Best fix for Shortstop?

[Oxtung]

Front loading doesn't really happen in baseball. I'd argue because there is heavy union/peer pressure not to because those deals are seen as favoring ownership.

 

It's a concept I think we all could get behind, but it's so non-existent that positing it even in a hypothetical doesn't seem realistic.

 

Why would the union or the players have a problem with front loading? That just means they get their money sooner and can put it away gaining returns a few years earlier. I think front loading would actually favor the player.

 

You're are right that the concept is non existant.

[TheLeviathan]

Why would the union or the players have a problem with front loading? That just means they get their money sooner and can put it away gaining returns a few years earlier. I think front loading would actually favor the player.

 

You're are right that the concept is non existant.

 

Your right about all of those points but IMO the only explanation for it never happening is the union. It presents as being too owner friendly because it breaks the norm of increasing salaries for the benefit of the organization/ownership financials.

[UCLA_YANKEE_COLA]

So many players are drafted/signed as players at premium defensive positions but wind up being moved to less demanding positions. Sano was a SS, Morneau was a C, Plouffe was a SS, etc. So while it sounds like the right idea to sign a SS in the Int'l market, where they play in 6 years or whenever they're ready for the big leagues is no guarantee.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Don't look now, but Florimon is now exactly tied with Escobar with a .621 OPS. Their similar profiles continue to be eerily similar... come to think of it, has anyone ever seen both play shortstop at the same time? I don't think so...

 

Florimon has a commanding edge on defense, however, according to WAR.

[BabyJesusBuxton]

It is safe to say that there is not currently a SS within the organization that will provide both the defense needed and an OPS above 0.750.

 

Everyone continues to bring up Florimon's bat as the reason he shouldn't play everyday but the way I see it is you can either have terrible defense and give the other teams extra runs, or have a subpar bat and lose offensive production. IMO it is more beneficial to have the latter, eliminate defensive miscues, and play small ball with the subpar bat at the bottom of the order as the Twins did with the Piranhas of the early 2000s.

 

With that approach I think Florimon will be serviceable for foreseeable future. Everyone knows that both developing all star caliber SS and finding one on the FA market is not easy. Most SS prospects either change positions due to range/arm strength issues or don't pan out with the bat and most teams tend to lock up elite SS long term ASAP.

[beckmt]

Florimon has done a decent job at this time. Give it to at least the end of the year to see what happens. Players coming are not ready and so it will probably be at least 2015 before a player moves up to here and can play SS

[Kwak]

When the official scorer changes an error on Florimon to an error on Morneau does that improve Florimon's UZR?

[cmb0252]

Easy fix.

 

1. Lose a bunch of games.

2.Draft N.C. States Trea Turner.

3. Have Turner and Buxton, both 80 speed guys, hit 1/2 in your line up.

4. Drink a celebratory beer.

5. Be happy.

[AlwaysinModeration]

Easy fix.

 

1. Lose a bunch of games.

2.Draft N.C. States Trea Turner.

3. Have Turner and Buxton, both 80 speed guys, hit 1/2 in your line up.

4. Drink a celebratory beer.

5. Be happy.

6.????

7. Profit!

[jokin]

Florimon has been a pleasant surprise, but he's not a future foundation guy (as of now). I tend to agree that waiver wire trash is not going to provide any sort of significant upgrade over him now, though I do think the Twins should be targeting something of value at that position for their current trades.

 

What method did you think the Twins used to acquire Florimon in the first place?

[drjim]

It is safe to say that there is not currently a SS within the organization that will provide both the defense needed and an OPS above 0.750.

 

Everyone continues to bring up Florimon's bat as the reason he shouldn't play everyday but the way I see it is you can either have terrible defense and give the other teams extra runs, or have a subpar bat and lose offensive production. IMO it is more beneficial to have the latter, eliminate defensive miscues, and play small ball with the subpar bat at the bottom of the order as the Twins did with the Piranhas of the early 2000s.

 

With that approach I think Florimon will be serviceable for foreseeable future. Everyone knows that both developing all star caliber SS and finding one on the FA market is not easy. Most SS prospects either change positions due to range/arm strength issues or don't pan out with the bat and most teams tend to lock up elite SS long term ASAP.

 

You realize that only 6 mlb shortstops are at the .750 level right? And one of those is Peralta, who won't exactly hit the defensive standard that you strive for (and Lowrie and Desmond aren't exactly great defenders either).

 

Florimon would actually rank in the top half if he had enough abs.

[jokin]

You realize that only 6 mlb shortstops are at the .750 level right? And one of those is Peralta, who won't exactly hit the defensive standard that you strive for (and Lowrie and Desmond aren't exactly great defenders either).

 

Florimon would actually rank in the top half if he had enough abs.

 

 

Uhh, this is incorrect, twice:

 

[TABLE=class: tablehead]

[TR=class: colhead]

[TD=align: left]RK[/TD]

[TD=align: left]PLAYER[/TD]

[TD=align: left]TEAM[/TD]

AB

R

H

2B

3B

HR

RBI

SB

CS

BB

SO

AVG

OBP

SLG

OPS

WAR

[/TR]

[TR=class: oddrow player-10-28567]

[TD=align: left]1[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Troy Tulowitzki[/TD]

[TD=align: left]COL[/TD]

[TD=align: right]222[/TD]

[TD=align: right]41[/TD]

[TD=align: right]77[/TD]

[TD=align: right]16[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]16[/TD]

[TD=align: right]51[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]23[/TD]

[TD=align: right]36[/TD]

[TD=align: right].347[/TD]

[TD=align: right].413[/TD]

[TD=align: right].635[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, align: right]1.048

[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.7[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: evenrow player-10-31037]

[TD=align: left]2[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Jean Segura[/TD]

[TD=align: left]MIL[/TD]

[TD=align: right]324[/TD]

[TD=align: right]46[/TD]

[TD=align: right]105[/TD]

[TD=align: right]9[/TD]

[TD=align: right]8[/TD]

[TD=align: right]11[/TD]

[TD=align: right]33[/TD]

[TD=align: right]24[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3[/TD]

[TD=align: right]13[/TD]

[TD=align: right]42[/TD]

[TD=align: right].324[/TD]

[TD=align: right].357[/TD]

[TD=align: right].503[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, align: right].860[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.4[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: oddrow player-10-29646]

[TD=align: left]3[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Ian Desmond[/TD]

[TD=align: left]WSH[/TD]

[TD=align: right]303[/TD]

[TD=align: right]36[/TD]

[TD=align: right]84[/TD]

[TD=align: right]22[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]15[/TD]

[TD=align: right]49[/TD]

[TD=align: right]8[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]17[/TD]

[TD=align: right]75[/TD]

[TD=align: right].277[/TD]

[TD=align: right].316[/TD]

[TD=align: right].512[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, align: right].828[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.5[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: evenrow player-10-5527]

[TD=align: left]4[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Jhonny Peralta[/TD]

[TD=align: left]DET[/TD]

[TD=align: right]287[/TD]

[TD=align: right]35[/TD]

[TD=align: right]89[/TD]

[TD=align: right]21[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]7[/TD]

[TD=align: right]36[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]27[/TD]

[TD=align: right]69[/TD]

[TD=align: right].310[/TD]

[TD=align: right].369[/TD]

[TD=align: right].456[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, align: right].826[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.2[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: oddrow player-10-29074]

[TD=align: left]5[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Jed Lowrie[/TD]

[TD=align: left]OAK[/TD]

[TD=align: right]298[/TD]

[TD=align: right]37[/TD]

[TD=align: right]92[/TD]

[TD=align: right]22[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]5[/TD]

[TD=align: right]34[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]34[/TD]

[TD=align: right]42[/TD]

[TD=align: right].309[/TD]

[TD=align: right].381[/TD]

[TD=align: right].433[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, align: right].814[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.5[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: evenrow player-10-30155]

[TD=align: left]6[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Everth Cabrera[/TD]

[TD=align: left]SD[/TD]

[TD=align: right]275[/TD]

[TD=align: right]37[/TD]

[TD=align: right]84[/TD]

[TD=align: right]11[/TD]

[TD=align: right]4[/TD]

[TD=align: right]4[/TD]

[TD=align: right]24[/TD]

[TD=align: right]31[/TD]

[TD=align: right]7[/TD]

[TD=align: right]32[/TD]

[TD=align: right]52[/TD]

[TD=align: right].305[/TD]

[TD=align: right].382[/TD]

[TD=align: right].418[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, align: right].800[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.2[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: oddrow player-10-28671]

[TD=align: left]7[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Asdrubal Cabrera[/TD]

[TD=align: left]CLE[/TD]

[TD=align: right]224[/TD]

[TD=align: right]35[/TD]

[TD=align: right]60[/TD]

[TD=align: right]19[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]6[/TD]

[TD=align: right]26[/TD]

[TD=align: right]5[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]14[/TD]

[TD=align: right]58[/TD]

[TD=align: right].268[/TD]

[TD=align: right].322[/TD]

[TD=align: right].451[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, align: right].773[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.1[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: evenrow player-10-31376]

[TD=align: left]8[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Didi Gregorius[/TD]

[TD=align: left]ARI[/TD]

[TD=align: right]208[/TD]

[TD=align: right]31[/TD]

[TD=align: right]60[/TD]

[TD=align: right]11[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]4[/TD]

[TD=align: right]17[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]16[/TD]

[TD=align: right]36[/TD]

[TD=align: right].288[/TD]

[TD=align: right].349[/TD]

[TD=align: right].418[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, align: right].768[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.6[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR=class: oddrow player-10-5908]

[TD=align: left]9[/TD]

[TD=align: left]J.J. Hardy[/TD]

[TD=align: left]BAL[/TD]

[TD=align: right]316[/TD]

[TD=align: right]32[/TD]

[TD=align: right]84[/TD]

[TD=align: right]15[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]15[/TD]

[TD=align: right]46[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]18[/TD]

[TD=align: right]40[/TD]

[TD=align: right].266[/TD]

[TD=align: right].304[/TD]

[TD=align: right].456[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, align: right].759[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.7[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

 

 

Florimon would certainly not rank in the top half. Currently ranking #18 among SS w/ greater than 215 PAs. Good for a waiver wire pickup, but not good enough. (Not saying it's you in particular, but...Funny how some of the same types of voices that said it was useless to pick up other people's garbage as a fools errand, are now defending Florimon over considering alternatives).

 

[TABLE=class: tablehead]

[TR=class: evenrow player-10-30310]

[TD=align: left]18[/TD]

[TD=align: left]Pedro Florimon[/TD]

[TD=align: left]MIN[/TD]

[TD=align: right]194[/TD]

[TD=align: right]19[/TD]

[TD=align: right]45[/TD]

[TD=align: right]9[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3[/TD]

[TD=align: right]24[/TD]

[TD=align: right]7[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]18[/TD]

[TD=align: right]46[/TD]

[TD=align: right].232[/TD]

[TD=align: right].296[/TD]

[TD=align: right].325[/TD]

[TD=class: sortcell, align: right].621[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[drjim]

Interesting, I just did a search of MLB.com stats. I will never trust them again.

 

Not sure why Tulo, Cabrera, Gregarious didn't show up.

[30whales]

Is Niko Goodrum someone that people don't believe can be an everyday shortstop at the major league level?

[stringer bell]

Florimon has been okay, but his numbers in the month of June were a bit frightening. While I am not a fan of most defensive metrics, my eyes tell me that Florimon has both good range and a great arm, although he has kicked a few balls that he should have made plays on. The offense for June: .173 BA, .220/.240/.460 slash line. We are about exactly halfway through the year. If Florimon's offense comes back to what it was for the first third of the season and his defense is steady, he is acceptable. If he continues to hit below the Mendoza line, striking out more than 25% of the time, the Twins will need to make a change.

[stringer bell]

Is Niko Goodrum someone that people don't believe can be an everyday shortstop at the major league level?

In visiting with Terry Ryan while watching a couple of intrasquad games, he said the Goodrum had to do something this year. He said that Goodrum had all the tools, but hadn't put it together. BTW, Goodrum was a Midwest League All-Star, so he has put it together to some degree. I notice that he has started games at both first and second base in the past week.

[Guest USAFChief]

Goodrum ... has started games at both first and second base in the past week.

Ouch. Don't want to read too much into that, but that's not a good sign.

[stringer bell]

Ouch. Don't want to read too much into that, but that's not a good sign.

They're playing Polanco at short. When I saw him, I thought Polanco's arm was a bit short for shortstop, as did Jim Crikket. Goodrum is tall (6'4"?) and maybe he can add versatility to his resume.

[Otwins]

Isint A. Diaz now a Mexican citizen , and elidgible to be signed as a International free agent?

With the Twins out of the Gonzales derby(40 to 60 million) How about making SS a priority

on July 2nd?

 

I don't think Diaz can sign until February. I think he lied about his age.

Here is a link with a little information:

Aledmys Diaz Rumors: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

[Oxtung]

Your right about all of those points but IMO the only explanation for it never happening is the union. It presents as being too owner friendly because it breaks the norm of increasing salaries for the benefit of the organization/ownership financials.

 

I guess I'm just not understanding your point. Front loading doesn't change the value of the contract, it just changes when the money is distributed. For instance if the Twins had signed Greinke (this is just a hypothetical to illustrate my point) they would pay him the same $159M over 6 years. However when he receives that money would be different.

 

[TABLE=width: 500]

Team

2013

14

15

16

17

18

Dodgers

$19M

$26M

$25M

$26M

$25M

$26M

Twins

$40M

$60M

$20M

$13M

$13M

$13M

[/TABLE]

 

The total value of the contracts are the same but when the money is paid is different. If the Twins were looking like non-contenders still they could shop a potential Ace pitcher in 2015 signed at a ridiculously low salary. If they were contenders well now they also have $30-$60 million in payroll they could use to sign other players to push them over the top. It is just maximizing the use of a limited resource.

[johnnydakota]

I don't think Diaz can sign until February. I think he lied about his age.

Here is a link with a little information:

Aledmys Diaz Rumors: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

 

Thank you for the link, I had actually read that , but I was thinking it was only for certain countrys....me bad thanks again

[diehardtwinsfan]

I guess I'm just not understanding your point. Front loading doesn't change the value of the contract, it just changes when the money is distributed. For instance if the Twins had signed Greinke (this is just a hypothetical to illustrate my point) they would pay him the same $159M over 6 years. However when he receives that money would be different.

 

[TABLE=width: 500]

Team

2013

14

15

16

17

18

Dodgers

$19M

$26M

$25M

$26M

$25M

$26M

Twins

$40M

$60M

$20M

$13M

$13M

$13M

[/TABLE]

 

The total value of the contracts are the same but when the money is paid is different. If the Twins were looking like non-contenders still they could shop a potential Ace pitcher in 2015 signed at a ridiculously low salary. If they were contenders well now they also have $30-$60 million in payroll they could use to sign other players to push them over the top. It is just maximizing the use of a limited resource.

 

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you, but what Levi is saying is that for whatever reason, these contracts don't happen very often... and the only explanation is the union.

 

The only front loaded contracts in baseball are the contracts given to draftees and international free agents...

[TheLeviathan]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you, but what Levi is saying is that for whatever reason, these contracts don't happen very often... and the only explanation is the union.

 

The only front loaded contracts in baseball are the contracts given to draftees and international free agents...

 

Exactly, front loading SHOULD make sense for both parties sometimes, but players never sign a contract like that. If there was ever player interest I guarantee you they would happen. My opinion is that as a group the players/agents don't entertain those offers because they don't want to sign something that appears to favor owners (even though we agree it doesn't) and would alter their value later in a contract. (It might make them more easily traded in their waning years or just look insultingly underpaid)

[drjim]

Backloaded contracts served two purposes. It was a relic of the old arb days when value was partially based on the salary of the last season. There is also the concept of future value of money. It is more valuable for the team to have the money collecting interest and then paying later when money is cheaper because of inflation issues.

 

One final point. Paying the majority early and then lower amounts later to be more valuable in a trade is fine, nut that would make potential prospects quite expensive. Might as well cover a portion of the contract at the time of the trade - it would have the same effect.

[BabyJesusBuxton]

You realize that only 6 mlb shortstops are at the .750 level right? And one of those is Peralta, who won't exactly hit the defensive standard that you strive for (and Lowrie and Desmond aren't exactly great defenders either).

 

Florimon would actually rank in the top half if he had enough abs.

 

jokin pointed out the current numbers are slightly higher than 6 but my main point is that there aren't many offensive shortstops out there and very few ever make free agency. I think it is smarter to stick with a very good defensive player who will consistently save runs with his glove.

 

People can argue that an upgrade needs to be made at SS which I agree with. Obviously Florimon is simply a stop gap but with the pitching staff the Twins have it is better to have the glove than the bat IMO.

 

I also just want to add that I agree Florimon needs to bat better. I think if he could bat in the .230-.240 zone and limit his strikeouts under 20 percent he could be of value for a couple years.

[JB_Iowa]

But frontloading should actually be more valuable to the player. He has the money early and can be gain interest (or investment income) on it.

 

Obviously this wouldn't happen often but it is certainly a concept that a team like the Twins (with a low current payroll) should think about.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Again, no one disagrees, but for whatever reason, it doesn't happen.

 

The closest I can think of that might result in a front loaded contract may be for a guy like Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez who is coming in as a Cuban free agent and is reportedly going to receive around 60M. He's an unknown who will be getting his first deal, but it will likely be a major league deal. First deals seem to be the only deals in baseball that have significant singning bonuses.

[Otto von Ballpark]

When I heard Jamey Carroll was at 3B last night, I immediately thought Plouffe was back at SS. That would be interesting, although Florimon is currently better than any of our replacement 3B options.

 

If his defense continues at its current levels, I am fine with Pedro. In fact, I would like to see him start more so they could maybe cut down to one futility infielder, although that is not likely to happen unless they find a trade destination for Carroll.

[TheLeviathan]

But frontloading should actually be more valuable to the player. He has the money early and can be gain interest (or investment income) on it.

 

Obviously this wouldn't happen often but it is certainly a concept that a team like the Twins (with a low current payroll) should think about.

 

You are right...players would financially benefit from this, but it doesn't happen. Let me be clear, no one is suggesting front loading makes no sense. It absolutely makes sense....but it NEVER happens in baseball. It's not an option on the table. Let me try one more way to explain my theory why:

 

The four major sports all have CBAs between owners and players. If we were to rank them by how much influence players have on the salary/contract status, I think it is pretty clearly: 1. MLB (by a large margin). 2. NBA 3. NHL 4. NFL (by a large margin last)

 

so where do frontloaded contracts happen? A lot in the NFL by way of restructures and signing bonuses and in the NHL. (See Parise, Suter, and Hossa among many others). NBA and MLB? Never happens. This is a player driven phenomena IMO.

[pierre75275]

What about a package for Jurikson Profar involving Perkins.