chpettit19

I think this is the core question, though. Did those decisions come from on high or was that all Rocco? He played Lee, Julien, Lewis, Miranda, Wallner, Kirilloff, and Larnach all extensively when they were called up. Minus the platooning of the lefties. I find it impossible to believe that Falvey and the front office nerds (I'm a nerd so that's not a rude word) watched him manage those guys how he did and felt it was the wrong way to do it but didn't change a thing over his entire tenure. Falvey and Rocco talked every day during the season. Multiple times some days. There's no way they were putting their heads together to solve the problems at the end of last year and all of this year watching guys underperform while Falvey thought Rocco was misusing young players and didn't make a change. Falvey believes in those strategies, it's why they were deployed. Falvey didn't bring in the Margot, Luplow, and Garlicks of the world because he thought Rocco would use them any differently than he did. Why should we expect anything other than Rocco 2.0 to be hired? I don't believe Falvey fired Rocco because he disagreed with anything he did. He fired him because the Pohlads said they needed a fall guy and Falvey couldn't just use the hitting coaches again. Falvey believes in these strategies and built teams designed specifically to use them. Change needs to start at the top. Until Falvey goes there's no reason to believe different strategies will be used. Joe Maddon has a lot of great stuff out there about the overreaching of front offices into the clubhouse. He's very open about it being the reason he doesn't manage anymore. If the front office isn't going to change their directives to the manager, then who the manager is doesn't mean much. If they are going to continue to build rosters designed to have players move around a lot and platoon like crazy then we're just going to see the same thing. It all starts at the top. Firing Rocco had to happen. No way you could explain away bringing him back next year. But it doesn't solve any core problems because they all start at the top.

Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree on Larnach and France. France has outhit Clemens his entire career and got legit PAs for the #1 seed in the AL down the stretch. Larnach has a better chance of getting a non-Twins roster spot this offseason than Clemens. By quite a bit. And Lee at least provides possible future value, so giving him PAs down the stretch of a lost season and to start next year makes infinitely more sense than Kody Clemens getting PAs. But that's all besides the point. Kody Clemens wouldn't get an MLB deal in free agency. But he's likely to be on the Twins roster next year because their bar for entrance is set so incredibly low. If he's a super 2 and they pay him more than league minimum it's absolutely an overpay and there's no other team in baseball who would pay him that deal. Ty France made a non-guaranteed $1 million this year. He's outperformed Clemens by a mile in their respective careers and Clemens would be going into free agency at the same age as France when he got that deal from the Twins. Kody Clemens is a minor league player who'd get an invite to training camp. He's not an MLB player. But this article is arguing the Twins should've/would've been happy with Julien being Clemens with the bat. Neither of them are MLB players and it's really not even that close. Thats how badly they've destroyed this team.

Show me those 2000 plate appearances. The Twins had 6059 total PAs this season. Larnach, Buxton, Lee, Jeffers, Lewis, Wallner, France, Clemens, Correa, Castro, and Bader make up 4676 of those PAs. Take out Lee if you want to argue he's worse than career norm Clemens (I'd argue they're essentially the same, but we can take him out) and you're at 4149 PAs amongst those other guys. So, you're already under 2000 PAs without accounting for Luke Keaschall or Austin Martin who add another 388 to the list and now you're at 1522 PAs. So, the starting point for an argument about PAs going to worse players starts at 1500. And if you think Lee playing SS gives him a boost to being better than career norm Clemens since their bats are essentially the same, you're down to under 1000. I will take that bet. If the Twins don't bring him back, Kody Clemens will not be on an opening day roster. He'll be a 30-year-old with limited defensive abilities and a .670 OPS bat. He's a NRI on a minor league deal if the Twins don't bring him back. I fully expect the Twins to bring him back. Like I said, it's not a high bar to make this roster. He won't be the only non-MLB-quality player on it. And that's embarrassing just 2 years after finally winning a playoff series.

I think Outman is safe. While I don't think the FO is as arrogant as others seem to think, I also don't think they're dropping him 2 months after trading a controllable asset for him. Stewart wasn't worth much, but I can't imagine them dropping Outman this quickly after that trade. I think Fitzgerald has a decent chance of sticking around. League minimum bench guy who can play SS seems like a good fit on this roster since I don't expect them to spend any real money. They don't have any other glove that can cover SS and not need everyday time. You're going to play Lee everyday while he's "the guy" there. If/when you call up Culpepper it's to play every day. I think Fitzgerald showed enough to be their bench infielder for league minimum to start the year. Oddly, the selloff may actually "help" (is it really a positive for him to be stuck on this roster?) Larnach stick around. It will come down to what the payroll situation really is. He's not worth what his price will be in arbitration, but they also have so little talent they may keep him around. From what Gleeman has said, it sounds like he has no trade value and nobody wanted him at the deadline. Financially speaking, Larnach will want to stick around. It's his best bet at making 5+ mil next year. But in pure baseball/competitive terms, Larnach should want to be non-tendered so he can look for a role on a competing team even if it cost him a little dough. This will be a very interesting offseason. Not in a fun way where we're hoping for difference makers, but just in the sense that they could turn over nearly the whole 40-man roster from July 31 to opening day and it'd be pretty easy to justify almost all of it. So many open spots available for even halfway decent players.

How many PAs were given to players worse than Julien? Unless your answer is 0 so you're literally arguing he's the worst player in MLB and that's why he doesn't deserve a spot on any roster then I don't understand the argument. 1. The Twins didn't give 2000 PAs to worse players than career norm/June through September Kody Clemens. 2. Just because the Twins, and other teams, had a number of other players who also weren't MLB quality doesn't make Clemens MLB quality. If you're using his season stat line and including the complete and utter outlier that was his month of May in your argument, cool, have at it. Good luck getting the same performance moving forward. But career norm (which is nearly identical to his June through September performance) Kody Clemens is not a major league player. It's why he was available on the waiver wire at the age of 29 with only 402 MLB PAs to his name. I mean this is the Twins in a nutshell. Carrying Jonah Bride on your AAA team the whole season after DFAing him and Kody Clemens on your MLB team the whole season. They have no present or future value. Having people trying to convince themselves a 1B/cOFer who plays a barely passable 2B and brings a .665-.670 OPS bat is a real MLB player. He isn't. And the fact that the bar for entrance onto the Twins 26-man roster is that low explains everything very well.

Milwaukee (friends and family will be happy if they win)> Toronto > San Diego > LA > Cleveland > Seattle > Boston > Philly (would like to see Duran win). Those are the teams I'm cheering for in order. Don't care about the other few.

Clemens doesn't deserve a spot on any MLB team either. He isn't a great defender at a premium position or anything. Kody Clemens is not an MLB player. There's a reason the 29-year-old has never stuck on an MLB team until this joke of a Twins team ran him out there for 112 games and doubled his career PAs. Julien isn't an MLB player, you're right. The point is that Clemens isn't either and giving guys like him nearly 400 PAs is why this team continues to struggle.

If he got to it the same way Clemens did, they shouldn't have been happy with it. It would've just been Julien doing Julien things. Spike short term performance with no staying power. Ignoring the fact that nearly all of Clemens' performance came in a 1-month period of time would be terrible player evaluation on the Twins part. But, based on where the team is at now, I guess you very well could be right. They're going to talk themselves into Clemens being a useful piece and they likely would've done the same with Julien if he had a 1-month outlier. It's why the team lost 92 games. Being happy with performances like that and selling themselves on the idea that the 1-month spike is more meaningful than the 3 months of well below average performance.

Kody Clemens pulled a Julien in a much smaller sample size. Julien was excellent his rookie season while Clemens was excellent his first month here. Julien then fell apart and has been terrible ever since. Clemens also fell apart and has been terrible. The Twins didn't want a 1-month spike in performance followed by an unplayable (on a team with any real talent) 3 months from Julien. Stop trying to make Kody Clemens good because of 1 month. From June 1 through the end of the season Clemens hit .203/.267/.402/.670. His career line is .206/.263/.403/.666. Just stop with him. He is who he is. And an actual good team cut him because he isn't good enough. Julien put up a .220/.309/.324/.633 OPS for the season. Outside of a complete and utter outlier of a month of May, Julien and Clemens put up pretty darn similar numbers. Little more BA and OBP from Julien with more power from Clemens. Essentially the same, unplayable hitter, though.

Means to an end. Need to get the financials right before they can sell because they aren't worth what the Pohlads are asking/demanding. That's clear from them not selling this go round. The other owners don't want the Pohlads to sell for just whatever they can get, they want them in that 1.7 range to keep the price of franchises where they want it. The Pohlads weren't going to invest in the team anyways so you'd then be sitting on a bad and cheap franchise with owners who want out but can't get out for what anyone involved wants them out at. Having a team on the market that can't be sold at the market rate is bad for everyone. The other owners don't want that. They won't tell the Pohlads to sell their team, or even put it up for sale publicly again, until they know they can get the right price for it. The new minority owners help that cause. That's why the other owners will happily approve their money.

Yes. The smart move in baseball from a profit perspective is that if you're going to be bad, be bad as cheaply as possible. It's how you maximize profits because of the revenue sharing rules in place in the CBA. If you're going to lose 90-100+ games in front of an empty stadium, do it with a low payroll. The Twins can't run that low of a payroll for crazy long because the MLBPA will throw a fit, but doing it until after the incredibly likely lockout coming in 2027? They could absolutely do that. And it'd make the Pohlads and their new minority owners (assuming they're approved by the league) a bunch of money. Which is what they care about. So, yes, the logic behind trading Buxton/Pablo/Ryan is to run a bare bones payroll. It's the smart move when you're not concerned about winning and know you're going to set another record for low attendance.

And he's on MLB Network.

Baseball Savant has Wallner at a +1 on fielder runs for his arm. That's tied for 24th in baseball (he's listed at 31). Only 42 guys in baseball have a positive value on their arm for preventing runner advances. Wallner is one of them. They have him with the 4th strongest outfield arm. So, what value, exactly, are you saying they are ranking him 151st on? Because strength and value they have him 4th and 31st. Or 54th (tied for 29th) in value if you go to anyone with 1 attempt. Fielding run value they only have him at 98th and only rank 137 outfielders. OAA he's 85th out of 110. So, what stat exactly do you have him down for 151st in for his arm?

I was an SIS video scout. But fair enough on the DRP.

Buxton's statcast data tells a very different story than this. He's at 4 OAA. He's still amongst the fastest players in the league (100th percentile sprint speed, actually). His reactions are still slow (always have been) but his crazy athleticism continues to make up for it. So, the question then becomes, do you trust the computer tracked data of statcast or the judgements of random interns sitting at computers judging how fast and far Buxton ran? His defense may not be platinum glove anymore, but I think its a massive stretch to say its below average. And there's certainly nobody better in this org.

I haven't seen anything (certainly doesn't mean there hasn't been anything reported) about a timeline for all of it. The owners won't vote until the owners meeting, but I'd assume the rest of the approval process is playing out now. Background checks, financial checks, etc. have to play out. I believe there's an executive committee that goes over things. I'd think the owner vote is mostly a formality, but they won't announce who they are until they've passed all the background and financial checks and that won't be done before the season is over would be my guess.

Because they haven't been approved by MLB yet and they don't actually own any of the Twins organization.

Yes, it is. Being realistic doesn't mean I take things too seriously or however you want to describe what you're suggesting. If I'm going to have a discussion about something, though, I'm going to put thought into it and come to the best, most honest conclusion I can. You're investing the same amount of time and energy into this conversation as I am, but because you have the optimistic view that ignores the reality of where the Twins stand in the national hierarchy your time and effort don't count? It doesn't take me any extra effort to be honest about their position in MLB. I'm home now and will feed and walk my dog before making myself some dinner and enjoying some Master Class and a book. Won't think about this convo again. I don't have to ignore reality and just be blindly positive to keep things in perspective.

If you think Coors only changes offense because of homeruns, you're incredibly wrong, yes. But that isn't even the point. The conversation is about relevance. And Coors Field makes the Rockies relevant because even casual or non-baseball fans know about it. They don't know about Target Field or PNC Park or American Family Field or Great American Ballpark. They aren't the same. Fine, you don't like that the author made the article about just right now? In general, the Twins are in the argument for the least relevant team in baseball. They go after no major free agents. They play in what has been a generally awful and boring division that goes after no major free agents. They have been awful at developing high end talent so have rarely even had major trade assets to ship off. They are almost never in the national conversation. I still follow them. Have my whole life and will continue to the rest of my life. They're my favorite team and always will be. Being honest and realistic about where this organization stands in the hierarchy of Major League Baseball doesn't mean they're going to take my fan card away. It doesn't mean I hate the team. It doesn't mean I'm being negative for no reason. It's just the truth. They were relevant for about 5 years in the late 80s and early 90s, but even in there they went worst to first and were forgotten about immediately in between title runs and immediately afterwards. They're not in the national conversation on a regular basis, now or in a general sense. Even if you want to ignore their current state and just discuss them in general. If you get away from the Twin Cities and Midwest and just talk to general people across the country, the Twins are absolutely in the running for the least relevant team in MLB. There is nothing noteworthy or special about them in a national sense.

They literally had to put a humidor in Coors Field to control how the ball acts there compared to every other field. Until another stadium has to add equipment to control the results on the field, no, it isn't even remotely the same thing. How this is even a discussion is pretty mind blowing. Are you legitimately unaware of the uniqueness of Coors Field in the greater baseball world? At this point in time, a very reasonable argument can be made that the Twins are #30 out of 30. How relevant the Twins are from a national perspective at this point in time is almost entirely tied to whether or not they're going to sell more pieces. Otherwise, they won't be talked about at all by national people. That has nothing to do with a "state of mind" or "feeling." That's just how it is. Because they're a completely irrelevant team right now. It happens. I'm not losing sleep over it. I don't need to "exhale," and my hope for a better future doesn't change their current relevance. It's just the situation they're in right now. It sucks for us Twins fans. But that is the realistic view of things from a national relevance point of view.

Who has said anything about 120 mil for 6 years? That's not a contract anybody has suggested. That'd be an awful contract to hand him. There's literally no reason to ever give a pre-debut player that deal. 1. It buys out 0 years of free agency. So, what's the point? 2. It's like 80-90 mil more than the max he'd make in 6 years if you didn't extend him. You give him 8 years and 60-80 mil. If the Twins can't survive 7.5-10 mil of bad money they've cut this payroll below what anyone is hoping for the next 8 years and that extra 7.5-10 isn't saving them anyways if Jenkins doesn't work out. The Twins already control Ryan through his age 31 season. Extending him and Jenkins are very, very different things. It's going to cost you 25+ a year at a minimum to extend Ryan into his mid-30s. It's not even a comparable conversation.

"Second-rate" in their own market and still draw a million more fans a year.

Those stadiums don't change play results. That's why I said people are fascinated by the difference in offense that specific place provides. Coors Field isn't famous for being a great stadium, it's famous because it literally changes player's stats. That's very different than Target Field and PNC Park being nice stadiums. Joe Mauer playing at Target Field was never part of his HoF discussion. But it was a huge part of Todd Helton's that year. Cutch is not Trout. Trout is in the argument for greatest player of all time. They aren't the same. People who don't follow baseball at all know who Mike Trout is. They didn't know who Cutch was at his peak. Same reason the Mariners will always be relevant, even non-baseball fans know who Junior is. I wish it wasn't something that keeps people talking about teams, but the Marlins have made it an art form. It keeps the Marlins in the national conversation. The author certainly set this up as a discussion on their relevance at this specific point in time. And the negativity around the team plays into that. I think another commentor made a great point that their deadline selloff actually brought them more into relevance because it was so large. But the Twins are never all that high on the relevance scale so it doesn't take a huge dip to put them in the discussion for least relevant team in MLB.

I'd argue that Coors Field keeps the Rockies relevant all the time. People are fascinated by the difference in offense that park provides. I think if you asked a random sampling of people from around the country to name all 30 MLB teams, the Rockies would be named far more often than the Twins. Mile High provides its own eternal relevance. The Angels have Mike Trout. They'll be relevant as long as he refuses to leave there. The Marlins are the face of owner cheapness and have relevance for that. The Nationals, White Sox, and Twins are probably your 3 leaders in the club house.

Tanking your career is not the best way to do that. Going into your age 28 season as a guy who can't hit AAA pitching is a really poor career strategy no matter what the Twins organization is like.