Most over-rated player in the last 30 years to retire after 2014 season

[Monkeypaws]

He was kind of a throwback player to me - one position, one team, outstanding career.

 

I got sick to death of the Yankees in the post-season all those years, and by association Jeter as well, but they did have a nice core of home grown guys that played their whole careers there, Williams, Posada, Rivera, Jeter.

 

End of the day, it's hard to hate on guys of that caliber.

[TheLeviathan]

Paul Molitor has almost identical stats accross the board, average, hits, HR, games, OPS, etc. Molitor has an additional 156 SB. Molitor achieved only 85% of the vote on his first ballot.

 

In fairness, Jeter played a more valuable defensive position to get those results since Molitor moved from 2B fairly early in his career.

 

You're spot on about the rest. He's basically being given MLB Mt. Rushmore status and it isn't deserved. It's not that he wasn't a great player, it's that where he ranks among the greats has been vastly overstated. Especially when you look at him basically being a clone of Craig Biggio in all the stats, but getting exponentially more love/respect/adoration publicly.

[Ozziedavisfan]

being your denagrating one of my two favorite players the other one is the clearly overrated wille mays. I should say that it is not Jeter's fault that he played in new york and that is cool to dislike the yankees. Do find it funny that on spirts list that Ozzie Smith's defence is rated higher that Jeter's offence. Second greatest shortstop of all time behind Luis Aparisco

[Craig Arko]

I thought Mark DeRosa was already retired...

[Brock Beauchamp]

I too believe Jeter is both a first ballot HOF and overrated. It sounds odd, but allow me to explain.

 

I don' think that's odd at all. Jeter was a fantastic player, probably the best of his generation at the position if you exclude A-Rod, whose non-steroid performances are still up for debate.

 

But he's the best of his generation, not the best to ever play the position... Which is where the "overrated" part comes in.

[mini_tb]

I think the Yankees' huge market, love/hate popularity, Jeter's own market saturation, and Fox's baseball coverage can be blamed most of the Jeter animosity (apologies if that isn't the right word). The cameras pan to him to see his reaction to seemingly every play over the course of the game. Joe Buck and Tim McCarver have praised and/or fantasized about him on air so much over the years that it's absolutely nauseating.

 

In fact, I am still annoyed by it, but I simply cannot blame the player. I think a lot of people have a hard time separating the unasked for media attention from the player, and I really can understand where they are coming from.

 

Hold no animosity toward the great player - just the media and their portrayal.

[DaveW]

I forgot about Banks, yeah I would rank him over Jeter as well. Frankly, Jeter should have moved to 3rd base the second A-Rod was brought in. We can argue about roids all day long, but the fact is, A-Rod in his long prime is one of the best 10 players to ever play the game (And that is underating him a bit in my eyes), especially when you consider he was a pretty damn good SS as well. Ditto with Bonds, during that time I would imagine 33% of the league were on Roids, so personally, when we are talking all time great talents you HAVE to put A-Rod near the top.

 

The Biggio and Larkin comparisons nail it on the head, if Jeter is a sure fire first ballot HOF (I bet he gets 95%) it is absolutely ludicrous that Biggio and Larkin failed to get 75% on their first chance.

 

I think Jeter's hitting is a bit over-rated as well, he was surrounded by insane bats up and down that lineup, where Biggio, Ripken and Larkin never had that. FWIW Eloratings on baseball reference have Biggio at #56 all time, Larkin at #58 all time. Jeter is #113 all time.

[DaveW]

being your denagrating one of my two favorite players the other one is the clearly overrated wille mays. I should say that it is not Jeter's fault that he played in new york and that is cool to dislike the yankees. Do find it funny that on spirts list that Ozzie Smith's defence is rated higher that Jeter's offence. Second greatest shortstop of all time behind Luis Aparisco

 

Willie Mays is one of the best five players to ever play the game, Jeter is not (though half the people in this city will tell you up and down he is the best yankee to play the game and one of the best 10 in baseball history)

[DaveW]

 

Jeter will get 95% on his first ballot HOF vote... guaranteed.

 

Using hall of fame voters to support your argument actually hurts it I believe, if we have learned anything over the years, there are a lot of really ignorant and dumb hall of fame voters (See: Biggio not getting in first ballot, Bagwell not getting in, Edgar Martinez not even sniffing the line, Bonds being shut out, Clemens being shut out etc)

 

Biggio and Jeter are actually pretty similar players IMO. Overall I think he is a better hitter, and in his 15 year prime I think he was significantly better due to ballpark/supporting cast. Defensively, I like Biggio more, I think Jeter gets points for being SS (instead of 2B) but Biggio was pretty verstatile as well (playing catcher and CF as well)

 

To say that anyone who thinks Biggio is better then Jeter "has never watched them play the game" I think is a bit inflammatory. I think a valid argument could be made (and has been made) for either Jeter or Biggio

[nicksaviking]

Willie Mays is one of the best five players to ever play the game, Jeter is not (though half the people in this city will tell you up and down he is the best yankee to play the game and one of the best 10 in baseball history)

 

Which city?! Perhaps it's just because I haven't watched SportsCenter in about five years but I have a hard time believing people are saying Jeter is better than Ruth, Gerhig or Mantle unless you're polling teenage girls.

[thetank]

Using hall of fame voters to support your argument actually hurts it I believe, if we have learned anything over the years, there are a lot of really ignorant and dumb hall of fame voters (See: Biggio not getting in first ballot, Bagwell not getting in, Edgar Martinez not even sniffing the line, Bonds being shut out, Clemens being shut out etc)

 

Biggio and Jeter are actually pretty similar players IMO. Overall I think he is a better hitter, and in his 15 year prime I think he was significantly better due to ballpark/supporting cast. Defensively, I like Biggio more, I think Jeter gets points for being SS (instead of 2B) but Biggio was pretty verstatile as well (playing catcher and CF as well)

 

To say that anyone who thinks Biggio is better then Jeter "has never watched them play the game" I think is a bit inflammatory. I think a valid argument could be made (and has been made) for either Jeter or Biggio

 

Distinction without a difference to me. The overexposure lead him to be overrated.

 

I really don't care for the suggestion that seeing them play leaves no doubt. I saw Jeter and Biggio both play. They were extremely similar players, just one better with the bat and one significantly better with the glove. The stats back that up.

 

Their quality of play isn't the difference. Their market and supporting talent were.

Biggio has very good numbers after the age of 35 raising eyebrows about steroids especially doubles. Jester hadn't inured his ankle we would be talking 3700 lifetime hits instead of the 3300 he has now.

[DaveW]

It's inflammatory and wrong to insinuate that Biggio did roids, and if you are going to entertain that notion, then perhaps we can entertain the notion that Jeter was on roids/HGH and once he got off he suddenly has injury issues?

[DaveW]

Which city?! Perhaps it's just because I haven't watched SportsCenter in about five years but I have a hard time believing people are saying Jeter is better than Ruth, Gerhig or Mantle unless you're polling teenage girls.

 

I have lived in NYC for about 7 years now, I goto about 15-20 Yankee games a year, trust me, it gets said.

[Ozziedavisfan]

I was kidding about the mays comment. one of the five best definatately. Being that at the moment only 9 people have more hits that he does, I have a hard time believing his offence is over rated. You can't really compare him to AROD being that he was takeing steriods most of his life. Oh and if your so intersted in his defense, why isn't Vizquel on your list.

[DaveW]

I was kidding about the mays comment. one of the five best definatately. Being that at the moment only 9 people have more hits that he does, I have a hard time believing his offence is over rated. You can't really compare him to AROD being that he was takeing steriods most of his life. Oh and if your so intersted in his defense, why isn't Vizquel on your list.

 

I don't think Vizquel is in the Jeter level of SS, however he was a damn fine one and if he got 133 more hits he would be a hall of famer.

[tobi0040]

In fairness, Jeter played a more valuable defensive position to get those results since Molitor moved from 2B fairly early in his career.

 

You're spot on about the rest. He's basically being given MLB Mt. Rushmore status and it isn't deserved. It's not that he wasn't a great player, it's that where he ranks among the greats has been vastly overstated. Especially when you look at him basically being a clone of Craig Biggio in all the stats, but getting exponentially more love/respect/adoration publicly.

 

SS is the most important position. I give you that, but Molitors versatility added value as well. Here are the games by position:

 

3B - 791

2B - 400

1B - 197

SS - 57

LF/RF - 50

CF - 43

 

Pretty insane that he played every position but pitcher and catcher.

[DaveW]

Also one thought I have on his defense. Jeter's numbers already were anywhere from below average to bad when you look at UZR etc, I am thinking those numbers would be even worse if he wasn't surrounded by slick fielders around him (A-Rod at third during his prime, and Cano at 2nd)

 

Yes, SS is the most important position, but he honestly shouldn't have been at SS the second A-Rod got to town.(And maybe even prior)

 

Everyone talks about what team player and "gamer" Jeter is, but they always leave out the part where he refused to move from SS for A-Rod, even though it would have certainly been better "for the team"

 

I'm not saying he didn't have the right to refuse, or even was wrong, but this idea of him being the "ultimate team player" is wrong IMO.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Willie Mays is one of the best five players to ever play the game, Jeter is not (though half the people in this city will tell you up and down he is the best yankee to play the game and one of the best 10 in baseball history)

 

The next person who tells you Jeter was the best Yankee to ever play the game, or even in the top 5 or 10, unless they are the teenage girl, tell them "Uff-da" in reply. I do think that would be overrating him. First ballot HOF though, absolutely. I don't watch the sports shows either so no idea what they are saying.

[DaveW]

The next person who tells you Jeter was the best Yankee to ever play the game, or even in the top 5 or 10, unless they are the teenage girl, tell them "Uff-da" in reply. I do think that would be overrating him. First ballot HOF though, absolutely. I don't watch the sports shows either so no idea what they are saying.

 

I agree with first ballot, but at the same time it points out the huge flaw that Biggio and Larkin (extremely similar players) didn't get first ballot.

[luckylager]

A great player, yes; but can we please skip the farewell ceremony at Target Field (and every other MLB Park except Yankee Stadium)?

[TheLeviathan]

Biggio has very good numbers after the age of 35 raising eyebrows about steroids especially doubles. Jester hadn't inured his ankle we would be talking 3700 lifetime hits instead of the 3300 he has now.

 

What-ifs and maybes seem like a poor basis for an argument.

 

The facts are that in terms of production - they were effectively equal players. Jeter was worth less than a half a win more per year than Biggio through his career. One player is lauded as the King of all Shortstops and the other guy is going to go on his third time to get in the Hall.

 

Does. Not. Compute.

[JB_Iowa]

My biggest problem with all this is people like Morosi who call him the "Face of Baseball": http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/yanks-aren-t-only-ones-who-will-have-hard-time-replacing-jeter-021214

 

Unfortunately, Rodriguez was probably more of the "face of baseball" than Jeter (okay, that makes me want to throw up). Definitely Cal Ripken was.

 

And but for the move to the West Coast, I would have definitely said Pujols in the last decade or so. And as Pujols has declined, Miggy.

 

Jeter was the "face of baseball" to someone like Morosi because for many sportswriters, the Yankees are the "team of baseball" and Jeter was the "captain".

 

But, over the last twenty years, if you had asked me at any given time to name the "face of baseball", I probably would have given a number of different answers depending on the year. I'm not sure that I ever would have named Jeter.

[tobi0040]

 

That is telling, and factually he has never won an MVP award in 19 seasons. He has finished top 5 only three times. Reasons mentioned probably helped him (new york, playing with good players, etc.).

 

That is why his HOF candidacy has a lot to do with longevity. He played 19 seasons and the equivalent of another full season in the playoffs. The average is impressive over this span, but the HR, RBI, OBP, SB numbers on a yearly basis put Jeter way behind the games all time greats. All time 40 players, etc. He will be remembered as a top 40 player, probably a top 20 player by some.

[one_eyed_jack]

A couple of things:

 

1) I was not trying to start a debate on the relative merits of Jeter and Biggio. I was merely wondering whether the voters responsible for denying Biggio HOF entry due to PED suspicions based on the guilt-by-association rationale would treat Jeter the same way. Just like Biggio, Jeter played with multiple guys who either admitted using or tested positive for PED's. To me, if they're going to be consistent, they should refuse to vote for Jeter as well, but I suspect they won't be.

 

2) IMO, there is a difference between 'overrated' and 'overexposed'.

 

Overrated = Guys who are not that great, but talked about as though they are great

Overexposed = Guys who are truly great, but whose greatness is discussed ad nauseum

 

Yes, we hear about Jeter's greatness far more often than necessary, far more than we would have had he had the same career in a smaller market. But to me, that doesn't diminish his greatness.

[Thrylos]

His defense wasn't up to snuff the majority of those years, he never should have been SS the minute the Yankees got a superior on in A-Rod.

 

Top SS of all time IMO:

1. Honus Wagner

2. A-Rod (roids aside)

3. George Davis

4. Cal Ripken

5. Barry Larkin (Very good defender, nearly identical offensive numbers OPS+)

6. Ozzie Smith

7. Luke Appling

8. Derek Jeter

9. Lou Boudreau (Better player then Jeter, just had a shorter career)

 

It's amazing how Jeter gets over-rated and called one of the best to play the game by idiots, yet Barry Larkin doesn't even get on the first ballot when he was clearly a superior overall player.

 

Hold it for a sec. You have him listed as the 8th top rated SS of "all time" and you think that he is overrated?

 

Am I missing something here?

[DaveW]

Hold it for a sec. You have him listed as the 8th top rated SS of "all time" and you think that he is overrated?

 

Am I missing something here?

 

Have you read the thread? The point is there will be a very large number of the media/fans who will claim he is the best SS of all time.

[tobi0040]

I don't know that Biggio has ever been linked to steriods. He is a guy that should have made it by now though, but I think he was hurt most by the packed ballot. He missed by two votes last year, one weirdo voted only for Jack Morris. Multiple voters said that the 10 vote rule left guys off. So this is really a personality/voting issue than anything else. The numbers are there:

 

3,060 hits, 291 HR, .796 OPS, 414 SB, 668 2B. By any measure one of the best hitting 2B of all time.

[Kwak]

Most overrated in the last 30 years? Sammy Sosa, not Jeter.

[tobi0040]

Most under-rated? Vlad Guerrero would be my pick.

[DaveW]

Most under-rated? Vlad Guerrero would be my pick.

 

Craig Biggio, Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker for me.