Vikings Offseason Thread

[Vanimal46]

33 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I don’t know, why?

He was a rookie last year and firmly in the top 10 of most analysts’ top QB list. 

[Aggies7]

Just now, Vanimal46 said:

He was a rookie last year and firmly in the top 10 of most analysts’ top QB list. 

The exception that proves the rule. You could name 10 top ten busts off the top of your head.

[Vanimal46]

36 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

It might. 

Gee, I wonder if the Vikings take a QB in this draft at some time. Odds are pretty high. If Darnold signs here he won’t play a lot of games unless he becomes a top 10 QB overnight 

[Vanimal46]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

The exception that proves the rule. You could name 10 top ten busts off the top of your head.

Where do you rank Trevor Lawrence? Tua? Herbert? Burrow? Allen? 

[Vanimal46]

I wonder what all of those QBs I named have in common? Couldn’t possibly be top 10 draft picks in the last 4 years right?

[Aggies7]

29 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

I wonder what all of those QBs I named have in common? Couldn’t possibly be top 10 draft picks in the last 4 years right?

Where do you rank Bryce Young, Anthony Richardson, Zach Wilson, Trey lance, Justin fields (11), Sam darnold, Jose Rosen and Daniel jones?

Oh, and baker mayfield, who finally arrived in year 6.

 

[Aggies7]

20 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Where do you rank Trevor Lawrence? Tua? Herbert? Burrow? Allen? 

Again, better chance of a top ten not working out than a top ten success. And we aren’t picking top ten anyway unless we trade up and hamstring further drafting down the road while “in a rebuild”

[Aggies7]

All I’m saying is, I think this move sets the Vikings up for a reach/overpay but with a lower chance of success. A placeholder type should be at least average or you’ll be tossing that new draft pick in in week 10.

[Vanimal46]

32 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Again, better chance of a top ten not working out than a top ten success. And we aren’t picking top ten anyway unless we trade up and hamstring further drafting down the road while “in a rebuild”

Just named 6 out of 15 top ten picks in the last 6 years and they all seem to be top 10 consensus QBs. Would you like to judge the 15 picks by a different metric?

[Vanimal46]

47 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Where do you rank Bryce Young, Anthony Richardson, Zach Wilson, Trey lance, Justin fields (11), Sam darnold, Jose Rosen and Daniel jones?

Oh, and baker mayfield, who finally arrived in year 6.

 

Where do you think you’re going to find a top 10 QB? I wonder if it’s in the top 10 of a draft… History says yes. 

[Mike Sixel]

13 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

All I’m saying is, I think this move sets the Vikings up for a reach/overpay but with a lower chance of success. A placeholder type should be at least average or you’ll be tossing that new draft pick in in week 10.

so what does any of that have to do with the placeholder they sign? You wanted Kirk gone, he's gone. What do you expect now?

"at least average" for the placeholder? So, a top 15-20 QB overall? That's your expectation of a backup?

[Aggies7]

6 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Just named 6 out of 15 top ten picks in the last 6 years and they all seem to be top 10 consensus QBs. Would you like to judge the 15 picks by a different metric?

Tell me about the 8 top 10 guys you didn’t mention. I’ll do it for you:

Bryce Young: 73 passer rating 

Anthony Richardson: played 4 games before missing the season 

Zach Wilson: backup, maybe out of league this year

Trey Lance: backup

Daniel Jones: average at absolute best

Mayfield: almost out of league before his best season

Sam Darnold: yuck

josh Rosen: out of league

 

[Aggies7]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

so what does any of that have to do with the placeholder they sign? You wanted Kirk gone, he's gone. What do you expect now?

"at least average" for the placeholder? So, a top 15-20 QB overall? That's your expectation of a backup?

I didn’t want him gone. 
 

Sorry, the word should have been competent. Not average. Is darnold competent, judging by his career?

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

I didn’t want him gone. 
 

Sorry, the word should have been competent. Not average. Is darnold competent, judging by his career?

My bad, thought you were on that train. Well, he's gone now.....so I'm not sure what you expect. You want a good FA QB (good luck) and I have no idea your point on drafting one. 

It's done. He's gone. They'll sign a mediocre backup and draft a guy they want to start in 4-10 games or so. 

[Vanimal46]

3 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Tell me about the 8 top 10 guys you didn’t mention. I’ll do it for you:

Bryce Young: 73 passer rating 

Anthony Richardson: played 4 games before missing the season 

Zach Wilson: backup, maybe out of league this year

Trey Lance: backup

Daniel Jones: average at absolute best

Mayfield: almost out of league before his best season

Sam Darnold: yuck

josh Rosen: out of league

 

Never said there weren’t busts in the top 10. Where are your best odds of finding a top 10 QB? Likely in the top 10 of the draft. 

[Aggies7]

6 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Where do you think you’re going to find a top 10 QB? I wonder if it’s in the top 10 of a draft… History says yes. 

I mean to be fair, you brought up the #2 pick in last year’s draft as the proof that rookie quarterbacks work out. When the #1 pick in the same class was god-awful

[Aggies7]

Just now, Vanimal46 said:

Never said there weren’t busts in the top 10. Where are your best odds of finding a top 10 QB? Likely in the top 10 of the draft. 

Judging by the last 5-6 years, the odds are more likely that you’ll get a middling at best quarterback in the first ten picks as you will one ranked in the top 10 of the league.

[Vanimal46]

2 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Judging by the last 5-6 years, the odds are more likely that you’ll get a middling at best quarterback in the first ten picks as you will one ranked in the top 10 of the league.

Not even close to true. 

Edit: to make this a better debate, compared to what? If a team is drafting a QB in the top ten the odds of them working out are better than a late 1st round pick, and better than a 2nd round pick. Etc. etc. 

[Aggies7]

10 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Not even close to true. 

But it is though. I mean, I don’t know what arbitrary year you want to start from, but especially lately as teams have overreached at the draft, there are a whoollle bunch of QBs taken top ten who have not sniffed the top 1/3 best guys in the league. Ever. Dont forget, Mitch trubisky was taken 2nd OVERALL in 2017. That was the year before Mayfield Darnold and Josh Rosen all went top 10! 

http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/positions/qb

[Aggies7]

10 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

My bad, thought you were on that train. Well, he's gone now.....so I'm not sure what you expect. You want a good FA QB (good luck) and I have no idea your point on drafting one. 

It's done. He's gone. They'll sign a mediocre backup and draft a guy they want to start in 4-10 games or so. 

I don’t want the next (?) years to be an open sewer. And they probably will be now. 

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

Apparently they expect a rookie QB to come in and replace the production of a top ten QB in a year or two.

Because the only place Darnold could hold is the page in the playbook. His numbers are bad bad. Have a season or two of guys throwing hospital passes to JJ and he’ll be gone before you could dance the griddy. So essentially you’re really drafting a guy would play very soon.

Vikings are in a brutal spot right now. Not high enough in the draft to get the more talented quarterbacks, won’t get higher without trading up (counterintuitive if in a “rebuild”), and the lack of a viable competent “placeholder”

Strap in folks it’s going to get ugly.

I agree, the Vikings are in a brutal spot right now, which is why a bunch of us were hoping they'd play Hall and the young guys to  develop, with the side benefit of having a better draft picks this year. This team would be picking 6th with one more loss this season. Would anyone other than the players who were benched care or remember had they lost to the Saints, Falcons or Raiders after Kirk went down? 2022's 13-3 record might end up being one of the five worst things that ever happened to this franchise. They'd be in so much better of a situation had they been ready to rebuild last year and traded Cousins, Hunter and Harrison Smith.

But who cares if the vet is Darnold, or Tyler Heinicke or Russell Wilson or Kirk Cousins if this team can't do better than winning one playoff game a decade. The only option, now and even when they signed Cousins the first time, was to draft and develop an initially cheap franchise QB who has the potential to drag this club to the Super Bowl. Most of us don't care if they weasel into the playoffs just to get smoked early.

[Parfigliano]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

Where do you rank Bryce Young, Anthony Richardson, Zach Wilson, Trey lance, Justin fields (11), Sam darnold, Jose Rosen and Daniel jones?

Oh, and baker mayfield, who finally arrived in year 6.

 

Zach Wilson stinks now, stunk last year, and will stink worse in the future.  He's a rotting fish.

[nicksaviking]

11 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I don’t want the next (?) years to be an open sewer. And they probably will be now. 

So what are you hopping for? Mediocrity and never taking a chance at winning it all? I'll take the 10-20% chance at being great with a high chance at being bad over zero chance at ever being great. If you don't keep locking yourself into a QB who can't do it, you can keep trying until you get it right.

[Aggies7]

22 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Not even close to true. 

Edit: to make this a better debate, compared to what? If a team is drafting a QB in the top ten the odds of them working out are better than a late 1st round pick, and better than a 2nd round pick. Etc. etc. 

I only see 3 guys taken 20-32 in round 1 (Lamar Jackson, Jordan love, Kenny Pickett). So, fewer top 10 guys by numbers but better odds of that makes sense? I’m too tired to look at round 2 but I doubt there were many hits

[Aggies7]

9 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

I agree, the Vikings are in a brutal spot right now, which is why a bunch of us were hoping they'd play Hall and the young guys to  develop, with the side benefit of having a better draft picks this year. This team would be picking 6th with one more loss this season. Would anyone other than the players who were benched care or remember had they lost to the Saints, Falcons or Raiders after Kirk went down? 2022's 13-3 record might end up being one of the five worst things that ever happened to this franchise. They'd be in so much better of a situation had they been ready to rebuild last year and traded Cousins, Hunter and Harrison Smith.

But who cares if the vet is Darnold, or Tyler Heinicke or Russell Wilson or Kirk Cousins if this team can't do better than winning one playoff game a decade. The only option, now and even when they signed Cousins the first time, was to draft and develop an initially cheap franchise QB who has the potential to drag this club to the Super Bowl. Most of us don't care if they weasel into the playoffs just to get smoked early.

I agree that the 13-3 season was essentially worthless because they couldn’t even win one lousy game.

I also thought they could have tried trading cousins when they were 1-4 (maybe they did?). I brought it up here but he probably wouldn’t have accepted a trade anyway.

Hey we’re all forgetting about Nik Mullens. For all the flaming he got, I would take him over Darnold or any of those other guys you mentioned. In a second. I think one thing last year taught us is that there’s a maximum a QB can suck before he becomes dangerous. Hall was there already. Darnold might not be, I don’t know 

[nicksaviking]

17 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I agree that the 13-3 season was essentially worthless because they couldn’t even win one lousy game.

I also thought they could have tried trading cousins when they were 1-4 (maybe they did?). I brought it up here but he probably wouldn’t have accepted a trade anyway.

Hey we’re all forgetting about Nik Mullens. For all the flaming he got, I would take him over Darnold or any of those other guys you mentioned. In a second.

Yeah, I don't want Mullens, but I don't see a difference between him and most of the other guys out there. I really could care less about the veteran that will be here. Either they draft a good one this year, or they try again in the next two. Nobody available, Cousins, Mayfield, Wilson and Fields included, are likely to lead anyone to the Super Bowl unless they go the SF route and have an elite defense. Sorry Greenard, Van Ginkel and Cashman, I'm happy to have you, but you ain't Bosa, Warner and Greenlaw. Hmm, though phonetically, Greenard and Greenlaw are pretty close.

[Aggies7]

5 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Yeah, I don't want Mullens, but I don't see a difference between him and most of the other guys out there. I really could care less about the veteran that will be here. Either they draft a good one this year, or they they try again in the next two. Nobody available, Cousins, Mayfield, Wilson and Fields included, are likely to lead anyone to the Super Bowl unless they go the SF route and have an elite defense. Sorry Greenard, Van Ginkel and Cashman, I'm happy to have you, but you ain't Bosa, Warner and Greenlaw. Hmm, though phonetically, Greenard and Greenlaw are pretty close.

Sounds like a law firm 

[Mike Sixel]

15 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I only see 3 guys taken 20-32 in round 1 (Lamar Jackson, Jordan love, Kenny Pickett). So, fewer top 10 guys by numbers but better odds of that makes sense? I’m too tired to look at round 2 but I doubt there were many hits

That's because most of the QBs are already taken before that.... Or taken much later. 

No one wants the team to be awful, but that's not the choice. The choice is taking a QB early by trading up, or taking Nix or Penix, or the other guy in round two at some point, likely trading up. Those are the choices. 

[Aggies7]

9 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

That's because most of the QBs are already taken before that.... Or taken much later. 

No one wants the team to be awful, but that's not the choice. The choice is taking a QB early by trading up, or taking Nix or Penix, or the other guy in round two at some point, likely trading up. Those are the choices. 

Trade up and waste picks for a team on a rebuild. Or draft one of the fringe talents and force him in earlier than he should be in when Sam Darnold or whoever is completely horrendous. Remember, some fans can wait a couple years for things to work out. The GM and front office have their jobs on the line and Kwesi doesn’t exactly have a long leash. I worry the Vikings are setting themselves up for the classic continuous rebuild, hoping to hit on a quarterback through the draft. As tenuous as it can be to always use free agency to find a quarterback, at least you know what you have.

Not an enviable situation.

[gunnarthor]

So I'll be the voice of optimism. Somehow KOC got two 400+ passing games out of Mulllins (IIRC) against a NFC Championship team. So I think there is a type of QB is is comfortable coaching up. And Mayfield credited the 49ers staff a lot for fixing what was broken in Cleveland and especially Carolina. Darnold sucked with the Jets and Panthers but maybe they can turn him into serviceable QB. Keep in mind that Dobbs was 19th in the league last year in QBR. Not a lot of good QBs right now.

Edit - my brain screwup - I thought Mayfield was with SF, not the Rams. Ignore this post.