Article on Terry Ryan

[The Wise One]

There seems to be an unusual obsession on Theo Epstein around here. He is not the gm of the cubs. Why his words keep getting compared to Ryan's is baffling. In any event, whatever the cubs are doing is whatever they are doing. Nothing at all to do with the twins.

 

IIRC there was a ton of praise thrown Epstien's way about his use of Sabermetrics, signing a lot of international players, signing and trading free agents, and in general calling him everything great and Terry Ryan is not this season. There will be comparisons to how different approaches work over the same period of time. Epstien in his role would appear to have a lot more oversight and direction to his GM so it is easy to forget there is a GM in Chicago. Epstien's role looks from the outside to be similar to Ryan's.

 

So if whatever the Cubs are doing has nothing to do with the Twins, your complaint is long overdue.

 

Whatever Epstien has directed has not produced results any better than what Ryan has produced and thus takes away an avenue to criticize Ryan. I would suspect a few people are not happy about that. I would also think that a few people after the past in season lovefest for all things Cubs are happy to point out said failures as an "excuse" for the Twins not doing similar to what the Cubs are doing.

[drivlikejehu]

The Twins #1 problem is their failure to develop their own players. That's also the most important aspect of any potential rebuild. But free agency gets at a more fundamental issue, which is the committment to putting the best team on the field. Coming in way under 'budget', refusing to change with the times, an often-troubling approach to injured players, and other issues all go back to the core values of the organization.

 

The Twins are not very far from being a more PR-savvy Marlins at this point. Of course they would love to turn things around on the cheap - who wouldn't? Twins fans just deserve better than the half-hearted turnaround effort going on right now.

[Guest USAFChief]

No, if you would signed the free agents mention, you would have spent your entire budget and would have to hope for improvement from within.

 

 

I think the job is getting production per dollar spent

 

 

Re point 1 above: How is that different than not spending money and hoping solely for improvement from within?

 

Re point 2: I think the job is production...i.e. wins. Actual wins, on the baseball field. I have little interest in winning the Fangraphs "wins/dollar spent" prize.

[Thrylos]

the fact of the matter is you can not rebuild a mid-market Major League baseball team in 23 months.

 

The Baltimore Orioles (2011-2012), Cleveland Indians (2012-2013), Pittsburgh Pirates (2011-2013), Boston Red Sox (2012-2013; ok they are not mid-market), Detroit Tigers (2005-2006) will disagree.

 

Lots and lots of examples of rebuilding in a season or two, but they all required drastic change of FO and field management personnel. If you don't do that, you cannot rebuild in 1-2 years. That simple.

[The Wise One]

The Baltimore Orioles (2011-2012), Cleveland Indians (2012-2013), Pittsburgh Pirates (2011-2013), Boston Red Sox (2012-2013; ok they are not mid-market), Detroit Tigers (2005-2006) will disagree.

 

Lots and lots of examples of rebuilding in a season or two, but they all required drastic change of FO and field management personnel. If you don't do that, you cannot rebuild in 1-2 years. That simple.

Detroit had 19 years between playoffs, Cleveland 5 years, Baltimore 14 years. That is how long it took them to rebuild. How much of Boston losing can be pinned on bad manager?

[ThePuck]

IIRC there was a ton of praise thrown Epstien's way about his use of Sabermetrics, signing a lot of international players, signing and trading free agents, and in general calling him everything great and Terry Ryan is not this season. There will be comparisons to how different approaches work over the same period of time. Epstien in his role would appear to have a lot more oversight and direction to his GM so it is easy to forget there is a GM in Chicago. Epstien's role looks from the outside to be similar to Ryan's.

 

So if whatever the Cubs are doing has nothing to do with the Twins, your complaint is long overdue.

 

Whatever Epstien has directed has not produced results any better than what Ryan has produced and thus takes away an avenue to criticize Ryan. I would suspect a few people are not happy about that. I would also think that a few people after the past in season lovefest for all things Cubs are happy to point out said failures as an "excuse" for the Twins not doing similar to what the Cubs are doing.

 

Epstein and his management team hadn't worked for the Cubs before being hired in 2011 like Ryan had and, therefore, didn't contribute to the problems he inherited when he took over like Ryan had. They are a different market, and a different league...and, of course, the aforementioned fact he isn't even the GM.

 

It's my recollection that while some did like some of the approaches the Cubs have instituted, that focus was more on their aggressiveness in the international market this year, with some love for getting FAs that could be used as assets later on. Seems to be more love around here for the way the As, Cards and Rays do things than for the way the Cubs do thing, as a whole.

[Major League Ready]

Re point 1 above: How is that different than not spending money and hoping solely for improvement from within?

 

Re point 2: I think the job is production...i.e. wins. Actual wins, on the baseball field. I have little interest in winning the Fangraphs "wins/dollar spent" prize.

 

I have never suggested and I don't think anyone else has suggested they not spend. In the context of the keys to building a consistent winner on a mid-market budget, free agent spending is not all that important in relative terms. We should all be far more focused on what went wrong in drafting and development. I am far more concerned with what they have done to improve scouting, drafting and development personnel as well as the processes associated with these functions.

[Alex]

Detroit had 19 years between playoffs, Cleveland 5 years, Baltimore 14 years. That is how long it took them to rebuild. How much of Boston losing can be pinned on bad manager?

 

Those aren't rebuilds. Those are terribly run organizations for extended periods of time.

 

I'd point to the Cardinals, Athletics, and Giants, all of whom are comparable to or worse off than the Twins. They've managed to rebuild without bottoming out for multiple years over the last 20.

 

As for Boston, whether or not you want to blame it on the manager, that's something the Twins haven't changed.

[gunnarthor]

Those aren't rebuilds. Those are terribly run organizations for extended periods of time.

 

I'd point to the Cardinals, Athletics, and Giants, all of whom are comparable to or worse off than the Twins. They've managed to rebuild without bottoming out for multiple years over the last 20.

 

As for Boston, whether or not you want to blame it on the manager, that's something the Twins haven't changed.

 

Not really sure how comparable the Giants and Cards are. They had huge financial advantages over the Twins in that period of time. Only really in the last few seasons have the Twins been at a similar (although generally smaller) levels.

 

Twins and A's have both managed 9 seasons above .500 in the last 20 years. Twins finished dead last 4x, Oakland 5x. I guess you can say Oakland's worst seasons weren't as bad, record-wise, as the Twins.

[The Wise One]

Epstein and his management team hadn't worked for the Cubs before being hired in 2011 like Ryan had and, therefore, didn't contribute to the problems he inherited when he took over like Ryan had. They are a different market, and a different league...and, of course, the aforementioned fact he isn't even the GM.

 

It's my recollection that while some did like some of the approaches the Cubs have instituted, that focus was more on their aggressiveness in the international market this year, with some love for getting FAs that could be used as assets later on. Seems to be more love around here for the way the As, Cards and Rays do things than for the way the Cubs do thing, as a whole.

 

What the A's, Cards and Rays have done shows that you can't rebuild in a short period of time. They also show that to get premier talent you have to trade premier talent. Building in that manner does not happen quickly. A couple of bad trades of the premier talent will set you way back. That is something these teams have not done.

What was the last international free agent of the 16 year old variety Epstien signed that made it to the big leagues? Last trade his organization made that brought success was 2008?

[TheLeviathan]

What the A's, Cards and Rays have done shows that you can't rebuild in a short period of time. They also show that to get premier talent you have to trade premier talent. Building in that manner does not happen quickly. A couple of bad trades of the premier talent will set you way back. That is something these teams have not done.

What was the last international free agent of the 16 year old variety Epstien signed that made it to the big leagues? Last trade his organization made that brought success was 2008?

 

Epstein and Ryan aren't comparable. Ryan is taking back over a mess he has a large hand in creating. Epstein was taking over for a previous regime that made awful decisions. Epstein also had virtually nothing to build around whereas Ryan had Mauer, Sano, Kepler, Rosario, and others already on his team when he started a second time. We'll see if Epstein can build the Cubs back up from the husk that he inherited. But Ryan had a much more favorable position coming in, the comparisons aren't fair you're using.

 

As for Ryan himself, it is a problem that Ryan is afraid to make big trades like the ones you mention. He's resistant to dealing premier talent and resistant to dealing for it. I'd argue that one of the reasons he doesn't make a lot of mistakes is he doesn't take any risks.

 

The question you have to ask is - if other GMs can take risks and avoid major mistakes - does Ryan not do it because he's not as competent as those GMs at avoiding mistakes? Ryan gets a lot of credit for not making back-breaking decisions, but one could argue he only avoids those because he's little more than an average GM whose aware of it and avoids exposing it. In my opinion, it's ok to expect successful risk-taking from a "good" GM. We should demand that of Ryan as well.

[ThePuck]

What the A's, Cards and Rays have done shows that you can't rebuild in a short period of time. They also show that to get premier talent you have to trade premier talent. Building in that manner does not happen quickly. A couple of bad trades of the premier talent will set you way back. That is something these teams have not done.

What was the last international free agent of the 16 year old variety Epstien signed that made it to the big leagues? Last trade his organization made that brought success was 2008?

 

Your point, whatever that is, is all over the place. Going to try and figure it out here. What does Epstein's previous success (or lack thereof) in the international FA market have to do with what the Cubs GM (not Epstein) is doing now? The aggressiveness is what is being lauded, the aggressiveness. We have no idea how successful this year's aggressiveness in the international FA market by the Cubs will turn out for another 5 years or so. Or do you?

 

As far as the moves being made by HOYER, what does that have to do with what Epstein did in Boston when he put final pieces in place for a W Series Championship and later a 2nd W Series Championship a few years later?

 

Again, you argument is all over the place...your point vague. I think you're trying to do an I told you so to someone that you believe you have a case for, but barring that I still don't know why some continue to compare. There is no comparison. There certainly is no comparison when talking about success as a GM between Epstein and Ryan...but now they don't even have the same position. Need to start comparing HOYER to RYAN.

[The Wise One]

Those aren't rebuilds. Those are terribly run organizations for extended periods of time.

 

I'd point to the Cardinals, Athletics, and Giants, all of whom are comparable to or worse off than the Twins. They've managed to rebuild without bottoming out for multiple years over the last 20.

 

As for Boston, whether or not you want to blame it on the manager, that's something the Twins haven't changed.

 

The claim was you can't rebuild from where the Twins are at in 23 months. Thyrlos claimed they rebuilt in 23 months. I simply stated how he was wrong. While the teams you mentioned did rebuild and had not fallen as far as the Twins have at any point, that really is of little consequence at this point. Even now as the Giants need to rebuild again they have 4 things the Twins do not. A RF, 1B, and Ace with a #2 starter. Ryan is the general manager, Smith was. What was done was done. Going forward Ryan is the GM. Either he and his team rebuild the Twins or they don't. From the point he took back over the team the cupboard was pretty bare. Some things he is going to have to change from how he did it before. He is going to have to spend more. The whole process is going to take time. Ryan is going to have to learn how to judge the free agent market better. He is loathe to sign free agents that are marginally better than the players he has. If he wants the Twins to be near .500 that will have to change. I doubt the fans will come out strong for that kind of team but others posting seem to want that. My impression is Pohlad wants a team that will sell out Target Field and make him money. That is going to be difficult to do for next year. A lot will depend on the market for players in the mid tier range. Ryan has got to find a few that fall between the cracks like Cleveland did for short term success. Ryan doesn't usually work that way, but that too will have to change. Ryan will be the GM and Gardenhire the coach for the next 2 years. If there is no success beyond what the prospects bring, they will be gone after that.

[The Wise One]

Epstein and Ryan aren't comparable. Ryan is taking back over a mess he has a large hand in creating. Epstein was taking over for a previous regime that made awful decisions. Epstein also had virtually nothing to build around whereas Ryan had Mauer, Sano, Kepler, Rosario, and others already on his team when he started a second time. We'll see if Epstein can build the Cubs back up from the husk that he inherited. But Ryan had a much more favorable position coming in, the comparisons aren't fair you're using.

 

As for Ryan himself, it is a problem that Ryan is afraid to make big trades like the ones you mention. He's resistant to dealing premier talent and resistant to dealing for it. I'd argue that one of the reasons he doesn't make a lot of mistakes is he doesn't take any risks.

 

The question you have to ask is - if other GMs can take risks and avoid major mistakes - does Ryan not do it because he's not as competent as those GMs at avoiding mistakes? Ryan gets a lot of credit for not making back-breaking decisions, but one could argue he only avoids those because he's little more than an average GM whose aware of it and avoids exposing it. In my opinion, it's ok to expect successful risk-taking from a "good" GM. We should demand that of Ryan as well.

 

Garza, Rizzo, Soto, Santana, Samardzija, Dempster, Wood were all such poor players. You are right. Epstien had nothing when he took over the Cubs. Funny you can only mention one player on the major league roster over the last 2 years as an asset and no others playing above A ball when he took back over. Ryan got lucky that Blanton and Saunders did not want to play here. How many others rejected overtures. And no, I don't have any idea who he asked either. He took a risk that Willingham would stay healthy. He took a risk that Doumit could maintain an .800 OPS. He took a risk that Pelfrey would come back quickly from major surgery. How do you know he did not negotiate with any other players?

Resisting dealing premier talent? What premier talent? Mauer has a no trade clause. Span and Revere are good players no longer in a Twins uniform. Did he have any premier talent in A+or above last winter? Hicks.The other centerfielders were traded, couldn't deal Hicks. Who should have he dealt the last 2 years? Premier talent. Willingham? The winter before he was bargain basement. You think somebody would give up premier talent back for 1 good year? After Revere and Span there was nothing left to deal.

[Major League Ready]

Not really sure how comparable the Giants and Cards are. They had huge financial advantages over the Twins in that period of time. Only really in the last few seasons have the Twins been at a similar (although generally smaller) levels.

 

Twins and A's have both managed 9 seasons above .500 in the last 20 years. Twins finished dead last 4x, Oakland 5x. I guess you can say Oakland's worst seasons weren't as bad, record-wise, as the Twins.

 

I am glad you pointed out that it is a common occurence here to site the Twins spending habits pre-Target Field in arguing a current point, whatever it might be. It will take a few years and the completion of the rebuilding process before we can determine if the FO is willing to spend the additional revenue. Everyone seems to have forgotten the first thing they did with their increased revenue was sign Mauer to a 184M dollar contract. And, I thought that a lower payroll was considered a normal product of rebuiling given a rebuilding team is going to have more players in pre-arbitration years.

 

I wonder if the Houston fans expect them to go out a drop $70M in free agency so that they are at their max budget?

[Alex]

Not really sure how comparable the Giants and Cards are. They had huge financial advantages over the Twins in that period of time. Only really in the last few seasons have the Twins been at a similar (although generally smaller) levels.

 

Twins and A's have both managed 9 seasons above .500 in the last 20 years. Twins finished dead last 4x, Oakland 5x. I guess you can say Oakland's worst seasons weren't as bad, record-wise, as the Twins.

 

Seems that several people miss the point of this comparison. I'm comparing the Twins and their situation in last three/four years to those teams. I'm not using the Twins previous years because they aren't relevant, especially to the Giants and Cardinals (the A's have been in a worse situation than the twins current one for a long time). I'd argue that's reasonable.

 

The point is this: The Twins' current situation is comparable to those three teams (or better in the case of the As) financially. In the last 20 years, you'd think they'd have gone through something similar, but they haven't, so to argue these awful two or three seasons HAD to be part of the normal rebuilding for a mid-market team is just plain false. And while we're using .500 as the bench mark, these teams found ways to avoid being completely awful even in losing seasons. I really don't get how this is debatable.

[The Wise One]

Your point, whatever that is, is all over the place. Going to try and figure it out here. What does Epstein's previous success (or lack thereof) in the international FA market have to do with what the Cubs GM (not Epstein) is doing now? The aggressiveness is what is being lauded, the aggressiveness. We have no idea how successful this year's aggressiveness in the international FA market by the Cubs will turn out for another 5 years or so. Or do you?

 

As far as the moves being made by HOYER, what does that have to do with what Epstein did in Boston when he put final pieces in place for a W Series Championship and later a 2nd W Series Championship a few years later?

 

Again, you argument is all over the place...your point vague. I think you're trying to do an I told you so to someone that you believe you have a case for, but barring that I still don't know why some continue to compare. There is no comparison. There certainly is no comparison when talking about success as a GM between Epstein and Ryan...but now they don't even have the same position. Need to start comparing HOYER to RYAN.

 

Ever find a quote about what Hoyer thinks on how the Cubs should run? Easy to find quotes about what Epstien thinks.

You said how they brought in all of these international free agents as a sign of doing good work. Excuse for asking how the results of his past work turned out. He signed a lot of players. Woo hoo. How good was his past work? Ryan's past work appears to be game for criticism, but not what Epstien has done?

You said how great the trades were by the Cubs. Did it improve their team dramatically in the last two years? When was the last time an organaization with Epstien made a great trade 08?

It really isn't a comparison of individuals but organizations. By placing names of people rather than organization it does give you a way to obscure the argument.

[The Wise One]

Seems that several people miss the point of this comparison. I'm comparing the Twins and their situation in last three/four years to those teams. I'm not using the Twins previous years because they aren't relevant, especially to the Giants and Cardinals (the A's have been in a worse situation than the twins current one for a long time). I'd argue that's reasonable.

 

The point is this: The Twins' current situation is comparable to those three teams (or better in the case of the As) financially. In the last 20 years, you'd think they'd have gone through something similar, but they haven't, so to argue these awful two or three seasons HAD to be part of the normal rebuilding for a mid-market team is just plain false. And while we're using .500 as the bench mark, these teams found ways to avoid being completely awful even in losing seasons. I really don't get how this is debatable.

 

Yes the current team resources could be compared to the Giants. Some of the issues that led to the current state can be tied to the time less than 5 years ago when they were not on an equall footing.

[North Dakota Twins Fan]

I am still a believer in Terry Ryan. I agree with the "Saving our chips" and I think that is what we are doing. I think this team will have a higher payroll next year. Ryan as said before "This organization needs pitchers" and I agree.

The only thing is when we are making a run in 2015 with Buxton and Sano and company, we need better caliber free agent signings. Signings like Pelfrey and Correa wont cut it and, as we all know, are not even close to what we need.

[TheLeviathan]

Garza, Rizzo, Soto, Santana, Samardzija, Dempster, Wood were all such poor players.

 

Wait....did your list include the husk of Kerry Wood and Geovanny Soto? Yeesh. Ignoring that - Epstein traded for Rizzo and, going even further. Would you trade Sano for all 7 of these players? Because I might not. I certainly wouldn't deal Mauer for them. Ryan had much more to work with. That's not a shot against him, more a shot at how god awful the Cubs were ran for a long time.

 

And no, I don't have any idea who he asked either.

 

Then I'm failing to see the point. None of the players you listed represented a significant risk or a premier player. He's had many in his tenure and has never dealt one. You could argue timing, but we get into this with Ryan a lot: people say "Ryan's just never done that because A, B, C, etc". Well, yeah. He's never done it - so can we stop assuming he will? He's had a helluva long tenure to establish trends. More than most GMs get.

 

Again I ask you to consider - does he avoid risks because he knows they'll fail or because he doesn't know the right ones to take?

[ThePuck]

Ever find a quote about what Hoyer thinks on how the Cubs should run? Easy to find quotes about what Epstien thinks.

You said how they brought in all of these international free agents as a sign of doing good work. Excuse for asking how the results of his past work turned out. He signed a lot of players. Woo hoo. How good was his past work? Ryan's past work appears to be game for criticism, but not what Epstien has done?

You said how great the trades were by the Cubs. Did it improve their team dramatically in the last two years? When was the last time an organaization with Epstien made a great trade 08?

It really isn't a comparison of individuals but organizations. By placing names of people rather than organization it does give you a way to obscure the argument.

 

Wait, I'm obscuring an argument I wasn't even making in the first place? I said that they shouldn't be compared, and now I'm doing something different to obscure the argument? You want me to debate an argument that I not only didn't make, but I made a point of saying shouldn't even be an argument.

 

Well, you're going to continue, so how did Epstein do as a GM? Well, he brought in key pieces to get the supposed cursed Red Sox over the hump to win a W Series while playing in a division with the big bad Yankees (Ortiz, Schilling, Millar and Francona to manage), then he was able to keep to team together and get pieces in place for another W Series championships a few years later. In fact the Boston team now, the one who is favored to go to the W Series, is the team he had a huge part in. Epstein has had more success when it comes right down to why they play...to win it all.

 

AGAIN though, he had a LOT of funds available, and he spent available funds, so, really, there is no comparison.

 

As far as with the Cubs, it doesn't matter if Epstein is the talker, he's not the GM. We hear Magic Johnson talk all the time, the Dodgers GM is pretty quiet, but he's still GM.

[The Wise One]

Wait....did your list include the husk of Kerry Wood and Geovanny Soto? Yeesh. Ignoring that - Epstein traded for Rizzo and, going even further. Would you trade Sano for all 7 of these players? Because I might not. I certainly wouldn't deal Mauer for them. Ryan had much more to work with. That's not a shot against him, more a shot at how god awful the Cubs were ran for a long time.

 

 

 

Then I'm failing to see the point. None of the players you listed represented a significant risk or a premier player. He's had many in his tenure and has never dealt one. You could argue timing, but we get into this with Ryan a lot: people say "Ryan's just never done that because A, B, C, etc". Well, yeah. He's never done it - so can we stop assuming he will? He's had a helluva long tenure to establish trends. More than most GMs get.

 

Again I ask you to consider - does he avoid risks because he knows they'll fail or because he doesn't know the right ones to take?

 

Travis Wood

That you cannot distinguish a difference between revenues when he has teams in the dome and Target Field says it all.

[The Wise One]

Wait, I'm obscuring an argument I wasn't even making in the first place? I said that they shouldn't be compared, and now I'm doing something different to obscure the argument? You want me to debate an argument that I not only didn't make, but I made a point of saying shouldn't even be an argument.

 

Well, you're going to continue, so how did Epstein do as a GM? Well, he brought in key pieces to get the supposed cursed Red Sox over the hump to win a W Series while playing in a division with the big bad Yankees (Ortiz, Schilling, Millar and Francona to manage), then he was able to keep to team together and get pieces in place for another W Series championships a few years later. In fact the Boston team now, the one who is favored to go to the W Series, is the team he had a huge part in. Epstein has had more success when it comes right down to why they play...to win it all.

 

AGAIN though, he had a LOT of funds available, and he spent available funds, so, really, there is no comparison.

 

As far as with the Cubs, it doesn't matter if Epstein is the talker, he's not the GM. We hear Magic Johnson talk all the time, the Dodgers GM is pretty quiet, but he's still GM.

 

You posted, you made it your argument with your take.

Yep, Epstien took a very good club and added a few more pieces and won 2 championships before sagging. . Far different than starting over.

The vision on how to build the Chicago team is Epstien's not the GM. That does not appear to be the case with the Twins. How you chose to see it is your choice

[Guest USAFChief]

Lets make our points without getting personal.

 

thanks.

[TheLeviathan]

Travis Wood

That you cannot distinguish a difference between revenues when he has teams in the dome and Target Field says it all.

 

He traded for Wood too.

 

I recognize the difference, but it doesn't matter if the issue is one of principle and not availability of resources.

[IdahoPilgrim]

I wonder if the Houston fans expect them to go out a drop $70M in free agency so that they are at their max budget?

 

What Houston fans? Do they have any left?

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Overpaid for Kevin Correia? Is TR in for sticker shock if he were to ever seriously bid for a top tier pitcher!

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Re point 2: I think the job is production...i.e. wins. Actual wins, on the baseball field. I have little interest in winning the Fangraphs "wins/dollar spent" prize.

Look at the Yankees, one of the biggest spenders, always high dollars spent/win, spends on free agents, spends on in house talent. They aren't afraid of getting talent and keeping talent, and they win a ton. While I hate the yankees, it's mostly envy.

[twinsfan34]

I have this perception that FAs are generally not a very good value and that they are unlikely to get us over the hump so to speak. Of course, we all know that it is not hard to put together numbers to support whatever you like. For example, we are all aware that there have been many failures with FA SPs but it is not my goal to prove that it can be a gigantic failure. So, let’s save SPs for last. Let’s look at the top position players from the past two years. I was interested to see what they produced in terms of WAR and also their production per dollar spent. In other words, how much salary does it cost to add one WAR in free agency.

 

-----------------Years/Salary - AVE --- War -- $/WAR

 

2013 J. Hamilton- 5 - 123 --- 24.6 --- 1.9 -- 12.9

2013 M. Bourn -- 4 --- 48 --- 12.0 --- 2.0 -- 6.0

2013 N. Swisher- 4 --- 56 --- 14.0 --- 2.4 --- 5.8

2013 BJ Upton--- 5 --- 75 --- 15.0 ---(0.6) -- N/A

2012 A. Pujols-- 10 -- 250 --- 25.0 --- 0.7 --- 35.7

2012 P. Fielder--- 9 -- 214 --- 23.8 --- 2.2 --- 10.8

2012 Jose Reyes- 6 -- 106 --- 17.7 --- 2.2 --- 8.0

2012 A. Ramirez- 3 -- 36 ----- 12.0 --- 1. 4 --- 8.6

TOTAL ....................... 908 ---- 144 ---- 12

AVERAGE ......... 5.8 - 113.5 --- 18.0 --- 1.5

 

11.8 per 1 WAR

 

WAR production for this group was 1.5 wins/player at a cost of 11.8M per WAR.

 

What about FA pitching? I think it is safe to say that had Ryan would have gone wild and signed Greinke and Jackson, many fans would have done back flips of joy. The two of them produce a combined WAR of 4.9 with a combined salary of $37.5/yr. .

 

So, if we spend $60M on free agents and our success is on par with the last two year’s FAs, am I being pessimistic to believe it won’t help much if we spend 50M?

 

 

Free Agency definitely doesn't have a very good return on investment.

 

Finding good talent and drafting it, Michael Wacha, who has "Ace" type stuff for the Cardinals was drafted by the Cardinals #19th in the 1st RD of 2012. He's already in the majors and a stud.

[twinsfan34]

The risks of free agency are well known. But the question remains why a Twins fan should prefer for Pohlad to pocket the money rather than trying to improve the team, even if its just from 66 wins to the low 70s. The point of losing more, on purpose, to further enrich a billionaire just doesn't make sense to me.

 

OR...to get a higher Draft pick.

 

And that can, at times, mean you miss out on a Ken Griffey Jr, Alex Rodriguez, Joe Mauer, Stephen Strasburg, Bryce Harper, et al.

 

It also means if you sign a FA outside of the top protected picks (was top 15, now in 2014 it's a top 10) you would forfeit your 1st RD draft pick, thus sorta 'handcuffing' your future for the present going from 66 wins to 72 wins.

 

So if you sign 'top' end FA's ~ for 2013 that was $13M and up ~ you better be prepared to mortgage your future 1st RD draft pick.