Article: Play at the plate angers Twins manager

[Parker Hageman]

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=2011-Gardenhire-seeking-payback

[Otto von Ballpark]

It's a pretty big stretch to say this injury really affected Doumit (so far). 5-20 with no XBH since? Heck, just before the White Sox series, Doumit had a 5-32 stretch with no XBH. He was 2-13 with no XBH in the Cleveland series before this injury.

 

Also, I am far from an expert on such matters, but I don't see much egregious there in Gomes' play. It looks like he was set up for the ball in front of the plate, and moved over to foul territory when the throw came in offline. The most notable thing about his play is definitely Doumit's lack of a slide, which is just weird considering his other recent no-slide play at the plate.

[jimbo92107]

This argument is nonsense. Baseball is not football, where collisions are the coin of the realm. If a fielder is not in the act of fielding or does not have the ball, by rule he must give up the basepath to the runner. Think about it not just from an injury standpoint, but from the basic fairness that is supposed to be the nature of this game. When a runner comes home, he has earned that run. You're supposed to respect what others have earned. Blocking the plate not only risks injury, it's the wrong lesson to be teaching kids.

[Steve Penz]

My apologies because my comment is off the topic right away but this play is hot button for me. Doumit should have been sliding into home and this would not be an issue. He would not be hurt, he would not have barely made it back to the plate to get called safe, it would not be an issue. To make it worse he was called out on play a few games prior when he did not slide and the catcher tricked him. Whether it was him or whether there was poor communication with the on deck batter who should be protecting him, I don't care. Figure it out and slide please. This play is in the same category as "hit the cut off man", "don't miss signs", and "the pitcher needs to remember to cover first." It is basic fundamentals.

[Winston Smith]

I was a catcher for most of my youth and see nothing wrong with what Gomes did. He was giving Doumit half the plate to slide into and trying to catch the ball. If Doumit slides, like he should, there is nothing to even consider here.

[Parker Hageman]

It's a pretty big stretch to say this injury really affected Doumit (so far). 5-20 with no XBH since? Heck, just before the White Sox series, Doumit had a 5-32 stretch with no XBH. He was 2-13 with no XBH in the Cleveland series before this injury.

 

I agree with your basic premise but I will respond thusly: Yes. The 21 plate appearances sample size is far too small to simply say he is injured and it is effecting his hitting. Like you pointed out, there are plenty of instances in which a stretch of baseball could have similar results - healthy or not. HOWEVER, he sprained his ankle on June 23 and we have watched him hobble up and down the baselines so of course the injury is directly influencing his current numbers. The question is how long will this injury influence his performance? Sprains can be minor but they can be finicky.

[TheLeviathan]

I was a catcher for most of my youth and see nothing wrong with what Gomes did. He was giving Doumit half the plate to slide into and trying to catch the ball. If Doumit slides, like he should, there is nothing to even consider here.

 

This. Plus, he was going to have to cutoff Doumit either way to get to the throw which was up the line. Doumit slides and its a non-issue.

 

one of the things I really dislike about most of these unwritten rules is they seem largely like excuses for stupidity or bad fundamentals.

[Jon Marthaler]

I have two entirely contradictory thoughts, and I am having trouble reconciling them.

 

Thought 1: You don't like the catcher blocking the plate without the ball? He'll have a harder time doing that if you knock him into the first-base dugout.

 

Thought 2: Geez, Jennings just goes shoulder-first into Marson's head. That's a potential career-ender right there, and on a play that the ball beats Jennings to the plate. That isn't right.

 

I suppose the solution is to have the umpires enforce the "no blocking the plate without the ball" rule, but equally, I suppose that's impossible.

[Thrylos]

I don't know. The Twins did not retaliate for Swisher's dirty slide that broke their starting SS's leg. That play was way dirtier. I just don't think they have it in them...

[BabyJesusBuxton]

I was at this game and Doumit is not to blame for not sliding in the case where he sprained his ankle. Justin Morneau did not get in position to signal him to slide. After Doumit dove back into home to score he got up and gave Morneau a puzzled look on why he didn't tell him to get dirty.

[BabyJesusBuxton]

I don't know. The Twins did not retaliate for Swisher's dirty slide that broke their starting SS's leg. That play was way dirtier. I just don't think they have it in them...

 

Nishioka could have prevented that injury. Swisher made a good hard slide into second to break up a double play. If Florimon, Dozier, Plouffe or anyone else was playing SS they move to avoid the contact as best they can. Nishioka wasn't accustomed to that sort of slide coming from Japan and just stood in there and took the contact.

[Parker Hageman]

Justin Morneau did not get in position to signal him to slide. After Doumit dove back into home to score he got up and gave Morneau a puzzled look on why he didn't tell him to get dirty.

 

If you are referring to the Gomes play, it was actually Plouffe who was on the on deck circle that should have been flagging Doumit down. Still, three games prior, in almost the same condition, Morneau was waving for Doumit to get down and he simply did not. Not sure if Doumit would have slid even if Plouffe was right next to the plate waving like a mad-man.

[BabyJesusBuxton]

If you are referring to the Gomes play, it was actually Plouffe who was on the on deck circle that should have been flagging Doumit down. Still, three games prior, in almost the same condition, Morneau was waving for Doumit to get down and he simply did not. Not sure if Doumit would have slid even if Plouffe was right next to the plate waving like a mad-man.

 

My bad on the name. I didn't go back to check the box score. And I agree that there was no guarantee that Doumit would have slid but Plouffe still needs to be there. It is baseball fundamentals and I am sure it was talked about in the dugout/club house afterwards.

[Parker Hageman]

By the way, Terry Steinbach will be on with Judd Zulgad at 11:35 today. I'm sure the topic will come up and we will hear the Twins' catcher emeritus discuss the play and probably what the team's instructions on blocking the plate are: 1500 ESPN Twin Cities ? Minnesota Sports News & Opinion (Twins, Vikings, Wolves, Wild, Gophers)

[Vervehound]

This. Plus, he was going to have to cutoff Doumit either way to get to the throw which was up the line. Doumit slides and its a non-issue.

 

one of the things I really dislike about most of these unwritten rules is they seem largely like excuses for stupidity or bad fundamentals.

 

ding ding ding. gardenhire vents about a play and he chooses this one? the throw was up the line and the catch was reacting to it. what a stupid thing to be upset about.

[Parker Hageman]

Terry Steinbach on 1500: "It was not a clean play...it was a crappy play."

[Parker Hageman]

Steinbach on 1500: "He tried to trip him up."

[LewFordLives]

That happened over a week ago. Why is Gardenhire complaining about it now? Stop looking for scapegoats. A bruised Ryan Doumit does not fully account for the extremely poor quality baseball we've been seeing over the last couple weeks.

[Parker Hageman]

Steinbach: "I think catchers need to hold their ground...if there is a play, they need to block the plate...if there is not a play, you have got to get out of the way."

[TheLeviathan]

So the catcher shouldve let it go the the backup and risk Arcia advancing to third? That seems really odd.

[DaveW]

So the catcher shouldve let it go the the backup and risk Arcia advancing to third? That seems really odd.

 

No, he could have simply taken a step in front of the plate.

 

It was dirty, plain and simple. Doumit needs to learn how to freaking slide though.

[TheLeviathan]

Even if he takes his left foot off...the throw is considerably left of the plate...he would have had to step that way anyway

[Otto von Ballpark]

HOWEVER, he sprained his ankle on June 23 and we have watched him hobble up and down the baselines so of course the injury is directly influencing his current numbers.

 

Fair enough. I actually haven't been able to watch the team since then, just following on radio.

 

Has there been any talk of a DL stint? If he is legitimately hobbled, to the point where he isn't likely to log an extra base hit, why not DL him for awhile? And get Josmil Pinto to AAA, if not the majors? Would certainly be better than batting such a player 3rd in the lineup, which is what Gardy has been doing lately.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Even if he takes his left foot off...the throw is considerably left of the plate...he would have had to step that way anyway

Agreed. I don't see how he could avoid crossing Doumit's path unless he just let the ball go by. Doesn't even look like he could realistically step up the base line, toward the throw, to cut it off -- it was coming in pretty wide and fast.

[Willihammer]

So the catcher shouldve let it go the the backup and risk Arcia advancing to third? That seems really odd.

 

This is my thought too. The ball arrives about midway back in the righthanded batter's box just after Doumit gets there. Gomes has to either cross the runner to catch it or let him pass unmolested and then go get the ball. In the first case, he runs the risk of getting called for interference and the runner advances to 3rd, in the 2nd case he all but guarantees the runner advancement.

[Winston Smith]

This at least gets people talking about something other than how Gardy's team is playing!

[StormJH1]

Yeah, I think Parker had it right early in the article, but covered the rest of the "debate" because so many Twins-related quotes are whining about it. He should be sliding there, no question about it. Yes, you can get hurt sliding feet first into home (Robin Ventura comes to mind). But there's no way Gomes could have "tripped" Doumit unless he predicted a future where Doumit tries to tiptoe over he plate, instead of sliding to avoid a potential tag.

 

Gomes was reacting to the throw being late and feeling like the plate was exposed. His priorities there were catching the ball and finding a tag, not tripping the runner.

 

Following the Buster Posey injury, I'm sure Mauer probably has instructions to head to a bomb shelter if it looks like there's a possibility of a home plate collision, but I'm pretty sure Twins players do stuff like this from time to time and Gardy never calls them dirty.

[Red Holstein]

Was gardenhire equally furious with Torii hunter a few years ago when he demolished the Whitesox catcher who was standing a full step in front of home plate without the ball? It befuddles me that he got so much praise for that. I thought it was one of the dirtiest plays I've ever seen. I think it ended his season, if not his career.

[OldManWinter]

LosinG takes A toLl On A Team. You Are Just Hearing Frustration. To Gardy's Credit He Is Not Taking It Out On His Team. (What The Hell Causes These Misplaced Capital LetterRs ... Anyone Else Have That Issue)?

[RodneyKline]

Watch the replay closely...Doumit's footwork was just messed up. No one tried to trip him. He just missed the plate.