Twodogs

Just like you said though, it's a counting stat, so where would Jose's counting numbers be if he got to face a pitcher in the lineup 3 or 4 times every single game? So of course when you compare to the National league stats are going to be skewed. Also how big of a gamble was it to sign Josh Donaldson to 95 million after he was already 34 years old. Berrios whole contract only gets him to his 34th birthday. Don't get me wrong, I like Josh Donaldson, and when the Twins signed him, I didn't see too many people complaining about it at all, but if it's ok to sign Donaldson why is it not ok to sign Berrios? This whole thing really shows that the Twins really could care less about their players, and now I think we can kind of see why they have a real tough time signing players of any significance. We now know more the reasons why they don't want to come to Minnesota, it's probably not because of the weather as much as it is about really not wanting to play here if they can help it.

I'm starting to think that, and I know as regular people we all sit around and wish we could all be baseball players, that they have "the life" for young dudes in their 20's and 30's. But I'm starting to maybe think that the work environment in Minnesota just isn't good?? I mean if these home grown guys want out and they sign right away with other teams what does that say?? I mean we were all led to believe that Berrios was hell bent on going through free agency. That might have only been the case had he stayed in Minnesota?? Maybe Toronto has a better work environment and he decided to sign for a reasonable amount? I mean we all saw what they did to Buxton with the service time crap, im sure everyone else has seen this stuff too.

I think they'd be better off going all in on a rebuild as far as the pitching staff goes. I mean use Ryan and Ober. Bring up SWR or Balazovic and pitch them. The more I see the Twins baby these guys for years and years next thing you know is that they can't do it. I mean bring them up when they are young 22 - 23 and if they get blown up then send them down and give them another year or so to figure it out. But the twins keep them down there till they are 25 or 26 and if they don't do well they are phased out because they are now too old. Don't get me wrong, it was a different thing when they were coming off of a division championship and you had Berrios, Pineda, Odrorrzzi, Maeda and a staff of veterans anchoring your rotation. But now it's got to be a different strategy, and throwing everyone for 3 innings is an experiment that in the long run won't develop anyone for the future. You'd be doing that for the here and now and then punt and start over the next season. Bringing up the young guys to see if they can pitch will show development for the future. If it works in the here and now great!!! If it doesn't then maybe you find 2 or 3 guys in your system that can handle it. If you don't then you know that you have to go to the next wave of youngsters until you find some guys who can pitch. Try some of the young guys and see what they can do. Then at least those guys will have a baseline and know what they have to work on to be able to have a successful career.

I'd say that's the definition of throwing crap at the wall and seeing what sticks. I mean yeah you can say we have a lot of prospects at the top of the organization, but nothing has planned out, I mean Bailey Ober looks like he could be ok, but I mean really he is already 26 years old. He's barely on the radar and he's almost past his prime. I mean it seems like the Twins idea of developing pitching is similar to composting. Just keep them all down on the farm and stir them up once in awhile to see what stinks. Don't get me wrong, I'm praying for the day another Jose Berrios shows up, I'm hoping for another Frank Viola, I'd take another Brad Radke or two. But the cynical side of me just keeps telling me to look around, what has come out of the system as far as starting pitching?? has anything really changed?? Now you're trying to tell me that picking up Garrett Richards off of the scrap heap and praying that he can throw 3 innings is developing pitching? Again, I'm just looking around and seeing what they keep doing. I'm in hope and pray mode, but again I usually hope and pray with my eyes closed.

But Falvey and Levine were supposed to be pitching Gurus, so isn't it a failure if by now they havent developed any pitching and are looking for creative ways to fill the stopgap of a pitching staff?

I doubt that Colome chose to leave as making money in professional baseball is no guarantee. So I'd bet if he was the only one who had the choice to leave or stay he would have stayed.

This was a good sarcastic story. I wonder however what the 2022 Twins would do with a starting pitcher after two years of going 11 - 25 with a 5.38 ERA in 56 games started. Figure out those stats. From a former Twin and imagine if Bailey Ober or Joe Ryan had those same exact stats over a two year period if anyone would still want them around?? Don't get me wrong, I think beyond WAR and computer numbers and I feel that Colome was just not a good fit with the Twins and their clubhouse. So in no way shape or form would I want Colome back. I would have been more along the lines of they should have tried to keep Trevor May. He was a clubhouse fit and has good stuff. But nonetheless. How many people get rid of that starter I brought up??

Honestly, didn't the Twins lose Badoo as a rule 5 last year. They got rid of Wade for nothing, etc.... I think the Twins farm system is probably a little too deep with close to MLB ready prospects right now. Probably wouldn't hurt the Twins at all to lose a pick or two for a guy or two that is MLB proven. Or trade some of those close to MLB ready kids for a couple of guys that can actually play in the MLB and keep the picks to restock what you traded away?

Well I remember reading a lot of stuff that said that Mauer was kind of an outside candidate for the HOF. But I've been reading a lot of stuff that says Posey is some sort of lock for the HOF. To me if Posey and his 1500 hits is a lock then I'd think Mauer and his over 2100 hits should also be a lock. If Mauer isn't a lock then no way should Posey be a lock in my opinion.

Yeah Worley was traded from the Phillies with Trevor May for Ben Revere.

I watched Pineda throwing 93 today vs the Royals? I think with the Twins dealing Berrios that they should probably go with what they got and see if they can rely on maybe 3 guys or so. Then go after a big ace type pitcher the following year so as to get that main guy in the rotation. But really next year they should see how their young guys can fair in MLB. I'm just speculating but let's say that Ryan, Ober and Balazovic can get major league outs over 6+ innings and then the following year you get Maeda back and you pick up an Ace, now you have a solid rotation. But if you pick up a couple of scrap heap starters and bring back Pineda then, at least to me, that limits how much MLB info you can get on the guys in your system which they have quite a few at this point in time that by age wise should be getting opportunities now if not sooner. It really seems like to me that the twins pitching prospects toil down in the minors a little too long. I mean they brought Berrios up when he was 22, and don't get me wrong, he stunk it up, but at 22 it gives a player enough time to go back down and work on the things that will make him better, I think those guys need to see what the MLB hitter are going to do to them and then they can adjust and come back up and be ready to get outs. But when you wait till these guys are 25, 26 or 27 before giving them a shot, (I mean you know they are going to go through major struggles at the highest level,) when they ultimately go through their failures they really don't have any more time to go down to the minors to right the ship, they are now pretty much too old to make those adjustments and come back. I think they need to give Balazovic a shot and those other young guys they have, that way they can send the ones struggling back down in June and July and let them work on their adjustments and bring them back up in September etc.... Just my opinion, but I really think the Twins need to see what they now have in the system. They have so many young guys down there now with all of the trades bring em up and see what they got and what they can tweak to get them ready for the following season. I don't think keeping them in the minors behind another shoemaker or Happ replacement does the team any good. Or if you don't want to go that route then trade those kids for some vets. But me personally I'd rather see what those kids can do. Don't sign a bunch of scrap heap guys which will hold the kids down. Play the kids and when you know who is going to step up then sign that ace to complete the rotation.

Hindsight is definitely 20/20, but as people have mentioned things like maybe Ray or Rodon don't do as well with the twins as they have done with their respective teams, so looking at things may have changed for the better or worse what if the Twins had just kept what they had in house?? Odorizzi and Hill who have both been decent this year, way way better than Shoemaker and Happ, but nowhere near Rodon etc.... But had they also just kept May and Romo over Colome and Robles? I mean when teams get on a roll you know guys will play better than what their peripherals say they should and vice versa. For instance Happ looked like his career was done and now in St Louis he looks ok again? But what if the clubhouse mostly stayed the same?? Odorizzi and Hill; Trevor May and Romo? Maybe even clippard also? How far off would that have put the payroll? I know for a fact that those guys play better than what the twins replaced them with. But how much?

I guess the way I am looking at it is.... This season is obviously over. So I'm glad that Albers got another start in his career and he did great. But every time the Twins start a guy like Albers I feel that they have just wasted an opportunity for a young guy who has a ton of potential the opportunity to start. I feel as though the Twins have guys like Balazovic in the minors why not give him a shot??? I mean they could just start him like 2 times and call it good, just so he can get his feet wet. Same with Ryan, Simeon woods, Duran, etc .... Bring those guys up for a couple of starts to see what they have, right now. Don't wait until next season when one of the dumpster dive guys is locking down a rotation spot. Start everyone that they think could help next season and go from there.

Wow! Maybe they can get some baseballs for Robles and Colome?

Yes!

So my thought process on this is why do negotiations need to stop at this point? I mean why would the Twins draw a line in the sand and say if we don't have a deal done by this date then we are done negotiating? I mean what value does that give the Twins? So why would an article come out like this that basically says everyone failed in their negotiations? (Unless the Twins gave up for good?). I mean why wouldn't the Twins and Buxton.....er his agent just keep the lines of communication open? Doesnt really make sense to me.

It seems to me that one of the issues is that the Twins have an approach that sometimes (whether analytical or not) devalues their own talent and often overvalues other people's talent. I think often times a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. You really don't know how a player from somewhere else is going to mesh with the team you currently have. I get it, everyone is going to say; they are professionals, they are getting paid a lot to play this game they the players need to adjust. But, they are human too. So when you have players that you already know and can trust to stick to the program that you have laid out then sometimes I think that is worth way more than trying to build a team based on fantasy value. Analytically a player may be worth this much, but in the wrong situation that value may go down. So I really feel that the Twins need to focus on what they have sometimes over what looks shiny and new out there. So I mean one instance I can think of is Rich Hill. They had him last year and let him fly, but then went and replaced him with Matt Shoemaker, I mean they are making close to the same amount of money? So why let a guy go that actually performed for you pretty well, I know he had a few injuries and dings last year, but you had him and replaced him with someone that is now terrible. Another instance, now this one is fairly speculative, but Brad Hand is a Minnesota boy, it seemed like from articles that were written that Hand was pretty interested in coming home, instead the Twins pick up Colome, I don't think their salaries are that far off, probably like 10 mill vs 6 mill. But from what I felt like I read is that Hand wanted to be here Colome just wanted to play baseball I don't think Colome really cares one way or the other about being in Minnesota. These types of things are not really measurable via analytics, but I dare to say that had the Twins had Hand closing games and Rich Hill as the 5th starter that they still might not be in 1st place, but they'd be doing much better than they are right now. Heck Jake Odorizzi made it clear he likes it in Minnesota, I'd venture to say that with him instead of JA Happ again the Twins would probably be in a better place and I don't think their salaries are that much different either. Probably both close to 10 million. So now when we start talking about Jose Berrios, yeah you can get rid of him via a trade or what not, but Jose has been here for a long time and understands the program, so whoever you pick up to replace him, may analytically look to be on par with Jose but may not feel any loyalty whatsoever towards the Twins organization and as a result may not pitch anywhere close numbers wise to what Jose would have done. So they can just pick and pluck new and different pieces year in and year out, and they could even end up spending more, but they may never regain the clubhouse culture that the homegrown kids developed together. So analytics does a great job predicting how a player may play, but it can't tell you how well they will mesh with the new club. Now to me, it seems a lot easier to add a new personality or two at the trade deadline, like they did with Shannon Stewart. Now when you put a guy onto a team that is already winning they can usually buy into that, and in the meantime develop a relationship with the new squad. Winning seems to do those kinds of things. So I feel that the Twins need to place more importance on trying to keep their own guys vs going out and getting replacements every year. Also, when a guy says he likes it in Minnesota, don't use that as some form of weakness to try and get them to sign cheap, pay that guy what he is worth because he actually wants to be here because you will not be able to replace that. I mean Lance Lynn, Tom Here are all examples of guys that didn't want to be here and how did they perform? Not very good, for the Twins. So again, sometimes you need to look at a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

I personally think the signings of Happ and Shoemaker were the nails that put the twins in the coffin this year. I think they need to see what these youngsters have, I mean they already know that they can compete in the minors, so bring them up and let them make a few starts this year and see what they bring to the table. Then in the off season they need to sign one real good pitcher to go with Berrios and Maeda, to make a quality top 3 and then let these guys like Balazovic, and Duran, and Dobnak, etc.... All compete for the 4th and 5th spots in the rotation. Obviously you'll need a 6th and probably 7th too along with a bullpen. But let's see what these kids can do now, I definitely agree.

Yeah, I know it's always a crap shoot, but it always seems to me that the sooner they can get a kid into the MLB camp the sooner they can develop him etc.... I mean it would seem that the international kids have a huge huge advantage over the American kids because the international kids can get selected when they are 16 years old. I'm pretty sure the Twins have better coaching than the local high school does?? I'm not knocking high school and college baseball, but to me it just doesn't seem fair that some kids(international) are able to get MLB coaching at age 16 and a lot of the American kids often have to wait until they are like 21 (Jr year of college) in order to get that same high calibre coaching instruction. So if they have a real good high school player they might as well go after him because then they have more time to work with him.

This is just my personal belief, but I think real good rotations and staffs have a combination of all types of pitchers. So the White Sox were brought up, but Dallas Kuechel definitely does not fit that velocity category but he fits into their rotation. So they have a guy like Giolito, then a Lefty like Rodon, and then you sandwich a soft tossing ground baller in-between them and I feel that with the different looks and different types of pitchers can confuse hitters a little. I mean they aren't going to be literally confused, it's just that one day you hear up for that velo guy and the next day you got some guy hitting the inside of your bat with junk and the hitters never quite get comfortable. So as far as the Twins go, Maeda is that soft tosser, and they realistically need a couple of hard throwers to go around him. So the Twins definitely need some help with the velo guys. But a team overall don't need to have all velo guys to be good. I feel they need a combination of all types of pitchers. On another note, I was listening to Dan O'Dowd on MLB channel. He mentioned when he was a GM they were always going after velo. But he said often times those velo guys just couldn't find the strike zone. So he said he had been talking with a lot of GM's and with pitching coaches nowadays they are able to take a guy and add quite a bit of velo with different mechanics and added strength, etc.... That a lot of the times guys who have real good command that don't necessarily throw super hard but show promise to gain velo are often coveted, because it's much harder to teach command, it's a lot t easier to teach velocity. So you can get a strike thrower who throws 90 and get him to 95 - 97. But it is really hard to get a guy who throws 100 but can't throw strikes, to learn how to throw strikes. It was just interesting to listen to him talk about that stuff. Again, the Twins don't seem to be teaching their pitchers to throw harder in the minors. So again the Twins are behind, but probably more so in development and not necessarily from not drafting velo guys. Again just my opinion.

I don't think any teams will give up much right now for Kepler, I mean they will want him, but they won't give up much more than some AAAA fliers. Same with Sano. Just because of the way they are producing right now. So in reality, I think Kepler and guys like Sano are worth more to the Twins than they are to other teams out there. They will be worth a lot more if they keep them and they have a potential turn around season and play like they are capable. Then they'd be trade worthy, but then no one here would want to trade them. Everyone wants to trade them because they aren't living up to their potential right now. That kind of makes it a bad time to trade them.

Seems to me that Tatis, Acuna Jr. Etc. Show boat of every bomb The hit?? So why pick on josh

Explain to me again how these new GM's are so much better than the old one? Happ, Shoemaker, horsecrap bullpen on a bunch of flyers Baldelli vs Molitor how are these guys so much smarter than the last one? Now talking about trading Buxton and Berrios? Looks like a lot of history repeating itself.

I think it may have to be Buxton that they part ways with this summer. I know that would be extremely painful, but let's be realistic, he's really the only guy that they'd get anything for, plus after what the Twins did to him a few years ago with service time and all I really doubt Buck would ever resign with the Twins ever anyway. So might as well get something big for him? I mean guys like Sano are pretty much worthless pieces right now. No one will part with bag of baseballs for him right now.

I always thought that as the hitters see a pitcher 2 and 3 times through the lineup that they were supposed to get better but it seems like the Twins score some runs at the beginning of games but can't score late ever?