the game with an ERA under 4.00, there's a good chance their team only needs to score 4 runs to win the game, and that should happen well over 50% of the time. If they leave the game with an ERA of 4.00 or higher, there's a good chance their team will need to score 5 runs or more to win the game, and that has a dramatic impact on likelihood of a win. Every run allowed by a team between 0 and 5 causes a major shift in likelihood of winning, and that's just a fact. Allowing more than 5, well, the odds shift less and less because you're already hosed if you have to ask your offense to put up more than 6.
FIP2 is the same, but an FIP of 3.99 or lower
Max Streak is the number of starts in a row where the pitcher manages a QS2
Streaks 4+ is how many of those 4 game streaks the pitcher has put together this year

Some guidelines you'll probably start recognizing if you look at pitchers in this way
70%+ on the QS2/FIP2 with 5+ game streaks is about the land of the ace.
60-70% is the land of the #2 with 4 game streaks
50-60% is the land of the #3 with 3 game streaks
--------------------------------------------------------------------
below the line are not really playoff caliber starters. They're guys who might get a start, but not guys you want starting a pivotable game.
40-50% is the land of the #4 with less than 3 game streaks
39% and lower is the land of the #5 with less than 3 game streaks

Bailey Ober has been the best pitcher on the Twins this year, but he's a clear gap away from the land of ace pitchers. He's probably in the #2 starter category right now, really pitching well. Lopez is next in line, but he honestly falls into the #3 bracket so far this year as he hasn't been consistent enough yet. Hopefully, he's better in the second half. The Twins really need him to step it up. Joe Ryan has consistently performed under his FIP, and he hasn't been reliable when it comes to putting up my definition of a quality start. He's pretty similar to 2021 Jose Berrios, though a bit less reliable. Borderline in the #3 category, I'd say. SWR is a bit of an oddball. Totally unreliable with good start, bad start, good start, bad start. No idea what you're getting with him, right on the border of #3-4 for me. Paddack falls into the #5 rotation arm category. The 35% FIP2% is just too bold to ignore. All in all, I'd say the Twins have a mismatch at the top of the rotation against other playoff teams, but we're deep with quality starters after that. Lopez and Ober are the key to the Twins playoff rotation. If Ober can keep it up and Lopez can pick it up, we may roll into the playoffs with 2 #2 guys, and a solid #3. Not quite where you'd like to be, but competitive.  If Lopez sticks where he's at, the Twins will likely be at a clear disadvantage in the first 2 starts for the series, and potentially the 3rd.

If the Twins' bats can bail them out in game 1 of a playoff series, I like the Twins' chances against almost any other team. If the opponent's ace skunks us out of the gate like Wheeler or Skubal did recently, we're going to have a real tough row to hoe coming back IMHO.

20 Comments


Recommended Comments

KBJ1

Posted

Totally agree. This staff is not good enough to win it all. Stewart being out is just killing us. No #5 starter will be our downfall.

Karbo

Posted

I have an "old school" approach to defining an ace. 3/4 of their starts are QS, an ERA under 3.50, BAA under .225, on base + slugging under .650.

DFlow

Posted

With a healthy Stewart I believe this team should be looking at postseason openers for most games. I think if Pablo shows more of what he’s done the past month we can say he’s back but overall the long ball is scary. I’d also feel better if Ryan/Ober were pitching Games 3&4 as they would matchup well there in a series. 
 

It’s a little unorthodox to have openers in the playoffs but we would have a deep enough bullpen with a healthy Stewart to justify a high leverage guy starting the game against your Gunnar Henderson, Aaron Judges, and Juan Soto’s of the world and allow starters to go deeper into games by only hitting the core guys twice. 
 

My opinion on having the offense bail you out just doesn’t really work in October. I can point to 15 years of Twins teams as examples with elite offenses that can’t overcome our mediocre starters. The Twins are going to have to get strategic to a whole new level if they are going to make a run.

bean5302

Posted

1 hour ago, DFlow said:

With a healthy Stewart I believe this team should be looking at postseason openers for most games. I think if Pablo shows more of what he’s done the past month we can say he’s back but overall the long ball is scary. I’d also feel better if Ryan/Ober were pitching Games 3&4 as they would matchup well there in a series. 
 

It’s a little unorthodox to have openers in the playoffs but we would have a deep enough bullpen with a healthy Stewart to justify a high leverage guy starting the game against your Gunnar Henderson, Aaron Judges, and Juan Soto’s of the world and allow starters to go deeper into games by only hitting the core guys twice. 
 

My opinion on having the offense bail you out just doesn’t really work in October. I can point to 15 years of Twins teams as examples with elite offenses that can’t overcome our mediocre starters. The Twins are going to have to get strategic to a whole new level if they are going to make a run.

Stewart's on the IL again, this time with a "right shoulder strain" instead of "right shoulder tendonitis." It makes sense as his velocity was down 2mph. I just don't have any faith he's going to be back this year given how long his bout of tendonitis took him to shake out, and how many setbacks he had.

Even if he was healthy, and you could make the argument the Twins' bullpen is deep, I'm not sure openers are justified, to be honest. Starting pitchers as a whole are much better FTO, and mostly, openers were used to help middling quality starters, not your best guys. In 2024, the starter median FIP is 3.63 first time through the order for 148 starting pitchers with 20+ innings pitched FTO.
Top 30 - 1.76-2.95
31-60 - 2.99-3.38
61-90 - 3.40-3.90
91-120 - 3.92-4.52
121-148 - 4.54-7.89

Agreed that offense is not reliable in the post season. They're going up against elite starters as laid out above. A 25% chance of an ace leaving the game with less than 5 innings or an ERA above 3.99, and that excludes all the old school 6.0-6.2 inning 3 earned run starts (6.0 inn = 4.50 ERA, 6.1 inn = 4.27 ERA, 6.2 inn = 4.05 ERA). Aces almost never have a true clunker.

JD-TWINS

Posted

On 8/2/2024 at 11:19 AM, DFlow said:

With a healthy Stewart I believe this team should be looking at postseason openers for most games. I think if Pablo shows more of what he’s done the past month we can say he’s back but overall the long ball is scary. I’d also feel better if Ryan/Ober were pitching Games 3&4 as they would matchup well there in a series. 
 

It’s a little unorthodox to have openers in the playoffs but we would have a deep enough bullpen with a healthy Stewart to justify a high leverage guy starting the game against your Gunnar Henderson, Aaron Judges, and Juan Soto’s of the world and allow starters to go deeper into games by only hitting the core guys twice. 
 

My opinion on having the offense bail you out just doesn’t really work in October. I can point to 15 years of Twins teams as examples with elite offenses that can’t overcome our mediocre starters. The Twins are going to have to get strategic to a whole new level if they are going to make a run.

Reliance on Stewart seems heavy and off balance somewhat ……..the guy throws 1 inning Max maybe 2 of 3 games played……that’s his normal workload when healthy. I agree he could be a nice piece, key piece of the Pen, but he isn’t driving the success of our staff.

Topa could be a nice wildcard - hopefully we’ll see him in next 2-3 weeks!

Paddack & Varland to the Pen, along with Stewart - Sands - Alcala - Jax - Duran could be the formula to finishing an Opener by SWR!! 

Don’t see the Staff as mediocre in any sense - don’t see a dominant top end guy yet but that’s not needed in a 5 or 7 game Series.

Fatbat

Posted

We are in a great position because#1 Ober is becoming an Ace.  We are literally watching him develop into one at the right time.  #2 Lopez is getting hot at the right time and has the previous experience of handling the Ace pressure.  #3 Ryan is tagging along and may have Paddock/Festa/SWR/Varland in the pen to tag team a shut down game with in October! 
This late season comeback/ playoff run is going to be exciting!!!

dxpavelka

Posted

2 hours ago, Fatbat said:

We are in a great position because#1 Ober is becoming an Ace.  We are literally watching him develop into one at the right time.  #2 Lopez is getting hot at the right time and has the previous experience of handling the Ace pressure.  #3 Ryan is tagging along and may have Paddock/Festa/SWR/Varland in the pen to tag team a shut down game with in October! 
This late season comeback/ playoff run is going to be exciting!!!

fugetaboutit.  haven't you heard? It's over.  We're dead in t he water.  No significant deadline deal means we're dead.  Get the golf clubs out.

Joe Schmitt

Posted

So . . . the problem I have with this - actually with all of this - is that none of is calibrated to what is happening with the rest of the league.  Sometimes ERAs are higher than other times.  Using this formula there were many. many aces in the '60s.  The same formula would have produced very few aces during the high run eras.

Another way to put it is:  how many "aces" do you think there are in MLB right now?  Are you suggesting there are five of them?

Others are suggesting that because the Twins don't have an ace we are doomed.  So 2/3 of the teams in the playoffs are doomed?

Somehow we need to calibrate this to actual performance so we can evaluate the teams against one another.

Fatbat

Posted

20 hours ago, dxpavelka said:

fugetaboutit.  haven't you heard? It's over.  We're dead in t he water.  No significant deadline deal means we're dead.  Get the golf clubs out.

We could end up with 3 pitchers in MLB that have top 12 stats for the whole season.  They are pitching great now and if they keep it up thru October.  Who is going to want to bat against us? 
 

our 🐂 pen does not suck either! 

DJL44

Posted

I guarantee they won't see Crochet or Skubal in the playoffs. We should all be thrilled if they have to match up with Chris Sale.

dxpavelka

Posted

1 hour ago, Fatbat said:

We could end up with 3 pitchers in MLB that have top 12 stats for the whole season.  They are pitching great now and if they keep it up thru October.  Who is going to want to bat against us? 
 

our 🐂 pen does not suck either! 

There are a number of clubs with two better than us but I'll agree nobody with three better than our top three.  I don't see three  in the top 12 though.    And you gotta go down about 70 spots before you get to Woods-Richardson.  Comes down to do you have confidence in him at the four spot and can the top three be flawless when it really matters. 

August J Gloop

Posted

The Twins have a top 5 pitching staff by most measures. Their ceiling isn't ace high, but their floor on an elevated platform. You can expect a little regression with the strand rate, but since they're not walking anyone it shouldn't really spike the ERA too much. Some of the models even sense they've been unlucky, or underperformed their expected results. 

Brandon

Posted

We have 4 starters who are at least a number 3 level starter and a wild card in Festa.  I think with a dominant bullpen we can over come the lack of ace status pitchers.  We also have a good deep offense.  If healthy they can cover for runs given up too.  The playoffs are a sprint and we have a team that is pretty well built to succeed there.  The team just needs to decide to win no matter what.

mikelink45

Posted

Not my definition of an Ace.  I look at who comes in and rises to the occasion - the pitcher like Morris who will demand the ball and fight through every situation.  All the rest of the statistical stuff is fun, but does not do it for me.  

Who will the team (not just the manager) look to for the big outs and the ability to carry the team. 

dxpavelka

Posted

13 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

Not my definition of an Ace.  I look at who comes in and rises to the occasion - the pitcher like Morris who will demand the ball and fight through every situation.  All the rest of the statistical stuff is fun, but does not do it for me.  

Who will the team (not just the manager) look to for the big outs and the ability to carry the team. 

By your definition, such an animal no longer exists.

dxpavelka

Posted

On 8/4/2024 at 8:36 PM, Joe Schmitt said:

So . . . the problem I have with this - actually with all of this - is that none of is calibrated to what is happening with the rest of the league.  Sometimes ERAs are higher than other times.  Using this formula there were many. many aces in the '60s.  The same formula would have produced very few aces during the high run eras.

Another way to put it is:  how many "aces" do you think there are in MLB right now?  Are you suggesting there are five of them?

Others are suggesting that because the Twins don't have an ace we are doomed.  So 2/3 of the teams in the playoffs are doomed?

Somehow we need to calibrate this to actual performance so we can evaluate the teams against one another.

Actually all but one team in the playoffs is doomed.  We just don't know which one that is.  Which is why they play the games.

tony&rodney

Posted

The plethora of statistics make for interesting ways in which to judge players today. Anyone can create whatever system they find personally interesting and have fun with it. Wins are not seen as a very complete statistic today and ERA is also somewhat diminished. While many will find these exercises fun, it is doubtful that they are any better than the simple knowledge of who is pitching well and can be counted on. 

There were countless disparaging articles about Jack Morris and his accomplishments related to his HOF selection. Yet it is a sure thing that Sparky and every other manager in baseball considered Morris an ace. Tom Kelly would have a word or two to say as well.

Unless an injury or something unforeseen is involved, we should expect Pablo Lopez to start Game 1 of a playoff series. He is our ace. 

bean5302

Posted

On 8/4/2024 at 8:36 PM, Joe Schmitt said:

So . . . the problem I have with this - actually with all of this - is that none of is calibrated to what is happening with the rest of the league.  Sometimes ERAs are higher than other times.  Using this formula there were many. many aces in the '60s.  The same formula would have produced very few aces during the high run eras.

Another way to put it is:  how many "aces" do you think there are in MLB right now?  Are you suggesting there are five of them?

Others are suggesting that because the Twins don't have an ace we are doomed.  So 2/3 of the teams in the playoffs are doomed?

Somehow we need to calibrate this to actual performance so we can evaluate the teams against one another.

I feel like this is one of those... 'I don't like what you have to say, so I'm going to continue to request more and more and more data, and every piece of data you present will be tossed by me because I don't like it.'

Pitchers with 100+ innings and an ERA 3.30 or lower over the past 10 years, you'll find right around 30, which is about how many "aces" you'd expect to see in MLB at any given time. Sometimes there's a cluster of pitchers in that 3.31-3.39 range, like 2015 has 7 of those guys.
2021 = 31
2022 = 44
2023 = 20
2024 = 24
2020 = N/A
2019 = 16
2018 = 28
2017 = 19
2016 = 26
2015 = 26

The rest would take a huge amount of my time, but I didn't come to my position from the analysis of this article, I came to my position from previous analysis and just used the random data points I compiled from this article to support it. That said, just how many bad performances do you think a pitcher with a sub-3.31 ERA could really have? To get to that kind of ERA, you almost have to come up with consistent great starts.
 

Fatbat

Posted

On 8/6/2024 at 5:05 PM, mikelink45 said:

Not my definition of an Ace.  I look at who comes in and rises to the occasion - the pitcher like Morris who will demand the ball and fight through every situation.  All the rest of the statistical stuff is fun, but does not do it for me.  

Who will the team (not just the manager) look to for the big outs and the ability to carry the team. 

Thats an HOF on a mission ACE. Scherzer and a handful of guys over a decade get to that type of supermanism. 

Joe Schmitt

Posted

I'm impressed with the work, bean, thanks.  That is more stability than I expected in those figures.  I still think that it won't work across eras, but maybe there is enough stability to use this metric for this era.

The other issue, which several people highlighted, is people who are hot for a period of time, and appear on the list, but are not aces, or people who are cold for a period of time, but are still aces. Dating myself, Anderson had a great freaking year and put himself on this list once upon a time, but Viola was the ace. Anderson was never an ace even if he won the ERA title that year. I think Carlos Silva probably made the list once upon a time as well.

That having been said, this is still useful. I just would take it with a grain of salt.

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