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    Deadline Primer: Are Twins Buyers Or Sellers?


    Nick Nelson

    As the Minnesota Twins head into the All-Star break, two games above .500 and very much in the postseason mix, they are coming up on some important decisions that could help shape the final months of this season, and beyond.

    Above all, they must take a hard look at who they are, and where they're at, then make a critical determination: will they enter the upcoming deadline as buyers or sellers?

    Image courtesy of Brad Rempel, USA Today

    Twins Video

    First, let's quickly take stock of a first half that's been tremendously redeeming for the organization and its fans.

    Where Things Stand

    Last season's mess was a painful slog for all involved. The Twins entered the break with a 32-56 record, already long erased from any kind of relevance. Setbacks and struggles were vastly outweighing any positive developments.

    What a difference a year makes.

    This season hasn't been without its misfortunes and letdowns, but everywhere you look, there are fun, energizing storylines.

    Ervin Santana is approximating an ace with his performance; he's already tied his career high with four complete games, giving him more than any other team in the league.

    Miguel Sano is fulfilling his immense potential, showing prodigious power that makes him a favorite in Monday night's Home Run Derby.

    Closer Brandon Kintzler will join the two in the All-Star Game on Tuesday, as one of the best current stories in baseball.

    In 2016, the team's play was characterized by poor fundamentals and losing streaks that extended into agonizing droughts. In 2017, we have seen vastly improved defense and a newfound resilience.

    A year ago by this time the Twins already had already endured four losing streaks of five or more games; this season it hasn't happened once.

    Beyond the improved competitiveness, this club has simply been entertaining to watch. Sano hits the baseball as hard as anyone I've ever seen. Jose Berrios is electrifying on the mound. Byron Buxton is turning himself into a human highlight reel by doing things like this and this and

    and this:

    https://twitter.com/cjzer0/status/883535079171137537

    Yes, just as Buxton scampered 270 feet from first to home in seemingly the blink of an eye, the Twins have come a long way in 12 months. But are they ready to make a real push for the playoffs?

    The answer will dictate their strategy over the next three weeks.

    The Case For Buying

    Opportunities like this don't necessarily come along often. The Twins are getting career years from players in key spots – namely, at the top of their rotation (Santana) and back end of their bullpen (Kintzler). Given the lack of quality depth in those units, and the lack of future assurance for either, this is a fortuitous alignment that should not go to waste.

    Any talk of a theoretical timeline in which young players continue to mature and more prospects join in seems to overrate the likelihood of such outcomes reaching fruition, while underrating the value of guys like Santana and Kintzler doing what they are doing.

    Neither is the prototype for his role. The Twins aren't the prototype for a World Series contender. But they are getting it done, and they continue to do so. The combination of a scrappy young club, finally coming into its own, with a front office showing a refreshing quickness to react and willingness to experiment, builds intrigue over what could happen the rest of the way.

    More prospects could enter the fold. Perhaps Minnesota catches lightning in a bottle with someone like Dillon Gee or Bartolo Colon. But there's no doubt about this: the Twins need some outside help in order to shore up inhibiting weaknesses.

    Provided they can acquire players with control extending beyond this year, and can avoid parting with assets critical to their continued emergence, heading into the deadline as buyers doesn't necessitate sacrificing the future.

    The Case For Selling

    Derek Falvey and Thad Levine came into their jobs with a big-picture focus. If that meant building the best possible clubs for 2018, 2019, and beyond, then things have certainly played out favorably for them during the first three months.

    Whereas last year's deadline didn't bring much drama due to lack of attractive saleable parts, this year the Twins have trade chips of legitimate interest to top contenders. Pitching is at a premium, as always, and the Twins have a pair of All-Star arms capable of helping anyone.

    While the ride has been fun thus far, an analytical front office will recognize that this club is not really equipped for a championship run. Their postseason odds are at 20 percent, they're outperforming their Pythagorean W/L record substantially, and their flaws glare against quality teams.

    The fact that they're on the fringe of contention, and hardly motivated sellers, gives the Twins leverage in negotiations that didn't exist last year. If they can identify and acquire either young MLB pitchers or prospects on the brink, it's a savvy long-term strategy.

    Why The Next Two Weeks Will Decide Everything

    Here's the problem with the savvy strategy mentioned above: if things stay as they are, it is not really an option in practical terms.

    A reader of Twins Daily might be sold on the wisdom of waving a white flag in order to bolster future odds and supplement the pitching pipeline. But the casual fan, or the actual players who have worked to get to this point? Not so much.

    This franchise has endured a demoralizing run over the past half-decade, and making moves that optically resemble giving up just won't play. Of course, this could all change over the next two weeks.

    The Twins come out of the break with a very tough run. They first head to Houston for a three-game series against the American League's best team. We all remember what happened when the Astros came to Target Field. Minnesota follows up that challenge with a homestand against the Yankees and Tigers, two offenses capable of dismantling a weak pitching staff. Afterwards, it's off to Los Angeles for a daunting matchup against the NL's best team, the Dodgers.

    It's entirely possible that the Twins find themselves well below .500 after running through this gauntlet. At that point, the decision sort of makes itself. So really, if the players in this group want to make a push, they hold their destiny in their own hands.

    Stay Tuned

    Make sure to visit Twins Daily regularly over the coming weeks. We promise to cover the deadline – with all its rumors and speculation – more exhaustively than any other spot. Follow us on Twitter for up-to-the-minute updates. And if you aren't already, please join the conversation by creating an account and sharing your own thoughts.

    Will the Twins act as buyers at the end of the month? It's hard to know right now. But that sure would beat the alternative.

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    Love Neshek. But if the Twins burn a prospect on a two month reliever rental in an effort to reach the coin flip game with a team that currently ranks second from the bottom of the A.L in third order win percentage, then my 'let's give it a couple of years' phase of the FaLeveyine era will end instantly, because I'll know pretty much everything I need to about their odds of bringing meaningful success to the Twins. 

    Edited by LaBombo

     

    Love Neshek. But if the Twins burn a prospect on a two month reliever rental in an effort to reach the coin flip game with a team that currently ranks second from the bottom of the A.L in third order win percentage, then my 'let's give it a couple of years' phase of the FaLeveyine era will end instantly, because I'll know absolutely everything I need to about their odds of bringing meaningful success to the Twins. 

     

    Amen....Must trade Santana as well if a quality package is offered (and I think it will be)

    Love Neshek. But if the Twins burn a prospect on a two month reliever rental in an effort to reach the coin flip game with a team that currently ranks second from the bottom of the A.L in third order win percentage, then my 'let's give it a couple of years' phase of the FaLeveyine era will end instantly, because I'll know pretty much everything I need to about their odds of bringing meaningful success to the Twins.

     

    Grrrrr.... I don't want them trading away a Nick Gordon for a two month rental, but I do want pitching at some point very soon. Like, now. We are playing a poor hand at the moment, but so is everyone else in the Central. No guarantee what the standings will look like a year from now!

     

    Grrrrr.... I don't want them trading away a Nick Gordon for a two month rental, but I do want pitching at some point very soon. Like, now. We are playing a poor hand at the moment, but so is everyone else in the Central. No guarantee what the standings will look like a year from now!

    I get it, we don't want a continuous rebuilding project, and anything can happen in the playoffs. In theory. And a guy like Neshek shouldn't cost us a guy like Gordon.

     

    But the thing is, you can't trade for just Neshek. You absolutely need to also go get a 3-ish starting pitcher to be relevant in the American League in September. And that will most definitely cost you a Nick Gordon or the like.

     

    If the Twins had fought their opponents so far this season to a draw in run differential, it might be easier for me to fathom the Twins converting their minor league talent 'surplus' (*shudder*) into MLB pitching with the idea that it would make them a serious contender.

     

    As it stands, I've seen a Twins team that's been much more fun to watch than I expected, and yet not really much better than I expected. And what I expected was a team clearly improved from what it was last year, but just as clearly not ready to contend. That's still how they look to me, despite the W/L record.

     

     

    I get it, we don't want a continuous rebuilding project, and anything can happen in the playoffs. In theory. And a guy like Neshek shouldn't cost us a guy like Gordon.

     

    But the thing is, you can't trade for just Neshek. You absolutely need to also go get a 3-ish starting pitcher to be relevant in the American League in September. And that will most definitely cost you a Nick Gordon or the like.

     

    If the Twins had fought their opponents so far this season to a draw in run differential, it might be easier for me to fathom the Twins converting their minor league talent 'surplus' (*shudder*) into MLB pitching with the idea that it would make them a serious contender.

     

    As it stands, I've seen a Twins team that's been much more fun to watch than I expected, and yet not really much better than I expected. And what I expected was a team clearly improved from what it was last year, but just as clearly not ready to contend. That's still how they look to me, despite the W/L record.

    Stop making me confront reality!

     

    Stop making me confront reality!

     

    Look at the bright side. As often as I'm wrong about the Twins, about baseball in general, and frankly about everything else in life as well, I'm probably reverse-jinxing the Twins right into the postseason by predicting they won't/can't make the kind of trades required to have a shot at contention.

    Edited by LaBombo

     

    Twins win, Cleveland loses, game and a half back.

    Of course

    If we finish first in the AL Central it won't be because we won it, it will be because the other teams lost it. Do not give up one prospect. Whether we make a trade or not, the best we can hope for is to lose the wild card game or to get swept in the ALDS.

    Love Neshek. But if the Twins burn a prospect on a two month reliever rental in an effort to reach the coin flip game with a team that currently ranks second from the bottom of the A.L in third order win percentage, then my 'let's give it a couple of years' phase of the FaLeveyine era will end instantly, because I'll know pretty much everything I need to about their odds of bringing meaningful success to the Twins.

     

    Even though there is no way we win in the playoffs this year I think it would be good to get some playoff experience for these young guys. I feel like that would be a really good thing for the development of our guys to make a run in the next few years. To trade for Neshek would probably not cost a high end prospect either, what does everyone think? Would trading Palka for Neshek be too much, too little, or just about right?

    I get it, we don't want a continuous rebuilding project, and anything can happen in the playoffs. In theory. And a guy like Neshek shouldn't cost us a guy like Gordon.

     

    But the thing is, you can't trade for just Neshek. You absolutely need to also go get a 3-ish starting pitcher to be relevant in the American League in September. And that will most definitely cost you a Nick Gordon or the like.

     

    If the Twins had fought their opponents so far this season to a draw in run differential, it might be easier for me to fathom the Twins converting their minor league talent 'surplus' (*shudder*) into MLB pitching with the idea that it would make them a serious contender.

     

    As it stands, I've seen a Twins team that's been much more fun to watch than I expected, and yet not really much better than I expected. And what I expected was a team clearly improved from what it was last year, but just as clearly not ready to contend. That's still how they look to me, despite the W/L record.

    They need that starter for next year, too. Why not get one now?

     

    Run differential means zero going forward, btw. They don't reset the W/l record at the AS break to "what it should have been."

    Even though there is no way we win in the playoffs this year I think it would be good to get some playoff experience for these young guys. I feel like that would be a really good thing for the development of our guys to make a run in the next few years. To trade for Neshek would probably not cost a high end prospect either, what does everyone think? Would trading Palka for Neshek be too much, too little, or just about right?

    Given that you and Palka have the same value.......

     

    They need that starter for next year, too. Why not get one now?

    Run differential means zero going forward, btw. They don't reset the W/l record at the AS break to "what it should have been."

     

    Not only does the idea of a good trade for a starting pitcher not bother me at all, it now seems almost unavoidable to me if the Twins want to field a competitive rotation in 2018.

     

    But my concern is that a trade made at the deadline will come with the kind of high cost and limited selection that you usually expect from multiple trades that happen during a short timeframe in a seller's market.

     

    Trading away significantly more assets or settling for less of a pitcher than in an otherwise comparable offseason deal in order to 'get someone now' to help contend seems to me like it could be a step backward in the Twins' effort to play postseason baseball, even if that pitcher were signed through 2018.

     

    As for run differential, it looks like its predictive value at any given point in a season depends on who you believe. It seems like the majority of the BProp/Fangraphs/etc stuff tends to lean towards 70 games or so as a tipping point at which run differential becomes a good predictive tool for the W/L performance of a team over the rest of the season. At 90 games it takes a lot to break free of the wins & losses trajectory that previous run differential has put a team on for the rest of the way.

     

    On the other hand, if FalLeviney are smarter than run differential about the Twins' competitiveness the rest of the way and can get a '2018 or beyond' guy that they really like, before the deadline and without overpaying significantly for the last two months of his 2017, well, have at it, boys, and let's go kick some third order win percentage butt!

    Edited by LaBombo

    As for run differential, it looks like its predictive value at any given point in a season depends on who you believe.

    Raw run differential seems like a noisy data set to draw conclusions from.

     

    Anecdotally, our manager has thrown his few good bullpen assets into the games that look winnable, and let the rest of the relievers try to establish themselves during garbage time. This has had the effect of turning 6-2 deficits into 11-4 losses, which hurts run differential but not the standings.

     

    A team like ours with one or two reliable starters and two or three reliable relievers might be the outlier for analysis by differential.

     

    Granted, such run differential does indeed indicate the talent level of the entire roster as it stands (minus the dregs who have already been discarded), but might not provide guidance or may even mask how much good it would do to eliminate a couple of low performers. We're still on the low part of the S-shaped curve of wins versus talent.

     

    I'm all for moving Dozier, Santana, Kintzler for the right deal.  But, is Dozier even tradable at this point? I'm qualifying "tradable" as where the projected value coming in would potentially exceed Dozier's value to the Twins over the next two years (and/or the chance that he has a crazy second half and can be moved over the off-season for a better package). 

     

    So, serious question.  If Dozier for De Leon straight up (or pretty much straight up) wasn't enough, is there a team out there that is a 2nd baseman away from the playoffs who will give up more than De Leon?  I don't think I'd trade him for less than a top 100 prospect plus taking a flyer on at least one intriguing player (someone like a Lewin Diaz or a Jermaine Palacios in the Twins system).  Is there a team out there who would offer that right now?  

    Edited by olivia11

     

    I'm all for moving Dozier, Santana, Kintzler for the right deal.  But, is Dozier even tradable at this point? I'm qualifying "tradable" as where the projected value coming in would potentially exceed Dozier's value to the Twins over the next two years (and/or the chance that he has a crazy second half and can be moved over the off-season for a better package). 

     

    So, serious question.  If Dozier for De Leon straight up (or pretty much straight up) wasn't enough, is there a team out there that is a 2nd baseman away from the playoffs who will give up more than De Leon?  I don't think I'd trade him for less than a top 100 prospect plus taking a flyer on at least one intriguing player (someone like a Lewin Diaz or a Jermaine Palacios in the Twins system).  Is there a team out there who would offer that right now?  

     

    The short answer, no. 

    The long answer, no. Dozier had a career year last year and only the Dodgers were interested in potentially trading for him. There hasn't been any significant injuries to 2B across baseball, and Dozier's numbers have predictably fallen back to Earth. Honestly I think the Twins are stuck with him until his contract runs out. Or they decide to trade him for a lesser prospect during the last year of his contract. 

    The short answer, no.

     

    The long answer, no. Dozier had a career year last year and only the Dodgers were interested in potentially trading for him. There hasn't been any significant injuries to 2B across baseball, and Dozier's numbers have predictably fallen back to Earth. Honestly I think the Twins are stuck with him until his contract runs out. Or they decide to trade him for a lesser prospect during the last year of his contract.

    I would have done the deal straight up for DeLeon.

    Said that at the time too, so that's not in retrospect of Dozier crashing back to earth.

    Dozier weighs in:

     

    http://www.startribune.com/should-twins-buy-or-sell-answer-is-clear-to-players/435092943/#1

     

    I agree.  It's the right thing to do on it's own merits, plus there is no guarantee some better time to add will magically materialize in the future.

     

     

     

    Dozier weighs in:

     

    http://www.startribune.com/should-twins-buy-or-sell-answer-is-clear-to-players/435092943/#1

     

    I agree.  It's the right thing to do on it's own merits, plus there is no guarantee some better time to add will magically materialize in the future.

     

    Concur 100%. I don't know how Falvey and Levine could walk down to the clubhouse if they decide to sell off players for the future while this team is competitive. It would send a horrible message to the young players, coaching staff, and fans. 

     

    Dozier weighs in:

     

    http://www.startribune.com/should-twins-buy-or-sell-answer-is-clear-to-players/435092943/#1

     

    I agree.  It's the right thing to do on it's own merits, plus there is no guarantee some better time to add will magically materialize in the future.

     

    Has any player publicly said "we need to rebuild", ever? Are players the best judges of how to run a team? I mean, I get it, and I sympathize......but I trust the FO a bit more than a player on this topic. Heck, I probably trust a decent number of fans more than a player on this particular topic.

     

    do people really think this team has a chance to "do something special"? 

     

    To me, they'd need to add:

    1 SP as good as Santana or better

    2 RP as good as Rogers or whomever you want to call "really, really, really good"

    a DH

    a SS that can hit (whether that is Polanco or Escobar producing, or getting one)

     

    then, maybe, you can really believe. But, that's a tall order. And, it might not work still. How much are you willing to pay to do this, given that there are this many questions, and questions about Mejia and Berrios and Santana being good or not (and Dozier and Santana being gone in 1-2 years)?

     

    That's why Falvine make so much money.....hard questions.

     

    Has any player publicly said "we need to rebuild", ever? Are players the best judges of how to run a team? I mean, I get it, and I sympathize......but I trust the FO a bit more than a player on this topic. Heck, I probably trust a decent number of fans more than a player on this particular topic.

     

    do people really think this team has a chance to "do something special"? 

     

    To me, they'd need to add:

    1 SP as good as Santana or better

    2 RP as good as Rogers or whomever you want to call "really, really, really good"

    a DH

    a SS that can hit (whether that is Polanco or Escobar producing, or getting one)

     

    then, maybe, you can really believe. But, that's a tall order. And, it might not work still. How much are you willing to pay to do this, given that there are this many questions, and questions about Mejia and Berrios and Santana being good or not (and Dozier and Santana being gone in 1-2 years)?

     

    That's why Falvine make so much money.....hard questions.

    I don't agree it's a hard question.  

     

    In fact, it's easy.  They're in contention, for both the division and the WC.  The season is half over.  Cleveland isn't some juggernaut (or at least hasn't played like one), and there aren't several strong teams that need to be beaten for the WC.  

     

    Find some help.  Now.  

     

    I don't agree it's a hard question.  

     

    In fact, it's easy.  They're in contention, for both the division and the WC.  The season is half over.  Cleveland isn't some juggernaut (or at least hasn't played like one), and there aren't several strong teams that need to be beaten for the WC.  

     

    Find some help.  Now.  

     

    There's a handful of guys you wouldn't want to trade for a rental, but other than that, I'm on board with this.

     

    I don't agree it's a hard question.  

     

    In fact, it's easy.  They're in contention, for both the division and the WC.  The season is half over.  Cleveland isn't some juggernaut (or at least hasn't played like one), and there aren't several strong teams that need to be beaten for the WC.  

     

    Find some help.  Now.  

     

    "find some help" meaning what? How much? At what price?

     

    Sure, trade off prospects the FO doesn't believe in. NP. Start trading off legit pieces for the small chance you "do something special"? Um, that's different.

    At this point, especially with RP, the team's needing 20-25 good innings from them in the regular season. Hopefully Falvey finds a diamond in the rough and trades a non-essential prospect to acquire them.

     

    Dave Cameron on Fangraphs suggests some guy named Danny Barnes from the Blue Jays as a sneaky trade piece.  

     

    As far as a SP, ideally a controllable pitcher beyond this year. But, if they can trade a prospect they don't believe in for a rental, maybe that could help too. 

     

      ...there aren't several strong teams that need to be beaten for the WC.   

    I (and, I suspect, many others) have a different definition of strong than you do. I rate the Astros, Dodgers and Nats all very strong with Arizona, Colorado and Boston close behind. I think six out of thirty is more than several.

    Edited by spinowner

     

    I (and, I suspect, many others) have a different definition of strong than you do. I rate the Astros, Dodgers and Nats all very strong with Arizona, Colorado and Boston close behind. I think six out of thirty is more than several.

    "WC" = Wild Card.

     

    Dodgers, Nats, AZ, and Colorado are N/A.  I don't expect the Astros or Red Sox to be WC competition.

     

    to be more clear...there aren't several strong AL teams that will need to be beaten to grab one of the two WC spots.

     

     

     

    I (and, I suspect, many others) have a different definition of strong than you do. I rate the Astros, Dodgers and Nats all very strong with Arizona, Colorado and Boston close behind. I think six out of thirty is more than several.

     

    You named 2 AL teams, and only the Astros are clear division winners. Chief was talking about the AL Wildcard, which currently has 5-6 teams around .500 competing for 2 spots. 




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