The Most Encouraging Early-Season Stories for the Twins Have, Sadly, Faded Fast

[karcherd]

55 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

These two sentences are important and worth strong consideration. I think you are on the right track. 

I agree with almost everything you are saying. I just don't believe that Falvey knew. 

Those are perfect sentences... if you look at what you wrote. You are correct... he should know the financial situation and make decisions accordingly. Payroll going up further was the only way to sustain momentum without minimum making options for an alternative.  

However... He didn't make decisions accordingly... you and I agree that he didn't and we agree that with knowledge he should have staffed accordingly and he didn't. Therefore I don't think he knew. I think he was told the opposite... evidenced by payroll going up to levels I've never seen. The signing of Correa, the trading for Mahle. These are not moves made by a team about to run out of money. 

Anybody who buys a house with no money left over to pay down the mortgage or pay the property tax. No money for food to keep you alive. 

Somebody who does that wouldn't get one of these 30 jobs. 

I don't know... I can only guess... but those were two great sentences and those two sentences are something we should all think about. Why did he staff with money when there wasn't enough money? Those sentences are which way is the wind blowing sentences for consideration. 

Thank you for the comments and I agree mostly.  The reason I think Falvey knew more, was he had to have some level of visibility to the financials of the Twins organization in his position.  So by 2023 I would think he would have had some knowledge of how sustainable that payroll is.  But as you say, none of us know for sure, but I don't think all the blame goes on the Pohlads, Falvey deserves his share as well.

[Wedman13]

1 hour ago, karcherd said:

Thank you for the comments and I agree mostly.  The reason I think Falvey knew more, was he had to have some level of visibility to the financials of the Twins organization in his position.  So by 2023 I would think he would have had some knowledge of how sustainable that payroll is.  But as you say, none of us know for sure, but I don't think all the blame goes on the Pohlads, Falvey deserves his share as well.

We'll never know.  Falvine did operate as if they thought funding was there, then poof.  Should they have known?  In a Calvin Griffith world where baseball was his only business, yes, the financial standing is more clear.  But think of the Pohlads, Wilfs, AROD&Lorie.  These are folks with very complex portfolios and their family decisions for generational wealth isn't as clear.  

Something changed, and in hindsight, (per a poster above) a true rebuild probably should have happened.  Instead, we found ourselves with a 'half in half out' plan which, is a fragmented disaster.

[karcherd]

1 hour ago, Wedman13 said:

We'll never know.  Falvine did operate as if they thought funding was there, then poof.  Should they have known?  In a Calvin Griffith world where baseball was his only business, yes, the financial standing is more clear.  But think of the Pohlads, Wilfs, AROD&Lorie.  These are folks with very complex portfolios and their family decisions for generational wealth isn't as clear.  

Something changed, and in hindsight, (per a poster above) a true rebuild probably should have happened.  Instead, we found ourselves with a 'half in half out' plan which, is a fragmented disaster.

The Twins are one of many entities for the Pohlad family that has its own set of books.  Falvey as PBO should have had some level of visibility to the Twins books and been able to see if the payroll was sustainable.  This isn't voodoo magic, there are accounting standards and tax regulations that they have to follow.  At the individual entity level it is not as complex as you want to make it.  Now we will never know the level of knowledge Falvey had, but to say he had none is naive.

[Wedman13]

58 minutes ago, karcherd said:

The Twins are one of many entities for the Pohlad family that has its own set of books.  Falvey as PBO should have had some level of visibility to the Twins books and been able to see if the payroll was sustainable.  This isn't voodoo magic, there are accounting standards and tax regulations that they have to follow.  At the individual entity level it is not as complex as you want to make it.  Now we will never know the level of knowledge Falvey had, but to say he had none is naive.

Agree, but today's owners do not operate at the individual entity level.  Each may be individually audited but depending on structure most gains and losses pass through.   It is not uncommon in the least for holding companies to allocate expenses for purposes of preparing for a sale, to create NOL's for tax carry over purposes, or a myriad of other reasons to put lipstick on a pig or prepare it for slaughter.  No different than Sinclair taking Diamond/Ballys sports to bankruptcy while their parent still trades on the NASDAQ. Not to mention interests of minority partners.  Businesses in today's landscape are continually revalued and balance sheets leveraged based on future intentions and tax advantaged of ownership.  
 

So while falvine possibly 'should' have known payroll was intended to be decimated (coincidentally right before ownership actively tried to sell the club), their actions say they didn't know.  Why not?  We'll never know.  But going from trading future assets (Mahle, Gray trades) and signing big $ free agents......to suddenly reducing all payroll says that surely ownership and management were not on the same page - or something quickly changed.  And based on that change, falvine did not pivot well to the new reality.

so basically, what you said.... but I give falvine a bit more rope than the owners.  

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, karcherd said:

The Twins are one of many entities for the Pohlad family that has its own set of books.  Falvey as PBO should have had some level of visibility to the Twins books and been able to see if the payroll was sustainable.  This isn't voodoo magic, there are accounting standards and tax regulations that they have to follow.  At the individual entity level it is not as complex as you want to make it.  Now we will never know the level of knowledge Falvey had, but to say he had none is naive.

I think Occam's Razor should be leading you to question your own conclusion.  In your scenario he knows that they are freight-training towards a devastating payroll cut and he.....adds payroll.  (Or veteran talent that will lead to higher payroll) This jeopardizes his own job and what he was clearly trying to build by forcing him to pivot later.  It doesn't make sense.

What does make sense (or, at least, much more sense) is that he had assurances from ownership that he could proceed under previously discussed parameters.  Or at least something very much around those parameters.  Afterall...part of how Falvey got there was with a close relationship to the family.  Viewed through the lense of "he was going along with what he was told to expect" - his behavior makes perfect sense.  In your theory?  Not so much.

Falvey, for better or worse, (better for his own career, worse for us as fans) was a company man.  Your premise basically implies he went rogue without any assurances.  It just doesn't line up with his entire track record in his job.  Tom basically said the same - the family made a call that completely ignored the fans, the team, and the context following the 2023 season.  No reason to think you can't add the GM to that list too.

[karcherd]

13 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

I think Occam's Razor should be leading you to question your own conclusion.  In your scenario he knows that they are freight-training towards a devastating payroll cut and he.....adds payroll.  (Or veteran talent that will lead to higher payroll) This jeopardizes his own job and what he was clearly trying to build by forcing him to pivot later.  It doesn't make sense.

What does make sense (or, at least, much more sense) is that he had assurances from ownership that he could proceed under previously discussed parameters.  Or at least something very much around those parameters.  Afterall...part of how Falvey got there was with a close relationship to the family.  Viewed through the lense of "he was going along with what he was told to expect" - his behavior makes perfect sense.  In your theory?  Not so much.

Falvey, for better or worse, (better for his own career, worse for us as fans) was a company man.  Your premise basically implies he went rogue without any assurances.  It just doesn't line up with his entire track record in his job.  Tom basically said the same - the family made a call that completely ignored the fans, the team, and the context following the 2023 season.  No reason to think you can't add the GM to that list too.

You haven't read a word I have posted.  You are acting like Falvey just sat at his desk and took his marching orders from Joe P without question.  He knew what the budget was, he very likely knew the direction it was going to go in future years.  He chose to double down on Correa after 23 rather than utilize the resources more wisely or invest in player development.  He was upper management and he had access to information many others didn't and he chose a course of action that he should have known there was risk.  

You are acting like he acted in a vacuum and had no idea of the consequences of his actions.  I have seen plenty of management teams be given the green light for spending on projects but hold off or find other opportunities with less risk.  That is not the path Falvey took.  As I have said I don't know the level of knowledge Falvey had nor do you.  But I consider both Falvey and the Pohlad family responsible for this mess.

[TheLeviathan]

23 minutes ago, karcherd said:

You haven't read a word I have posted.  You are acting like Falvey just sat at his desk and took his marching orders from Joe P without question.  He knew what the budget was, he very likely knew the direction it was going to go in future years.  He chose to double down on Correa after 23 rather than utilize the resources more wisely or invest in player development.  He was upper management and he had access to information many others didn't and he chose a course of action that he should have known there was risk.  

You are acting like he acted in a vacuum and had no idea of the consequences of his actions.  I have seen plenty of management teams be given the green light for spending on projects but hold off or find other opportunities with less risk.  That is not the path Falvey took.  As I have said I don't know the level of knowledge Falvey had nor do you.  But I consider both Falvey and the Pohlad family responsible for this mess.

I've read everything you've typed, it hasn't made sense at any point.  Let's start with this - Falvey's job is partially to take "marching orders" from the Pohlads.  He is their employee.  You seem to flirt with this implication of him as a partner of sorts when he was not in any position in 2023 to act in such a way.  He was a high level employee but an employee nonetheless. No part of his job is setting the payroll, he was not in that sort of role until later. You don't stop there: You imply he frivolously spent knowing that the budget would be kneecapped.  Hell, you seem to even impugn him for *checks notes from the last post* the sin of spending the full budget he was allocated.  These are really bizarre attacks on him for reasons I don't understand.  What I, and now Riverbrian as well, are trying to get you to see is that none of this passes basic logic or Occam's Razor.  It's layers of nonsensical behavior on Falvey's part that you continue to assert with the only stated reasoning for implying these behaviors is to allow you to throw him into the blame pile for this very specific act.  (Cutting the payroll after 2023)

Falvey is responsible for many parts of this mess.  His drafting and development have simply been poor.  When he was aggressive his trades were not as successful as desired.  He lead the organization through roughly a decade of "blech" in terms of talent acquisition.  What he is not responsible for is abrupt budgetary decisions by his employer.  I don't understand the crusade to make that his responsibility when there are so many other parts of the mess he is actually responsible for.

[bean5302]

On 6/12/2026 at 3:11 PM, Nick Nelson said:

Reconstructing the roster to win in 2026 was essentially an impossible request after what happened at the deadline last year. Especially when the "bold, aggressive approach" doesn't involve spending any money.

I did it for you a couple posts later, dude. It's not impossible. It would have been very difficult and the Twins may have needed to part ways with more assets to do it, but not impossible. Aside from that, Tom Pohlad made it clear what Falvey's orders were in December, not February. Falvey simply bumbled his way through another offseason long enough that even the actual owners were convinced he didn't have the skill set to build a winning team.

[karcherd]

11 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

I've read everything you've typed, it hasn't made sense at any point.  Let's start with this - Falvey's job is partially to take "marching orders" from the Pohlads.  He is their employee.  You seem to flirt with this implication of him as a partner of sorts when he was not in any position in 2023 to act in such a way.  He was a high level employee but an employee nonetheless. No part of his job is setting the payroll, he was not in that sort of role until later. You don't stop there: You imply he frivolously spent knowing that the budget would be kneecapped.  Hell, you seem to even impugn him for *checks notes from the last post* the sin of spending the full budget he was allocated.  These are really bizarre attacks on him for reasons I don't understand.  What I, and now Riverbrian as well, are trying to get you to see is that none of this passes basic logic or Occam's Razor.  It's layers of nonsensical behavior on Falvey's part that you continue to assert with the only stated reasoning for implying these behaviors is to allow you to throw him into the blame pile for this very specific act.  (Cutting the payroll after 2023)

Falvey is responsible for many parts of this mess.  His drafting and development have simply been poor.  When he was aggressive his trades were not as successful as desired.  He lead the organization through roughly a decade of "blech" in terms of talent acquisition.  What he is not responsible for is abrupt budgetary decisions by his employer.  I don't understand the crusade to make that his responsibility when there are so many other parts of the mess he is actually responsible for.

Falvey's job was to lead the baseball operations and present a plan to the owners of the best way to run the operations and produce a winning team.  The owners job is to say yea or nay.  The Pohlads are not giving day to day direction, they didn't add the many layers of employees to the analytics department, Falvey did when he presented a plan.  This is just one example of decisions he needed to make, but he had to know that there were potential dollars to do this.  He was essentially the #2 decision maker in running the Twins, he was not a passive bystander waiting for orders from his bosses.

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, karcherd said:

Falvey's job was to lead the baseball operations and present a plan to the owners of the best way to run the operations and produce a winning team.  The owners job is to say yea or nay.  The Pohlads are not giving day to day direction, they didn't add the many layers of employees to the analytics department, Falvey did when he presented a plan.  This is just one example of decisions he needed to make, but he had to know that there were potential dollars to do this.  He was essentially the #2 decision maker in running the Twins, he was not a passive bystander waiting for orders from his bosses.

Falvey was not the head of baseball operations until after this.  He was the GM.  GMs do not set payroll.  He absolutely was a passive bystander in the budget waiting for orders from his bosses on what he would be capped at for spending.  That's what the job of GM is.

He was then in charge of how that money was allocated.  Which he was bad at.

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

I did it for you a couple posts later, dude. It's not impossible. It would have been very difficult and the Twins may have needed to part ways with more assets to do it, but not impossible. Aside from that, Tom Pohlad made it clear what Falvey's orders were in December, not February. Falvey simply bumbled his way through another offseason long enough that even the actual owners were convinced he didn't have the skill set to build a winning team.

It's pretty impossible with no money to spend unless you set the trade logic in MLB the Show '26 to "Take whatever deal bean concocts" like your Nats deal for Wood and Abrams.

[karcherd]

41 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Falvey was not the head of baseball operations until after this.  He was the GM.  GMs do not set payroll.  He absolutely was a passive bystander in the budget waiting for orders from his bosses on what he would be capped at for spending.  That's what the job of GM is.

He was then in charge of how that money was allocated.  Which he was bad at.

You should at least get the facts straight.  On October 3rd, 2016 Falvey was hired as Chief Baseball Officer, essentially the head of baseball operations.  Thad Levine was hired a month later as GM.  Falvey was then given a title boost in 2019 to President of Baseball Operations.  He reported to the ownership group.  Then in 2025 he took on responsibility for the business side of the Twins as well and took over as President for Dave St. Peter.  He was the only one in baseball to have control of both the baseball and business operations.  So to say he was just waiting for orders is just plain wrong.

[TheLeviathan]

12 minutes ago, karcherd said:

You should at least get the facts straight.  On October 3rd, 2016 Falvey was hired as Chief Baseball Officer, essentially the head of baseball operations.  Thad Levine was hired a month later as GM.  Falvey was then given a title boost in 2019 to President of Baseball Operations.  He reported to the ownership group.  Then in 2025 he took on responsibility for the business side of the Twins as well and took over as President for Dave St. Peter.  He was the only one in baseball to have control of both the baseball and business operations.  So to say he was just waiting for orders is just plain wrong.

You are correct in the timeline, I'm playing loose with the word GM, but the point was that he never had business control until after the decision was made.  Even then I question whether the appointment in November of 2024 constituted that kind of power.  

Simple question: at any point in his tenure with the Twins in any of the different hats he wore did Derek Falvey have control over and dictate the payroll cap of the Minnesota Twins?

[karcherd]

2 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

You are correct in the timeline, I'm playing loose with the word GM, but the point was that he never had business control until after the decision was made.  Even then I question whether the appointment in November of 2024 constituted that kind of power.  

Simple question: at any point in his tenure with the Twins in any of the different hats he wore did Derek Falvey have control over and dictate the payroll cap of the Minnesota Twins?

He had control of the baseball operations, he was responsible for the hiring and firing of baseball related personnel in the front office and determining the roster.  St. Peter had responsibility for the business side of the operations, sales, marketing, finance and other support functions.  

Falvey had to get the budget approved by the Pohlad family but he had to have input into it.  It wasn't the Pohlads who came to him and said in 2023 let's sign Correa.  He went to them and said I need a budget of X so that I can sign him.  

So yes he had input and control on how to spend the dollars allocated to him.  But he had to prepare some kind of plan so the family knew what he was spending and if they agreed.  Remember he reported to Jim the first five years and he was very hands.  How else does the organization run without someone steering the ship.

Dave. St. Peter had no official control over the baseball operations, whether he exerted influence, I don't think we will ever know.

[TheLeviathan]

23 minutes ago, karcherd said:

Falvey had to get the budget approved by the Pohlad family 

I'll let the Guiness Book of World Records know about your entry for "Longest Spelling of the word "No""  I think it's got a chance.

[karcherd]

1 minute ago, TheLeviathan said:

I'll let the Guiness Book of World Records know about your entry for "Longest Spelling of the word "No""  I think it's got a chance.

He did have control and helped dictate the budget.  It's is not a yes and no question.  You just want to insist that he was a passive bystander.

[Woof Bronzer]

3 hours ago, bean5302 said:

I did it for you a couple posts later, dude. It's not impossible. It would have been very difficult and the Twins may have needed to part ways with more assets to do it, but not impossible. 

Again, dude, your "plan" involved a laughable trade (for another outfielder) that Washington would never, ever, ever make; signing a crappy reliever for $7m, and illegally trading Bell less than 2 months after signing him and Mendys for no one (for some reason).  Your "plan" would get laughed out of every front office in baseball.  Don't quit your day job lol.  

Your narrative is also shifting.  Yesterday Tommy couldn't wait to fire Falvey, now suddenly he wanted to work with Falvey.  Which is it?  

3 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Aside from that, Tom Pohlad made it clear what Falvey's orders were in December, not February

How do you know this?

I now understand why you are carrying so much water for Tommy.  I'm guessing you emailed Falvey your brilliant "plan" about 7 times and got angrier each time he didn't respond, so now you hate Falvey because if he'd only listened to you the Twins would be World Series champs by now. 

I hate to break it to you, but Tommy isn't hiring you.  

[Woof Bronzer]

17 hours ago, karcherd said:

The Twins are one of many entities for the Pohlad family that has its own set of books.  Falvey as PBO should have had some level of visibility to the Twins books and been able to see if the payroll was sustainable.  This isn't voodoo magic, there are accounting standards and tax regulations that they have to follow.  At the individual entity level it is not as complex as you want to make it.  Now we will never know the level of knowledge Falvey had, but to say he had none is naive.

Your entire premise is based on the false idea that the Twins debt came from operating losses which Falvey would have known about.  It didn't.  The Pohlads used the Twins as a debt shelter for their failing real estate businesses. 

Falvey was an incompetent GM and has played an enormous role in the sad state this franchise finds itself in.  But it's silly to blame him for the Pohlad's dumb decision to double down on a dying market (commercial real estate post-COVID).   

[karcherd]

20 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Your entire premise is based on the false idea that the Twins debt came from operating losses which Falvey would have known about.  It didn't.  The Pohlads used the Twins as a debt shelter for their failing real estate businesses. 

When you label a statement as false, you probably should have facts to back it up.  Unless you have access to the Pohlad famiy books, you do not know this as they are privately held.  The public statements were that the debt was driven by investments in Target Field, pandemic losses and the loss of the regional tv contract.  Those reasons makes sense to me, don't know if it would accounts for all the debt.

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

Falvey was not the head of baseball operations until after this.  He was the GM.  

False.

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

Simple question: at any point in his tenure with the Twins in any of the different hats he wore did Derek Falvey have control over and dictate the payroll cap of the Minnesota Twins?

Good lord.

At the VERY LEAST, Falvey took St Peter's place in 2024.

You're just arguing to argue.

[Mike Sixel]

23 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Good lord.

At the VERY LEAST, Falvey took St Peter's place in 2024.

You're just arguing to argue.

Are you arguing that falvey spent all that money, knowing they would guy the payroll for the next two it three years? Because that seems ridiculous on it's face. 

[USAFChief]

28 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Are you arguing that falvey spent all that money, knowing they would guy the payroll for the next two it three years? Because that seems ridiculous on it's face. 

There is very little chance Falvey was unaware of, at minimum, relative payroll parameters by 2023. He was POBO and in line to take St Peters' job. It's very unlikely he was given St Peters' job without some reasonable advance crossover. 

He'd have had payroll awareness for future estimates. 

[Mike Sixel]

7 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

There is very little chance Falvey was unaware of, at minimum, relative payroll parameters by 2023. He was POBO and in line to take St Peters' job. It's very unlikely he was given St Peters' job without some reasonable advance crossover. 

He'd have had payroll awareness for future estimates. 

So, he just spent way beyond that? That seems very unlikely. 

[Saxophone Joe]

On 6/12/2026 at 8:59 AM, Saxophone Joe said:

Screw it, I'm predicting a vibe shift & a series win against the red-hot Cardinals! Who's with me? Peter? 

Called it! 😎

[Woof Bronzer]

18 hours ago, karcherd said:

When you label a statement as false, you probably should have facts to back it up.  Unless you have access to the Pohlad famiy books, you do not know this as they are privately held.  The public statements were that the debt was driven by investments in Target Field, pandemic losses and the loss of the regional tv contract.  Those reasons makes sense to me, don't know if it would accounts for all the debt.

Do you have access to the Pohlads books?  Or are you just choosing to believe whatever the Pohlads want you to believe?  

Talk to anyone in commercial real estate in the Twin Cities how the Pohlads are doing.  It's well known around town that at a time when most other companies were bailing from commercial real estate - especially class A office space - the Pohlads doubled down.  They are now underwater on a large portion of their real estate portfolio through two companies (United Properties and Northmarq).  Shifting debt around is actually a pretty common business practice for large corporations like the Pohlads.  They just got caught with their hands in the cookie jar when they decided to sell the team.  

Here's the biggest tell:  if the Twins were really losing hundreds of millions year over year (keeping in mind that they receive $200m in revenue sharing), the Pohlads would have sold the team for a dollar, not to mention $1.5b.  So if what you are saying is true, that the Pohlads ran Twins-only operating losses in the hundreds of millions of dollars for several years (even though they received $200m in revenue sharing), then turning down $1.5b for the privilege of continuing to lose hundreds of millions of dollars every year would make the Pohlads quite possibly the dumbest businesspeople in the history of capitalism.  

The number of fans carrying water for the Pohlads in this thread is really surprising.  

 

[karcherd]

17 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Do you have access to the Pohlads books?  Or are you just choosing to believe whatever the Pohlads want you to believe?  

Talk to anyone in commercial real estate in the Twin Cities how the Pohlads are doing.  It's well known around town that at a time when most other companies were bailing from commercial real estate - especially class A office space - the Pohlads doubled down.  They are now underwater on a large portion of their real estate portfolio through two companies (United Properties and Northmarq).  Shifting debt around is actually a pretty common business practice for large corporations like the Pohlads.  They just got caught with their hands in the cookie jar when they decided to sell the team.  

Here's the biggest tell:  if the Twins were really losing hundreds of millions year over year (keeping in mind that they receive $200m in revenue sharing), the Pohlads would have sold the team for a dollar, not to mention $1.5b.  So if what you are saying is true, that the Pohlads ran Twins-only operating losses in the hundreds of millions of dollars for several years (even though they received $200m in revenue sharing), then turning down $1.5b for the privilege of continuing to lose hundreds of millions of dollars every year would make the Pohlads quite possibly the dumbest businesspeople in the history of capitalism.  

The number of fans carrying water for the Pohlads in this thread is really surprising.  

 

I very clearly said I don't the know the cause of the debt, you seem more certain to me.  You are making a lot of assumptions and they may be correct but none of us know.  

What has been reported is that the Twins were one of two teams in 2020 that did not lay off any employees during Covid.  It makes sense to me that would cause some level of debt, have no idea how much.

They have said some debt was from Target Field improvements that is not operating losses from an accounting standpoint.  

Have they shifted debt around, who knows, every entity, the Pohlads run is owned by a holding company and they did sell another major piece of their portfolio in the last year so my guess that was somewhat due to the property losses.

I also know that they have brought in two new minority partners and if they were moving too much debt or not operating in a normal fashion, those partners would not have signed on to spend hundreds of millions of dollars.

I am not a fan of the Pohlad family, but I was around when were there threats to move the team in the early 80's and Carl Pohlad prevented that.  I am thankful for that.  I like that they have mostly been hands off owners, that usually hires the right people to run the organization and let them do their job.  I think Joe was too hands on and I wish Tom would get out of the way and hire someone competent to run the baseball side of the operations.  I am just not as down on the Pohlads as many others are.  Falvey ran this organization into the ground and everyone wants to blame the payroll number but that is only one side of the equation.

[Woof Bronzer]

48 minutes ago, karcherd said:

I also know that they have brought in two new minority partners and if they were moving too much debt or not operating in a normal fashion, those partners would not have signed on to spend hundreds of millions of dollars

But you think those same partners would have invested in an organization losing hundreds of millions of dollars  every year despite receiving $200m/yr in welfare (revenue sharing)?  Think about this for a minute. 

 

48 minutes ago, karcherd said:

Falvey ran this organization into the ground and everyone wants to blame the payroll number but that is only one side of the equation.

Agree on this.  Total System Failure.  

[karcherd]

25 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

But you think those same partners would have invested in an organization losing hundreds of millions of dollars  every year despite receiving $200m/yr in welfare (revenue sharing)?  Think about this for a minute

You are correct, I am not sure all the losses are related to operating costs except the local tv money.   But if some the debt was to Target field investments and pandemic losses as the Twins claimed then yes I think they would have invested.

This is the real question what were they shown for the operations of the business and how much are they losing on operations.  That is what we will never truly know.  Some of the investment was definitely due to potential growth of the franchise value and getting a return on that.

[TheLeviathan]

5 hours ago, karcherd said:

I am just not as down on the Pohlads as many others are.  Falvey ran this organization into the ground and everyone wants to blame the payroll number but that is only one side of the equation.

I think we found the crux of our disagreement here.  I am down on the Pohlads and like Woof I suspect "right sizing" was driven by failures outside baseball.  That only adds to my opinion but regardless it isn't Falvey's job to dictate payroll increases or decreases.  It just isn't and even you basically admitted as much.  Knowledge or not, it isnt his call.  Definitely not if outside real estate blunders by the Pohlad family add to it.

And that's the crux, if you go back to my original comment I was purely talking ownership and their post-2023 decision as feeling like the turning point on this steep decline.  But you are 100% right that the equation contains many components.  I wouldn't even argue that Falvey owns blame on most of them!  I've been in the chorus here wanting him fired.  I just can't fault him for the one component I feel like was the seminal moment that really set this death roll into motion.  The tone deaf Pohlads in charge now own that one.

Along with a bunch of ****** downtown real estate properties, :)