chpettit19

Ryan Fitzgerald is a better option than Noah Miller. Noah put up a .664 OPS in AAA. He'd hit worse than Vazquez in the majors. Fitzgerald can field the position if that's all you care about. Noah Miller would be the worst hitter in the majors if you tried to call him up. By far, probably. Edited to add: Sorry, his OPS in AAA was actually .612. I looked at the wrong line.

561 PAs of extra confirmation that he was below average. They didn't foresee the swing and approach changes JD could/would make. He wasn't going to do that during 2013. That's not even up for debate because he played every day for them from April through September other than the month+ he was hurt. The extra PAs in 2012 when he was sent down wasn't going to change their minds. Your other argument was "I don't think he makes the same progress if he is on the bench twice a week" when it comes to Altuve going from an 89 OPS+ in 2013 to a 135 OPS+ in 2014. Well JD went from a 79 OPS+ in 2013 to a 154 OPS+ in 2014. How does that equal the extra playing time being key to development? Altuve got an extra season's worth of PAs and JD still out hit him by 82 points of OPS in 2014.

If we're just talking 3 hole it's a little difficult to predict because some of it will come down to the makeup of the rest of the lineup. Righty-Lefty alternating spots can effect who they put 2 vs 3, as an example. If Keaschall, Jenkins, and Lewis are their best hitters in 2027 or 2028 that may lead to a different 3-hole hitter than if it's Jenkins, Tait, and Gonzalez. I'm not so worried about the 3-hole specifically as I am being able to get 5 legitimate MLB top of the lineup hitters in place. It's been their struggle for a very long time. Kepler types having to hit in the top 5 of the order instead of the bottom 4 is why they've struggled. The order they end up in doesn't concern me nearly as much as having guys legitimately worthy of hitting at the top of an MLB lineup every day.

JD had an 88 OPS+ after 3 years. What's the difference between him and Altuve? I can't imagine that Altuve being 5 points higher was the determining factor. They had 2 guys performing below league average after 2.5 years. They were right on Altuve getting better and wrong on JD. JD was playing every day in 2012, like Altuve, but had a .681 OPS after August 9th and got demoted, then missed a month with an injury his 3rd year and was actually dropped before he hit arbitration. His first year with Detroit he was still on a league min deal as a pre-arb player because his first year in the majors was only half a year. They simply got JD wrong. He changed his swing and approach when he went to Detroit and blew up. But the Astros had another year of control on him before arbitration and simply had determined he wasn't going to cut it.

Oh, I didn't mean you were saying that I meant just posters in general. I don't have opinions on any of the hires or fires they make beyond generally not blaming them for the results on the field. The players they've been given are flawed players. The coaches couldn't make me into a major leaguer because I don't have the physical skills. Even major leaguers have a lack of skill in some area or another (other than Trout types). I don't know if Shelton will be good. I don't know if LaTroy will be good. None of us do. Any opinions on them are based on pure and utter conjecture with no real way of knowing. I fully accept that every team has coaches poached or be hired after they're fired. I'm not suggesting the Twins are special in that way. Simply that it flies in the face of reason for posters so suggest the Twins staff is incompetent when they're being constantly hired by other teams. The FO and players are to blame for the Twins struggles. And the Pohlads, but we don't need to go down that road again around here.

Sure, but the idea that the coaches are all incompetent fools who have been holding the Twins players back because they're not good at their jobs sure doesn't seem to be supported by the fact that many other teams want our coaches. If they were so obviously the reason the Twins struggled, why would other teams want them? Many posters around here have been blaming the hitting coaches, pitching coaches, minor league coaches, and any other coach they could think of for the struggles of Twins players. There's posts on this very thread about Tingler not being good and being no real loss. If these stances are true, why would other teams continue to take our coaches? Why would the Giants have hired Tingler for the same job he had here if he was incompetent? Isn't the more likely answer that the Twins coaches aren't incompetent and the expectation that they can turn players into more than their physical capabilities will allow is really the problem?

You are provably wrong on Miranda. Miranda's OPS in June of '24 was .939. His OPS in July was 1.111. He absolutely, positively, unquestionably did not start slumping in May. As jmlease said, he was having the best stretch of his career while you claim he was suffering from overuse by having to play 3B. He didn't struggle until he got hit in the head by a baseball. And he's never bounced back. Your theory on playing 3B ruining him isn't based on any actual evidence. In fact, the evidence is incredibly strong that it had no negative effect whatsoever on him as he was having the best stretch of his career while doing it. Keaschall was never 100% back from the TJS during the season, that's why he didn't play any OF. Miranda was 100% healed from his. They are 2 completely different situations. In fact, Keaschall not playing the OF is actually proof that you're wrong about the Twins not caring about people's injuries and rehabs when it comes to where they play. Kirilloff has a genetic disorder. Again, you're just making stuff up. It wasn't a sudden incident that ended his career because that's not how chronic genetic disorders work. Playing 1B wouldn't have saved him. He'd already had a bone in his wrist surgically shortened and has a genetic disorder that leads to chronic spinal fractures and slipped disks. Swinging was far more to blame than any position he played. The Twins know every player in their entire organization is playing through something by May. This idea that guys aren't playing through things constantly and you can/should only play guys when they are 100% is nonsense. It has no place in professional sports. No team in any sport runs that way because none of them would ever have a roster because all of their players are playing through something all the time. You can't just put them all at 1B and save their careers. That isn't reality. And your facts on Miranda and Kirilloff are sorely lacking.

If we're being realistic about the types of FAs they can bring in, then there's no position that should be replaced by a FA. If they were looking at the Tucker/Bichette/Alonzo levels of free agents then any position should be replaced by a FA. There's no prospect in our system that should get priority over Tucker in the OF or Bichette in the IF. None. And there never will be. Those are stars in their prime. If they could get those guys they should. But they can't/won't. There's no free agent in the 1-year, cheap deal category that should get priority over any prospect in our system. Those guys have no future here and next year is (in my opinion) about setting the team up for the future. So, they shouldn't bring in any of those guys. Even if it means losing 130 games. If you can get a FA that can help in 2027 and beyond, bring them in. If you can't, don't.

I'm not sure what fans would have had them do differently. You can't count on him in the majors next year, even if it is a rebuilding year. He was bad in AAA. Like really, really bad. He's out of options so he either makes your team out of spring or you DFA him then and have him pout in AAA for another season. He got 1100 PAs with the Twins. He's one of the young guys I actually wouldn't complain about when it comes to the opportunity they gave him to take a spot and run with it (outside of not calling him up at the end of a lost 2021). Injuries crushed him a couple times, and it may very well be the ball to the head that ruined last year, too. But I don't know how you can carry him all offseason when he has no options left. So, I don't know what fans would have them do differently at this point. He had 2 seasons of nice performance overall, but quite streaky during them. I wouldn't be shocked at all if he can provide a league average bat for another squad. But, as you said, his lack of defense doesn't make that a great player to have around. He "figured it out" here in the sense that he had 2 seasons of roughly 15% above average performance with the bat. If he's suddenly putting up Rooker style 60% above average numbers he needs to be tested for PEDs. But him putting up 120ish numbers like Rooker last year wouldn't be him figuring out anything he didn't figure out here because he was already pretty darn close to that twice. I just don't see anything with him to freak out about. Even a little. He got his shot every time he was healthy, is out of options, and was unplayable at AAA while pouting. Not sure what anyone would do differently if they're looking at things realistically as the FO making 40-man decisions right now. He had a 49 wRC+ in AAA last year. That's Vazquez level hitting in AAA instead of the majors. For a guy without options that's a death blow to your time with any team.

Alex Kirilloff had a chronic stress fracture and slipping vertebra. I will bet every dollar I have for the rest of my life that Jose Miranda didn't have that. For what it's worth, it was listed as a back sprain when he went on the IL. And, as someone who's had spine surgery because of similar chronic problems to Kirilloff, the idea that the Twins managed him into that problem is, as you state, flat-out ridiculous. 1B is not some miracle position that saves injuries. The stress on the lower body is not significantly different when playing 2B instead of SS (all the same actions are required). The Twins give their players far more rest days than the average MLB team. They sit players for all kinds of things that other teams wouldn't. They only play their catchers in a 50/50 split to avoid injuries and wearing down. The idea that the Twins have managed any player into an injury or reduction of performance is one of the most wild stances on this site. They're pro athletes. There's no such thing as being 100% after about the 3rd game of the season.

This is why I'd be surprised if he comes back on a minor league deal as some have suggested. I think he needs out of the Twins system for his own sake. He clearly has bat to ball skills so it's entirely possible he figures it out somewhere else (and fans freak out), but he was not happy in St Paul and the Twins don't need that kind of attitude there next year. I was also surprised they didn't release him earlier because of that.

Don't want to derail this thread about coaches into a talk about Clemens, but, FYI, Clemens is a lefty only and is completely and utterly useless against lefties.

The Dodgers traded Yordan Alvarez for Josh Fields. The Tigers dropped Willi Castro for nothing. Harrison Bader is a former waived player that had the best offensive season of his career with the Twins this year. Carlos Santana was picked up for nothing last year and had his best offensive season of the 2020s with the Twins. There's fans who are excited about Kody Clemens and think he's a legit MLBer (I'm not one of them) after the Twins claimed him from the Phillies this year. MAT had a career year here. You can play this game with every team. Especially with relievers. Every team has bullpen guys they rely on that were waiver claims and have waived guys that other teams pick up and turn into something. The Twins aren't alone here. You can find guys traded or waived by every team that succeed elsewhere. I put it very much in the "talent identification problem" bucket. The Ronny decision didn't make sense to me at the time and really looks bad now. My 2 biggest complaints about the Twins are that they are way too fixated on platooning and that they are not good at giving their young guys opportunities to show what they can do before they get to a point where they need to make roster decisions on them. Every team misses on guys. All of them. Rooker went to 2 other teams before he blew up with the As. Every team misses. A lot. The only way we can tell if the league thinks our coaches know what they're doing is if they steal them from us or hire them after we let them go. And the league is doing that. A lot. It's a front office problem. I never said the FO wasn't to blame, I said the coaches.

Tingler, Rowson, Hefner, Popkins, Alston, Swanson, Day. I'm sure there's quite a few more. Twins coaches poached or immediately hired by other teams after being let go by the Twins. I don't think the coaches are the problem. Or at least the rest of the league doesn't think so. Shoot, Rocco was interviewing for at least 1 other manager position immediately after being fired. The Twins lack talent. It's never been the coaches, it's been the players. Or so it seems pretty obvious the league is telling us by constantly poaching or immediately hiring the Twins coaches.

Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree. And this is why. They believed in Martin at SS, too. Winokur actually looks pretty good there to me, so I have no problem with them keeping him there until it's necessary to move (and that's when he's on the Twins with a better SS in place). You're limiting SS to mean just SS but listing OF as a group of 3 positions. Why can't Culpepper and Houston just be labeled as IFers? Or athletes? I bet Culpepper could play a corner OF spot. They could definitely all move to another IF spot without any problem. Culpepper has always been viewed as a better option at 3B. What if he's at SS and Houston works out? Houston is the better defender so is Culpepper just moved to the bench in 2 years or do they figure out how to play them both? Jenkins, Emma, GG, Mendez, Roden, Wallner, Buxton, Martin, Winokur if you prefer him there, maybe Keaschall if he can't figure out 2B better. How many outfielders do they need to have that they believe in before we don't need anymore OFers? I just listed 10. May be able to add Rosario and Fedko to the list, too. They appear to believe in those guys. Eeles may be best served in LF. I'll take the under on 3 of the non-Buxtons being difference makers. So, sure, I'd take a difference making OFer, too. But Arizona believed in Lawler and now he's a CFer. The Padres believed in Tatis Jr and now he's a RFer. They also believed in Jackson Merrill and now he's a CFer. The Red Sox believed in Rafaela and now he's a CFer. The Red Sox believed in Mookie back in the day and he became an all-world RFer before moving back to the IF with the Dodgers. They absolutely need catchers, but I'm not trading my best trade piece for a guy that won't play more than 60% of the time and is incredibly unlikely to be an impact offensive player. They're not likely to get the next Cal Raleigh with a trade for a catcher. They need an impact player back for Ryan. Preferably 2. If they get the #1 pick should they not take Roch because he's a SS? I just don't get the argument. Get good players. Get good athletes. The idea that they have too many players at any position will never make sense to me. When, in the history of baseball, has any team had too many good players that they just couldn't find places for them all? The Padres used to start 6 former SSs in the same lineup. The Twins have a long ways to go before they reach that level of SS talent. But reasonable minds have disagreed on more serious things than the Twins SS situation.

Hey, I'd take Corey Seager! But I'm all for acquiring talent. There's no such thing as a log jam. Especially at SS. The Padres ran out lineups that included 6 guys who came up as SSs through the minors (or foreign pro leagues). Profar in left, Merrill in center, Tatis Jr in right, with Machado, Kim, and Bogaerts across the infield. I wouldn't care if Jenkins, Emma, GG, Culpepper, Houston, and Tait were all shortstops. Give me another one. If they get the #1 pick, draft Roch. Just get athletic talent and figure it out from there.

I believe what he said is "a young SS to compete with Lee." Colt Emerson, JJ Wetherholt, Sebastian Walcott, Ceddanne Rafaela or Marcelo Mayer if we're going with the Ryan to the Red Sox idea, Aidan Miller, Carson Williams, Alex Freeland. All MLB ready prospects who would/could compete with Lee for SS to start next year. Would any of them be available for Ryan? I don't know. But why not ask? The same argument can be made for OFers. Just get more and figure it out. Would you pass on Carson Benge because they have Jenkins and Emma and GG? Or pitching. They have Bradley, Matthews, Festa, Abel, etc. so they should pass on Tong or Tolle or Sproat? The idea remains, don't pass on the top talent because you have hope other guys will be good. I won't speak for @Riverbrian but I'm quite positive he isn't talking about another Kyle Farmer. He's pretty strong on not doing 1-year deals for vets. But adding another young, MLB ready SS sounds smart to me.

There's no such thing as having too many players at any position, especially SS. We've been hearing how they have too many lefty corner outfielders for years; I don't see a single one. But they couldn't bring in someone else because they had Larnach and Wallner (I believe in the bat, just preferably at DH). They believed in Julien enough to trade Polanco. Miranda enough to try Lewis at 2B. Kirilloff enough to never get a long-term 1B. Lee has been used as an example of a reason the Twins didn't need to sign Correa or another reason to push Lewis off 3B. If they could bring in Bo Bichette (clearly an exaggerated example), you wouldn't do it because of Culpepper and Houston? The Twins need talent. Get talent. Up the middle talent preferably and then move them around. The Padres had a young MVP candidate at SS and have proceeded to move him to RF while bringing in 4 other shortstops and moving their next young phenom to CF (a position he'd never played) for his MLB debut. Culpepper and Houston both reaching their ceiling after having filled SS with another guy who is legitimately good would be a great problem to have. Get up the middle athletes who have real talent and figure it out from there. The Twins need Culpepper, GG, Jenkins, etc. to be good to have any shot in the next few years, but they shouldn't assume they will be. Especially not if they can get a true difference maker back for Ryan. Get the best baseball player you can for him and figure it out from there.

1. I don't believe they can get anything back for Larnach. Nick Gordon made 900k for the Marlins, Larnach is going to cost somebody somewhere around 5 million. The Twins tried the "tender and trade" bit with Farmer in a similar price range and couldn't deal him. Larnach has no excess value and I don't believe they can get anything back for him. 2. Ober is tough because of his down/injured year this year but is still a pitcher who has shown legit middle of the rotation ability. I think a young catcher is a nice target for him, and maybe Chicago would have interest, but it's really hard to know what he'll be worth on the trade market this year. 3. My guess is Wallner is more valuable as a bounce back candidate with the Twins than on the open market. As always, the Twins should be listening on him and everyone else in case somebody brings them a great deal, but I'd guess they get a bunch of calls on him from teams trying to buy low. If that's all you get he's better used here to see if he can get back to 23/24 performance. 4. Lee has never had the upside people tried to put on him. He can be better than this, but he's never going to be a legit starting SS in the majors. Never was. It's getting harder to see his ceiling as being anything above utility IFer at this point. The time to trade him was when he was still in AAA. Teams see the lack of athleticism, back struggles, and limited ceiling now. Lewis is much like Wallner in that his value is probably higher as a bounce back candidate. If the team was in better position to compete the calculus would be different, but with the shape of the team now there's plenty of ABs to give to a guy with his ceiling. If he doesn't bounce back he's probably non-tendered next year. But I don't think you can get a reasonable return for a guy who can be a star if he gets himself right. Trading guys with Wallner and Lewis' ceilings after down years is bad roster management. Always listen, but I doubt they get anything worthwhile on them. Ober is an interesting trade piece because when he was healthy he did show he's still the same guy, and pitching is always worth more. You'd still be trading low so he's probably a better option for a trade deadline deal. Any real difference making trade would have to include one of Lopez, Ryan, or Buxton, in my opinion. Jeffers being a step below them. They've put themselves in a really interesting and tough position. Will be an intereseting offseason to follow.

I'm sorry to have upset you so much, wasn't my intention. I do watch the Twins, including a good 75 minor league games a year on top of the major league games, but, no, I don't pay for Twins.tv or any other service that carries them. But the Pohlads don't care about my time, they care about my money. They don't care about my opinions, unless it effects my money and how much of it they get. As fans we have 1 way to "vote" on how the Twins are doing. Our money. Giving them my money when they're not meeting my expectations doesn't make sense to me. But you do what you want with yours. I'm not telling you not to. But I do get it, despite your opinions on my spending habits. The Pohlads own a business. They're in that business to make money. I'm not going to help them make money just because. It is not my job to invest in the Minnesota Twins, that's the Pohlads job. When they had a product I felt was worth my money they got a lot of my money. Thousands of dollars a year worth of my money. They no longer have a product I feel is worth my money so they're not getting any of it. It's not my job to pay them to exist. But you can feel more than welcome to. This conversation has run its course, though. So, I will be leaving it where it is. Agree to disagree is fine with me.

Suzuki gets a say in whether or not he'd sign an extension mid-season. The Angels don't just get to unilaterally force him into an extension. And if he's doing very well and looking like a manager of the year candidate he can wait until the offseason to see what other jobs are open. And if he likes those other options more he can leave. And then the Angels are stuck looking for another manager. It's what happened with Counsell and the Brewers/Cubs. I didn't say lack of respect = bad leadership, I said it makes it harder. And it does. There's some awfully large egos in professional locker rooms. And, yes, these things do play a role. You don't have to believe it, that's fine. If 1 year deals were so smart every team would use them. But they don't. There's is very rarely ever a lame duck manager in major league baseball. There's a reason for that.

I'm a former season ticket holder, actually. I've supported them plenty financially. I'd argue you're the bigger problem. Why should they be dedicated to winning when you'll pay them no matter what? I'm not pinching my pennies, I'm making a decision to spend my hard earned money elsewhere. When the Twins earn my money back I'll go back to spending on them. But they don't just blindly get my money. I'm happy for you that you continue to give them money no matter what. How's that worked out the last 30 years? Businesses produce good products and then customers give them money. Not the other way around.

Is it going to be considered smart if he does a great job and then goes to another team after the year and they have to go find a new manager? That's one of the many reasons why teams very rarely ever have a lame duck manager. Not to mention how much respect he can demand in the clubhouse as a first-time manager who the players aren't even sure will be around beyond that year because the org didn't trust their hire enough to give him more than 1 year.

I didn't twist anything. You tried to claim fans don't actually show up for "a season of fun baseball and playoff baseball" and tried to use 2023 as the example. You claimed context and facts matter and people shouldn't just regurgitate "the Poland’s are cheap and Levine is the worst." I think we all realized you meant Falvey. I didn't twist anything. I showed that it isn't just regurgitating those lines without context or facts to support those ideas. They didn't sell out game 1, but they did sell out game 2. The Twins had 2 decades worth of playoff futility built up and were a team that struggled to stay above .500 all year. Fans are not so easily swayed. They won game 1 and game 2 immediately sold out. Yes, disinterest started before 2023, and it should have. That's the context part of your "Context and facts should matter still" idea. The context is that they'd been bad for back to back years, struggled most of 2023, and had 20 years of nothing but playoff losses built up. You tried to use the attendance only going up by 100k that year as proof fans wouldn't show up anyway while claiming people are ignoring "context and facts" and just regurgitating hate for the owners and FO. I just showed what the actual "context and facts" are. You're more than welcome to do whatever you want with your money. I support the Twins by watching their games on my computer by using someone else's cable sign in because I don't believe it's my job to provide money to them just because. The Pohlads and DSP have ran this organization (on the business side) terribly for decades. They've alienated fans and not provided reasons for us to give them our money. 2019 is actually proof that fans will show up if the Twins have an actual "season of fun baseball and playoff baseball." I don't buy bad products in hopes the manufacturer will suddenly start making a better product once they get enough of my money. Maybe you do. Maybe you go to an electronics store, find a TV that doesn't meet the standards you'd actually like in a TV but still buy it because you've been cheering for that brand and hope they will start putting out a product that actually meets your standards at some point. The Twins are a business selling a product. A poorly run business that alienates its customers but still expects them to buy their product. And then, when they don't buy their inferior product they turn around and blame their customers for not just buying whatever product they put out. If you want to give them your money no matter what I won't tell you not to. But I'm not going to. And if the Pohlads haven't realized by now they need to actually run their business well to get customers to pay for their product they deserve their struggles.

Facts should matter, like the Twins being 5 games over .500 on September 1st in 2023. They were the 7th best team in the AL on that date. A season after they finished 78-84 and were tied for 9th in the AL. Which came a season after they finished 73-89 and were the 13th best team in the AL. Fans were more than a little skeptical about that team. A 100,000 ticket increase from 2022 makes perfect sense when you look at the context and facts. It's not simple regurgitation to state that. The Twins were bellow .500 the 2 previous seasons while struggling to stay above .500 the entire 2023 season. As others have pointed out, 2024 was their shot for real attendance growth and they did literally everything wrong when it came to taking advantage of that. Context and facts should matter still. And the context and facts 100% support there being very little reason for a massive attendance increase in 2023 and the Pohlads, Falvey, and DSP completely and utterly destroying any reasonable chance at the real increase in 2024.