Article: Twins Season Takes Another Dismal Turn

[drjim]

IMO, he did so in order to get people to buy tickets. BTW, I enjoyed the discussion.

 

Both? But I actually agree it was more for local fans than prospective free agents. Ryan can have plenty of private conversations with agents where the actually truth is probably conveyed.

[AROG]

Thanks, I did too, and I agree, selling tickets is a large factor. Also, there may be a psychological aspect to it for the players already on the roster, in terms of getting them to believe they can win so they play harder all year. I can't imagine what it would be like if he had said "we are going to suck again this year but I have a plan that will get this team winning again in the near future, just not this year". Oh, wait, that is what Houston did, well I digress. I don't fault Ryan for saying it, he seems to be only down slightly in attendance, 9% according to ESPN's avg attendance where as Houston is only down 3%. The Twins are down 3,000 in average attendance and the Astros are down 600. Overall I think he did was any general manager of any business would. We aren't the Astros and haven't had their prolonged failure. What do you think?

[ThePuck]

Thanks, I did too, and I agree, selling tickets is a large factor. Also, there may be a psychological aspect to it for the players already on the roster, in terms of getting them to believe they can win so they play harder all year. I can't imagine what it would be like if he had said "we are going to suck again this year but I have a plan that will get this team winning again in the near future, just not this year".

 

I guess it depends on the player. Iguess I'd prefer the honest appraach myself. If he sat down with all the players and said, 'I know it's been rough the last couple of year, but here's my plan to be better as soon as is reasonable' and then broke it down, I think I'd prefer that as opposed to being told, 'Hey guys, we plan on playing games that matter in September. I'm gonna start by doing everything possible to seriously improve the rotation.' and then see the results of what he actually did for the 2013 team.

[amjgt]

This may have been brought up in the last five pages, but I don't have the time right now to read this whole thread...

 

This feels really knee-jerk. I mean, don't get me wrong, the Twins aren't anything special and frankly they are pretty boring to watch, but before the Royals sweep, we had won two games in each of the last four series (8-5)... So, 8-8 over the last 16 when you include the sweep.

 

There's nothing wrong with that.

 

What's with this sudden wave of extreme negativity?

[AROG]

I guess it depends on the player. Iguess I'd prefer the honest appraach myself. If he sat down with all the players and said, 'I know it's been rough the last couple of year, but here's my plan to be better as soon as is reasonable' and then broke it down, I think I'd prefer that as opposed to being told, 'Hey guys, we plan on playing games that matter in September. I'm gonna start by doing everything possible to seriously improve the rotation.' and then see the results of what he actually did for the 2013 team.

 

I do like that approach as the Astros did. It definately helps. If only we had the time machines... On another note, I really hope that Ryan didn't truly believe that this lineup was going to play games that matter in September. If so all of my assumptions about him are wrong..

[ThePuck]

This may have been brought up in the last five pages, but I don't have the time right now to read this whole thread...

 

This feels really knee-jerk. I mean, don't get me wrong, the Twins aren't anything special and frankly they are pretty boring to watch, but before the Royals sweep, we had won two games in each of the last four series (8-5)... So, 8-8 over the last 16 when you include the sweep.

 

There's nothing wrong with that.

 

What's with this sudden wave of extreme negativity?

 

After 105 games played, we have a worst record than we did after 105 games in 2011 when we lost 99 and we have the same record as we did last year after 105 games. Of course, as some will surely point out, this may not mean much because the opponents played have been different and all, but in the end it's about winning and losing games.

 

I don't think there's a knee-jerk reaction going on at all.

[ThePuck]

I do like that approach as the Astros did. It definately helps. If only we had the time machines... On another note, I really hope that Ryan didn't truly believe that this lineup was going to play games that matter in September. If so all of my assumptions about him are wrong..

 

When in doubt, honesty is the best policy. Some might go so far as to say the truth is always the best policy.

[Jack Torse]

I don't understand why they demoted Hicks. For friggin Clete Thomas to get all the playing time? I'm sure Clete is nice to puppies and little kids but he's almost as overmatched as Hicks and clearly not as good of a defender.

 

It really comes down to the team's refusal to aggressively spend money on bringing in impact players. Their efforts on starting pitching this off season was cheap and quantity over quality. The new stadium was supposed to be able to allow them to keep their best players. Clearly that didn't happen. What's happened is exactly what the organization deserves and a predictable tragedy for their fans.

[AROG]

I don't understand why they demoted Hicks. For friggin Clete Thomas to get all the playing time? I'm sure Clete is nice to puppies and little kids but he's almost as overmatched as Hicks and clearly not as good of a defender.

 

The move is about service time. We get one more year of team control...

[Kwak]

This may have been brought up in the last five pages, but I don't have the time right now to read this whole thread...

 

This feels really knee-jerk. I mean, don't get me wrong, the Twins aren't anything special and frankly they are pretty boring to watch, but before the Royals sweep, we had won two games in each of the last four series (8-5)... So, 8-8 over the last 16 when you include the sweep.

 

There's nothing wrong with that.

 

What's with this sudden wave of extreme negativity?

 

Many posters thought this team would be competitive as well as building. They expected 2014 to be near .500 and 2015 to be in serious playoff contention. They also expected the FO to add some "pieces for the future". Realization has come. This team isn't going anywhere fast. Hicks, Arcia, and Gibson were all highly touted "prospects", they have struggled mightily suggesting that the rest of the new wave won't all have a rookie season like Mike Trout. In other words, the losing will continue even longer and that the likelihood of signing high-quality free agents to help the rebuild is nil. In short, they are depressed and frustrated.

[Kwak]

I don't understand why they demoted Hicks. For friggin Clete Thomas to get all the playing time? I'm sure Clete is nice to puppies and little kids but he's almost as overmatched as Hicks and clearly not as good of a defender.

 

It really comes down to the team's refusal to aggressively spend money on bringing in impact players. Their efforts on starting pitching this off season was cheap and quantity over quality. The new stadium was supposed to be able to allow them to keep their best players. Clearly that didn't happen. What's happened is exactly what the organization deserves and a predictable tragedy for their fans.

 

He wasn't improving he was regressing. A team can't say "No scholarships" and then ignore Hicks's chronic failure to perform. The Twins are also big believers in "learning in the minors", so this move is expected.

[TheLeviathan]

I disagree. Ryan might have that mindset but some GMs are clearly more willing than others to improve already playoff-bound teams.

 

You are right about Smith and we may still have him as GM had Ramos' injury not derailed a Cliff Lee deal, but I am not a believer in the "all in" trade philosophy. I think the Rauch, Pavano, etc type of deals are wiser, cheaper, and ultimately more productive moves.

 

though Ryan has even shown hesitation on those moves historically. So not sure it's all that comforting a thought.

[Mr. Brooks]

I just want to say... Personally... I will not slam Moore from the Royals... he needed pitching and he had a surplus of youth... he made a trade to go for it... Steep price but I can see the logic... I wouldn't have done it but I see the logic.

 

Nor am I going to slam Terry Ryan... I wasn't expecting a parade this year. It was gonna be a long road and it still is.

 

However... I do agree with Rogers's earlier post... Morneau, Willingham, Doumit and Plouffe have been big disappointments and I think that a large part of 2013 should be placed on their shoulders.

 

Those guys had 100 dinger potential combined. We will be lucky to get 50 combined!!!

 

We have 2 guys leading the team with 10 homers and its August. Pedro Florimon is 3 home runs off the home run lead and that kinda speaks volumes.

 

If you are getting that kind of power output... You need to reach base a lot. That ain't working either.

 

Anyone who was expecting anything from Morneau this year was wearing blinders. This is who he is post concussion, period.

I got quite a kick out of people coming into the season who thought he was suddenly going to become the Morneau of old, and even more baffling as that in this thread there seem to be people who are surprised he didn't!!

[Riverbrian]

Anyone who was expecting anything from Morneau this year was wearing blinders. This is who he is post concussion, period.

I got quite a kick out of people coming into the season who thought he was suddenly going to become the Morneau of old, and even more baffling as that in this thread there seem to be people who are surprised he didn't!!

 

Justin had 19 Homers last year.

 

I don't think it's a leap for anyone to believe Morneau was capable of 20 homers at age 32.

 

I think it's OK to be shocked at Justin's 2013 thus far... 9 homers in 430 at bats is a bit low.

 

Are you under the impression that we or I or some were expecting his 2006 numbers?

 

Speaking for myself... I know that I wasn't.

 

Besides... My comment was based upon Willingham, Morneau, Plouffe and Doumit HR collective output.

 

Those 4 hit 96 home runs combined in 2012... This Year they have 38 Combined.

 

I believe it's possible that Terry Ryan wasn't planning on 38 homers combined from those four into August. I'd be shocked if anyone was.

[Oxtung]

Anyone who was expecting anything from Morneau this year was wearing blinders. This is who he is post concussion, period.

I got quite a kick out of people coming into the season who thought he was suddenly going to become the Morneau of old, and even more baffling as that in this thread there seem to be people who are surprised he didn't!!

 

I'll just second what RB said mostly. Morneau looked so much better in 2012 that it seemed possible, with a fully healthy off season, that he could OPS >.800 this season. I don't think anyone was expecting MVP type numbers but a step forward wasn't out of the question, IMO. I have no problem saying that, to me, his lack of production this year is unexpected.

[howeda7]

With the exceptionof Houston, the three teams with the lowest payrolls in baseball are the best teams in the MLs. Houston is going to be very good but they will have to go through the rebuilding process which takes time, just like the twins.

 

The answer is not overpriced FAs, especially for a team in the middle of the pack revenue wise. The model for the Twins is not the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels. It is a version of the Rays and As where they are able to hold on to some of thier stars instead of trading them away before they hit free agency.

 

The model for the Twins isn't the Yankees, but it doesn't have to be the A's or Rays either. That would be true if they were still stuck in the Dome. There's no reason the Twins can't be the Cardinals of the AL. Should they sign FA's just to do it? No. But they need to go out and get at least one legit starter this off-season and probably a 1B. The starters coming up are not ready, nor sure things, and unless Parmalee turns it on, there's no 1B in the pipe and they need another bat. The current offense is pathetic.

[Mike Sixel]

Again, the As did sign cespades.....so they have spent big money on free agents.........not spending money is no guarantee of winning anymore than spending money is.

[LaBombo]

Just a couple of thoughts:

 

1.) Another example of why jobs should really not be up for grabs in spring training, at least not when still-young players are involved. Hicks had a great spring, and did everything to earn the job... in spring. But the regular season is different.

 

2.) Thought removal of bone chips is generally considered pretty minor, and it is, Diamond, Worley and Hendriks all had trouble in their returns from that surgery. Diamond's down-and-in-on-righties slider just wasn't as sharp this year as it was last year. Maybe they needed to allow more time for recovery...???

 

Second guessing sure is easy, isn't it?

 

Totally agree with your first two very good points, but... second-guessing?

 

There were plenty of reasons before the season started to believe that Hicks wouldn't be ready, and that Diamond would regress and/or struggle to return to form.

 

For that matter, most of what's currently ailing the Twins has been utterly predictable to this point. And most of it was predicted, before the season started. That's not second-guessing, that's just pointing out that the front office was basically doing this to itself:

 

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/bigblu89/Gifs/FightClubPunch.gif

[diehardtwinsfan]

I'll just second what RB said mostly. Morneau looked so much better in 2012 that it seemed possible, with a fully healthy off season, that he could OPS >.800 this season. I don't think anyone was expecting MVP type numbers but a step forward wasn't out of the question, IMO. I have no problem saying that, to me, his lack of production this year is unexpected.

 

Part of me wonders if he isn't tired. When's the last time he played this far into a season without significant time on the DL?

[jokin]

That was a couple years ago and he was pretty poor at it then.

 

But yes he is a functional mlb player so he could hypothetically do it.

 

Hypothetically, functionally and actually, McLouth would be our best OF, in LF, RF or CF.