Where Are The Twins Getting It Wrong?

Hopefully the FO learns from this year’s unpredictability and truly commits to a full blown youth movement in 2019.

 

I mean we traded Pressly, might as well trade Gibson, Odorizzi, and Castro too.

whos gonna be in the youth movement? They wont have a catcher, 2nd baseman/shortstop, closer, or any reliable set up men. people dont get how important Pressly, Duke, and Rodney were. Now that we have to worry about it they will. I see us building a pitching staff so that we can become the first mlb team to employ the opener every day

The 40 man roster for the Twins  is in my opinion weakest has been in my lifetime for the coming year. There is not one posiitional player based on this year performance i would like to see for next year. Sano and Buxton if they turns things around could be drawing cards, Rosario i like to watch but not one i would drive 300 miles to see and Kepler may become a player i would like to watch in the future. Show me who are future stars on 40 man roster that are not on the 25 man roster right now. We have traded away Dozier, Escobar, Pressley, and bunch of other signees for prospects but not one prospect is above high A meaning we have at least 3 years until help arrives if ever it arrives. Dozier we got basically nothing for him and now were going to have to sign someone to replace him. This is where I see big gap in there plan or should I say It may not be because were heading for failure so they will get a high draft pick. For all you people out there the Twins are not going sign any free agents next year and all this money they freed up will never be spent. They may trade some of there prospects for closer prospect to the majors but here again I betting this doesn't happen here again because the cost will to be high for who ever they are trading with. My guess is we loose about high 90's games next year and year after to continue to build the farm system. Were on rebuild of not winning until 2022 to 2023 when all there current high A prospects have reached and they will have all system filled with three years of loosing. Just be patient they will tell you but by then we will be looking at more than 12 years of loosing with exception of last year and the one two years prior to that. I will then be 65 if I am lucky to see the Twins win again and I am getting worried I may not live long enough to see them be winner again. 

 

Do they?  

 

Until this the Cubs were the most notorious abusers of this....have you seen any meaningful impact?

You don't think players inside the Twins clubhouse and across the league, as well as agents, have paid attention to how this situation has unfolded? 

 

Can you name another instance where a player who put up 5+ bWAR the previous season and won the Platinum Glove was left off expanded rosters to stop his service clock?

 

Kris Bryant hadn't spent a single day with the Cubs when they decided not to bring him up. Buxton has been accruing time for 3+ seasons. 

Only people from Minnesota can be GM? Nope.

Maybe I should clarify....only people from Minnesota, or those that have ties to the organization SHOULD be the General Manager of The Minnesota Twins.. I never thought we'd see a day when this would be an issue after Carl Pohlad bought the team but....its clear to me that it is. As I stated in an earlier post , even Andy McPhail was not given total unquestionable control when he was hired in 1986. He was smart enough to know he didn't know all the answers so he asked for help. That is when Ralph Houk was brought in to sort of smooth out the transition to a new GM and a relatively brand new Field Manager ....a guy named Kelly I think...yeah Tom Kelly. Remember him? I think there may be a gate #10 somewhere...Thats not in honor of Lyman Bostock. Edited September 12, 2018 by Channing1964

1.) I mean, you do realize that the Rangers and Indians already had GMs right? That the way you become a GM is you come up under someone good and then other teams that don't have good GMs hire the assistants of good GMs to see if they can replicate that good work. You get that right? That's how the system works. If they were still working for the Rangers and Indians it would be because they weren't any good and no one else wanted them.

 

2.) The Rangers are a bad team because they kept trying to be middle-of-the-pack. And the Indians have a long history of trading away players to rebuild/retool.

 

3.) Yes, we should totally judge front offices by one game. That's the only fair way. Though I think you're not going far enough. We should judge them on one inning. Or maybe one batter? How about one pitch?

 

Here's another hint. If you're using phrases like "whiz kids" pejoratively, you're probably not making a reasoned argument.

It is quite possible to take my sarcasm in a literal way. I apologize for failing to see that everyone doesnt seem to recognize the image that Falvine and Levine appear to be portraying to me, so i shall try to tone down the sarcasm. Heres the take ...It doesnt matter how old you are, how long you've had your job, or where you came from, to come off as smug , elitist, and arrogant is never going to win over many real fans. The way they handled the trading of Escobar completely infuriated me. I have had long term friends from New York to Los Angeles tell me that they never thought they would see the Minnesota Twins pull such bush league move. But thats not all. Did anyone see the post game interview by Ervin Santana after (probably his last game) he pitched in Detroit? He mentions how they are trying to do their job and win games but its hard when every day another one of their important pieces are taken from them. The next day it was announced he was shut down for the year due to recurring injury complications.That was Bull. 12 hours earlier he was telling reporters how it was getting better and better with each outing. At the very least he should have been able to get some innings in and at least audition for a trade or a 2019 deal. We all know he's never coming back here ever again unless its to shut us out. THIS was a team leader that a lot...and i mean a LOT of latin players look up to and listen to. When he doesn't reach his incentives and it hurts his future you can bet he wont be quiet about it. And then the whole Buxton situation happened AFTER that. There is one way to treat people that isnt legally wrong but ethically? I think we all agree its going to take a lot more money now to convince any top tier free agents to come here. Also these young guys are going to think twice about staying here after they've seen first hand what happened to guys like Dozier and Escobar. These kind of amateurish first year executive moves arent going to go unnoticed among the Twins players or players on other teams. So Yeah i do think that the Dynamic Duo sees themselves as the kings of the world, accountable to nobody. I'll still be a Twins fan when this doesnt work out and they are banging on doors in Cleveland and Arlington trying to get their old jobs back.

I agree with this 100%. Its not uncommon for the younger generation of folks. too much interaction on the hand held computers and not learning to actually talk to people face to face. No communication skills in many of the young generation.

I totally agree. Be a man, make the phone call to Molitor and let him tell the whole team in private about trading Eduardo. That was a slap in Molitors face.I will never forget the look on his face when he saw it on tv. He already had made out a line up card with Escobar's name on it. Then they both show up the next day in Boston supposedly to meet with the team. That is Bull too. They joked about how they stayed away from the bat rack.(that probably was a good idea) ....Falvine is from that area. They probably went there to have dinner at his mom's house. Jeeze i gotta drop this whole subject...I cant even look at a score without my blood boiling.

The 40 man roster for the Twins is in my opinion weakest has been in my lifetime for the coming year. There is not one posiitional player based on this year performance i would like to see for next year. Sano and Buxton if they turns things around could be drawing cards, Rosario i like to watch but not one i would drive 300 miles to see and Kepler may become a player i would like to watch in the future. Show me who are future stars on 40 man roster that are not on the 25 man roster right now. We have traded away Dozier, Escobar, Pressley, and bunch of other signees for prospects but not one prospect is above high A meaning we have at least 3 years until help arrives if ever it arrives. Dozier we got basically nothing for him and now were going to have to sign someone to replace him. This is where I see big gap in there plan or should I say It may not be because were heading for failure so they will get a high draft pick. For all you people out there the Twins are not going sign any free agents next year and all this money they freed up will never be spent. They may trade some of there prospects for closer prospect to the majors but here again I betting this doesn't happen here again because the cost will to be high for who ever they are trading with. My guess is we loose about high 90's games next year and year after to continue to build the farm system. Were on rebuild of not winning until 2022 to 2023 when all there current high A prospects have reached and they will have all system filled with three years of loosing. Just be patient they will tell you but by then we will be looking at more than 12 years of loosing with exception of last year and the one two years prior to that. I will then be 65 if I am lucky to see the Twins win again and I am getting worried I may not live long enough to see them be winner again.

Amen to that I dont have time to wait for fhese two first year geniuses play fantasy baseball with my Twins. Who or what convinced Whoever that these guys are greatest thing since sliced bread? On the outside they spit new age analytics but underneath they are products of a good ole boy network of yes men who make sure to carry on a legacy started in Texas and Cleveland. Last time I checked we've won two titles since Cleveland won ANYTHING. And Texas is certainly not on my list of places im gonna go looking for the next new General Manager recruit. Carrying Jon Daniels briefcase for eleven years doesnt qualify you to get the opportunity to dismantle and sabotage my lifelong team. Put the Indians in the AL East or West and they wont smell the playoffs for 20 years. They dont impress me one bit. And I'm entitled to that opinion until you show me a championship they have ever won since 1954. Edited September 12, 2018 by Channing1964

 

The 40 man roster for the Twins  is in my opinion weakest has been in my lifetime for the coming year. There is not one posiitional player based on this year performance i would like to see for next year. Sano and Buxton if they turns things around could be drawing cards, Rosario i like to watch but not one i would drive 300 miles to see and Kepler may become a player i would like to watch in the future. Show me who are future stars on 40 man roster that are not on the 25 man roster right now. We have traded away Dozier, Escobar, Pressley, and bunch of other signees for prospects but not one prospect is above high A meaning we have at least 3 years until help arrives if ever it arrives. Dozier we got basically nothing for him and now were going to have to sign someone to replace him. This is where I see big gap in there plan or should I say It may not be because were heading for failure so they will get a high draft pick. For all you people out there the Twins are not going sign any free agents next year and all this money they freed up will never be spent. They may trade some of there prospects for closer prospect to the majors but here again I betting this doesn't happen here again because the cost will to be high for who ever they are trading with. My guess is we loose about high 90's games next year and year after to continue to build the farm system. Were on rebuild of not winning until 2022 to 2023 when all there current high A prospects have reached and they will have all system filled with three years of loosing. Just be patient they will tell you but by then we will be looking at more than 12 years of loosing with exception of last year and the one two years prior to that. I will then be 65 if I am lucky to see the Twins win again and I am getting worried I may not live long enough to see them be winner again. 

Let's take this step by step:

1.  We were getting nothing for Dozier, he was leaving at the end of the year and not coming back.  A QO to me was out of the question.  Prospects we got may not be great, but De Jong may be a piece, too early to tell.

2.  Even if Gonsalves is a AAAA type, Twins should have a passible rotation next year, Berrios, Gibson, Oderizzi, Pineda, and a group of De Jong, Stewart, Little and maybe Thorpe should have enough to get us by.  This group will not be great, but could be better than this year. 

3. If Sano and Buxton recover somewhat, our offense should be playable.  Castro and Garver at catcher, Austin and Kepler at 1B(if we do not resign Mauer), FA at 2B or SS.  Polonco at one Middle infield position, Sano at 3B. Rosario, Buxton, Kepler and Cave in the outfield. Maybe Wade can make it.  You have the room and the money for some decent FA signings in the position market, and the openings are were you do not have to break the bank, unless you want to go top shelf.(would be nice, do not expect it.)

4.  Relief Pitchers have plenty out there, 4 top end closers and multiple other guys.  Would like to see Twins spend in this area, but am not sure who they want.  Kimbel, Miller, Herridia, come to mind and I am sure there are others.  

I am looking at several mid range short term signings 2 - 3 years max.  Outside of Rodgers and Hildenberg do not think Twins have much in the way of relievers coming back, but expect a few of them to be here (moya, may, Duffey) along with hopefully a couple or three decent signings)

 

This will get you a mid range club with some playoff hopes.  Rest of the division outside of Cleveland is a dumpster fire and 3 - 5 years away from even thinking about contending (yes the White Sox may be closer, but have little at the major league level (outside of decent starting pitching) at this time.

 

Amen to that I dont have time to wait for fhese two first year geniuses play fantasy baseball with my Twins. Who or what convinced Whoever that these guys are greatest thing since sliced bread? On the outside they spit new age analytics but underneath they are products of a good ole boy network of yes men who make sure to carry on a legacy started in Texas and Cleveland. Last time I checked we've won two titles since Cleveland won ANYTHING. And Texas is certainly not on my list of places im gonna go looking for the next new General Manager recruit. Carrying Jon Daniels briefcase for eleven years doesnt qualify you to get the opportunity to dismantle and sabotage my lifelong team. Put the Indians in the AL East or West and they wont smell the playoffs for 20 years. They dont impress me one bit. And I'm entitled to that opinion until you show me a championship they have ever won since 1954.

 

You seem to forget they were 3 outs away from a championship a few years ago.  And they have had other teams that were contenders (and still will be with the outstanding starting pitching they have for a short term series).  They have been close a few times, we have not won a playoff game since 2004 and took advantage of the same weak division that Cleveland is taking advantage of now.

Let's take this step by step:

1. We were getting nothing for Dozier, he was leaving at the end of the year and not coming back. A QO to me was out of the question. Prospects we got may not be great, but De Jong may be a piece, too early to tell.

2. Even if Gonsalves is a AAAA type, Twins should have a passible rotation next year, Berrios, Gibson, Oderizzi, Pineda, and a group of De Jong, Stewart, Little and maybe Thorpe should have enough to get us by. This group will not be great, but could be better than this year.

3. If Sano and Buxton recover somewhat, our offense should be playable. Castro and Garver at catcher, Austin and Kepler at 1B(if we do not resign Mauer), FA at 2B or SS. Polonco at one Middle infield position, Sano at 3B. Rosario, Buxton, Kepler and Cave in the outfield. Maybe Wade can make it. You have the room and the money for some decent FA signings in the position market, and the openings are were you do not have to break the bank, unless you want to go top shelf.(would be nice, do not expect it.)

4. Relief Pitchers have plenty out there, 4 top end closers and multiple other guys. Would like to see Twins spend in this area, but am not sure who they want. Kimbel, Miller, Herridia, come to mind and I am sure there are others.

I am looking at several mid range short term signings 2 - 3 years max. Outside of Rodgers and Hildenberg do not think Twins have much in the way of relievers coming back, but expect a few of them to be here (moya, may, Duffey) along with hopefully a couple or three decent signings)

 

This will get you a mid range club with some playoff hopes. Rest of the division outside of Cleveland is a dumpster fire and 3 - 5 years away from even thinking about contending (yes the White Sox may be closer, but have little at the major league level (outside of decent starting pitching) at this time.

They say they have the financial flexibility but i am questioning their recognition of talent all across the board. Falvey is supposed to be a master at spotting pitching prowess because of Kluber. Hahaahaaaa that will be the only time Matt Belisle will ever be compared to Corey Kluber. The way they have treated the players since the break this year is gonna make it real difficult to convince ANY decent players to even listen to us.

To me its simple...are they injury prone, where do they come from? Is it a winning program or organization?, What do former coaches, managers, and teammates have to say about them, do they stay out of trouble?, and are they "Winners?" Doesnt sound like too much homework to me ...but then its not their money anyways. You can always tank the season, trade ten guys for suspects and never wills, admit you were wrong and apologize to the fans and season ticket holders for putting them through two months of loser AAAA baseball, then pat yourself on the back for the team you might see in 2023.

 

They say they have the financial flexibility but i am questioning their recognition of talent all across the board. Falvey is supposed to be a master at spotting pitching prowess because of Kluber. Hahaahaaaa that will be the only time Matt Belisle will ever be compared to Corey Kluber. The way they have treated the players since the break this year is gonna make it real difficult to convince ANY decent players to even listen to us.

The jury is out, but the last two drafts have me very hopeful for the future.  The only reason the Twins farm system is not in the top 10 is because most of the better players are 2 - 4 years away.  I expect them to jump up in the rankings over the next year.

The new FO started with a low Farm system, because when they took over most of the top talent had already graduated to the Twins and you can say what you want, but TR drafties and signings have produced 5 starting players for the current Twins.  This does not count the pitching staff.  Not a horrible set of years considering where he started from.

 

To me its simple...are they injury prone, where do they come from? Is it a winning program or organization?, What do former coaches, managers, and teammates have to say about them, do they stay out of trouble?, and are they "Winners?" Doesnt sound like too much homework to me ...but then its not their money anyways. You can always tank the season, trade ten guys for suspects and never wills, admit you were wrong and apologize to the fans and season ticket holders for putting them through two months of loser AAAA baseball, then pat yourself on the back for the team you might see in 2023.

 

Outside of Pressly( which is looking like a mistake, though he is an FA I believe after 2019), none of the players traded were going to be here without resigning after this season (maybe Rodney). Most were the old getting something for nothing (and you hope that maybe one of the new players or more hit).

Um ... it's basically due to the fact that the team lost five starters for large chunks of the season due to injury or suspension by the time the trade deadline rolled around.

 

Ervin Santana

Jason Castro

Jorge Polanco

Byron Buxton

Miguel Sano

 

I'm sorry, but any team that loses four position players from its starting nine and its opening day starter is going to struggle. 

 

Add to that the struggles of Brian Dozier, who apparently suffered from a knee injury in April and simply wasn't the same all year long, plus the poor performances of free agent pickups Logan Morrison, Lance Lynn and especially Addison Reed.

 

We can nitpick around the edges all we want. But the signings didn't work out and too many players were lost to injury or suspension. By the time the trade deadline rolled around the Twins were seven games out of first place and opted to sell, which only made matters worse. 

Reading between the lines, there are some people who just can’t accept that the Twins were sellers or as they see it gave up on the season. Ironically, most of those same people are complaining the 40 man is in horrible shape. Yet, somehow they look at a very poorly performing team with very little in the high minors and deplore the very actions required to rectify the situation.

 

The disdain for “giving up” is an opportunity to portray everything they do in the worst possible light. Granted there are a couple things that were not handled ideally but to rant about the arrogant whiz kids auditioning for a gig in a larger market does not suggest an objective point of view. Teams selling off free agents in a lost season is baseball management 101. You can’t rant about how bad the team is positioned and at the same time ridicule the FO for selling. An Executive’s role and responsibilities are long-term in nature. Short-term focused fans are going to have a problem with a F/O looking to build sustainable systems, processes and practices. I want to watch a better brand of baseball year after year and short-term thinking is death of sustained performance.

Lots and lots of great discussion.

 

First off, the Twins hired two guys, a general manager and a VP of Operations (somehow they couldn't give him the title of President). Because of playoffs, they started their of-season late. SUpposedly they were given power to make changes, but - because of starting late - they limited changes in the front office and scouting and even on the field. They also inherited a manager who was the darling of the owner. But they also inherited the worst won/loss record in Twins history.

 

They saw one major area of weakness. They signed Castro to a three year deal...not because he was a great hitter but because he works with pitchers. They signed Gimenez to be a backup. They had Garver in the wings. The Twins lost their other top-notch catching prospect in the Rule 5 (remember Stu Turner anyone?). So, Castro...or bring back Suzuki. You tell me. I like Suzuki. Maybe we should've kept him, too. No one knew the guy to catch young pitchers would be disabled msot of 2018.

 

2017. The Twins were competitive in a weak division...actually a weak league. They got a Wild Card spot. Whew. You don't fire a manager of the year. You give him an extension (and how do you think about that now?). Happily, teams can eat a manager's contract moreso than a player contract. Suddenly you were looking at a solid core than needed to improve (Buxton, Rosario, Kepler, Polanco, Berrios, Sano and a number of bullpen arms). 

 

Now step back for a moment. These young guys in the front office set a plan. They have, supposedly, five years to implement their plan. I';m sure 2017 was spent evaluating everything possible. Changes WERE made in minor league management, some scouting choices, adding more analytics to the ront office, having some fine drafts, picking up a Braves limbo player. Looking at Class A+Ft Myers and below, the duo have done an excellent job of restocking the minor leagues. 2019 will show if the Twins have more than 4-5 GREAT prspects in their top 30 or top 50.

 

MINOR NOTE: No team wants to announce that they are in total rebuild mode. That players will be given an opportunity to fail on their way to being, possibly great. It doesn't sell tickets. So, you have to develop spin. "Getting pieces ot be competitive" "players need time to improve" "a real bargain that produces" "free beer," The Twins appeared hot going into 2018. The town was Super Bowl happy, Vikings high, but the Twins looked like they could battle with Cleveland for the top of the division, especially as the season began.

 

What did the Twins do in the off-season? They needed to strengthen the rotation. They did make a serious run at Yu, someone who would fit into the five year plan. They dangled money. But they weren't the Cubs. They looked around and explored other opportunities. They found Jake Odorizzi, a controllable pitcher that they gave shortstop depth to obtain. Odorizzi, if he has a fine 2018, could be signed for 3-4-5 yers and fit into the longterm plans. (He still can). That was the thinking of Odorizzi. Some ways, same with Pineda,who they were going to get a small look at this season. Both will be trade bait or resigns next season.

 

They managed to sign Lance Lynn for a decent one-year contract. If he produced and love the town, he could come back. We saw how that worked out, but we did get a remarkable return for him, albeit eating his salary.

 

The Twins did a good job adding arms to the bullpen. Both Rodney and Reed were options to staying another season, Duke will be back on the market, so who knows. 

 

Logan Morrison was a bargain. Who would think he would have that most horrible start and flay at the ball all season. But, happily, these signings were placesetters and the Twins managed to turn some into stocking a system that was hurt minutely because, for the first time in years, the Twins had lowly draft picks (although they did a good jop...look at Larnach and Jeffers, for example).

 

Who would've thought Castro, Santana, Polanco, Sano and Buxton would absically go down. Go figure.

 

Long-term contracts  Always a gamble. Somehow the Twins didn't seem to want Dozier. Guessed right? What will his value be in the off-season. Many thought 2017 was a fluke for Escobar. Throughout his tenure with the Twins he got as much praise as Eddie Rosario, people always finding fault about some of the play, yet the player keeps producing and you scratch your head. At what point does a player get a BIG contract? Always a gamble. The Twins MIGHT be able to revisit Escobar. Now the question is HOW MUCH DO YOU PAY ROSARIO.

 

The youthful four turned down extensiuon. Berrios brings more to the bargaining table and the Twins need to up the offer. We will see. Sano, Buxton and Kepler are all treading water. If we had signed any of them for 3-5 years and say...$50 million each...how much love would we be giving them right now? Happily the Twins still have more time to evaluate and make offers and figure if they should still be here in 2021.

 

That is the team that the Twins are building. 2021. 

 

Oh, the current roster "sucks" bigtime. Only 3-4 names MIGHT be added of prospects to the 40-man. We will still have names like Grossman, Drake, Atudillo, Field, Slegers and mroe on the 40-man. But if the ront office finds someone better, some of those names will be replaced. There is no need to replace them with minor league guys who can still come to spring camp and light up play and possibly break camp.

 

Yes, I would like to see a few more guys given an early opportunity. Nick Gordon two years away? Rooker needs more seasoning? Thorpe not ready? In some ways I can understand. But IF the person fills a hole (be it second or shortstop - what happened to people saying Polanco is a better second baseman than shortstop)...I would err on giving a guy a chance.

 

But then we come to Buxton. Should he be allowed to fail even more? Cave is pretty decent. But why do we play Kepler and not Buxton? Is Cave the future of the center outfield (no, Krilloff is). If Buxton is ailing, shut him down...too bad he is on the minor league roster and not getting service time...still getting paid, right? Remember that Gibson went down to the minors last year, and many of us said he should not be offered arbitration...now the Twins are thinking of signing him to be a part of the 2021 experience.) Glen Perkins was removed from the 40-man roster at one point. Things happen in baseball. Sometimes you may be "the Real Deal" but no one wants you. Go figure. Maybe NONE of the names bandied around WILL be a part of the Twins of 2020 or 2021. Go back and look at roster changes over three seasons, over five seasons. 20%? 25% Stay? 

 

Now the team has to figure out how to sell the team to fans. That is the Big Question? Will Mauer retiring cause a setback? Or will signing Mauer to do WHAT? be praised? Joe, still a face of the franchise, is still just Minnesota Nice, which is a nice way to say it. Will Tyler Austin take his palce? Well Brent Rooker become a BIG name? Only time will tell.

 

The Twins do have a chance to spend money like they did last year. Maybe gamble on some free agents for a season that they can flip or possibly resign, if need be...especially in the bullpen.  Some of that is where they see prospects that they wish to play being in 2019...coming up mid-season or just September looksees. Again, prospects get called whenr regular players go down, so that is a plus for seeing the future, too.

 

Oh, and Ryan Pressly. One of those good Rule 5s. Had a tough 2017 (even though I thought he had closer potential). Had a solid season, even though Molitor would drag him out every othr game for almost any situation...bad overuse. Be interesting to see how the Astros use him. I want to think of him as Jesse Crain, the closer we allowed to get away. But hopefully, like Jesse, he doesn't flame out. I wish him the best and happy the Twins managed to grab a couple of prospects from the rich Astros system, which was part of the thinking of the front office. Some teams have good prospects that they can't keep...if you have the opportunity to go after them do so.

 

And to the comment that the Twins barely make it into the Top 7 of minor league farm systems...well, there are 23 more behind us that wish they were in the Top 7.