The Twins need to follow the Guardians' blueprint

[Rik19753]

This trade deadline, the Guardians have traded Amed Rosario and Aaron Civale, two solid but underwhelming regulars. What they got in return was playing time for their young players and a consensus top 50 prospect in Kyle Manzardo.

This is exactly what the Twins should be doing IMO. When you think about it, Amed Rosario was the Guardians' version of Max Kepler. Both are solid bets to put up around 2.0 WAR, which is the definition of average. Both have single flaws in their game that they just can't improve upon (Rosario with his defense, Kepler with his batted ball tendencies). And the most important part is, both are blocking their respective teams' prospects from getting playing time.

The difference is, the Guardians' took the route of ditching said player the first chance they got. And to take a flier on a washed-up pitcher, no less (no offense Thor). The Twins have hung onto Kepler like a baby clinging to their blanket, and the argument that Wallner is not ready to overtake him is getting weaker every day he plays. 

The Twins can probably still get something for Kepler now that he's hot. The time to trade him is now.

As for Civale, he had two years of control left and the replacement for him is not as clear as Rosario. Losing him opens a hole in the rotation that is already riddled with injuries, so I have no doubt that if they were thinking about just this year, they would much rather have him than not. Nonetheless, the Guardians thought that he was unspectacular enough that they would rather acquire a top prospect and bank on other players being capable enough to fill the gap.

The parallel I draw from this is Jorge Polanco.

Polanco is one of my favorite players, so it pains me to say this, but it's time to part ways with him while he still has some value. I think he could still net us a top 100 prospect easily with his team-friendly options and the dearth of bats in this year's market. While losing Polanco from the lineup this year stings, this team is not good enough to justify hanging on to Polanco just for the minor upgrade he provides from Solano/Farmer. As for the future, the combination of Julien, Royce, Lee and maybe guys like Severino and Miranda should be more than enough to fill in for him, both on the field at 2B/3B and from an offensive contribution standpoint. 

The Twins' tendency of clinging on to veterans has hampered the team. It's time to retool and give the young guys a chance. Honestly, with how the teams has been playing, banking on a prospect carrying your team to and through the playoffs (a la Arozarena or Soto) might actually be the move that maximizes your chances of winning the World Series.

[ICTwin25]

By follow the blueprint you mean hire a Top 3 Manager?

[SpicyGarvSauce]

13 hours ago, ICTwin25 said:

By follow the blueprint you mean hire a Top 3 Manager?

And have a competent FO.

[Brock Beauchamp]

God no, if the Twins start operating like the auction houses that are the Rays and Guardians, I'll just walk away. This is a spectator sport and cheering SOLELY for laundry does not interest me much.

I despise the way the Guardians and Rays do business.

[SpicyGarvSauce]

27 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

God no, if the Twins start operating like the auction houses that are the Rays and Guardians, I'll just walk away. This is a spectator sport and cheering SOLELY for laundry does not interest me much.

I despise the way the Guardians and Rays do business.

Yeah, consistently winning games is hard to watch.

[Brock Beauchamp]

3 minutes ago, SpicyGarvSauce said:

Yeah, consistently winning games is hard to watch.

Yes, because the only goal worth pursuing is winning. It doesn't ever involve fan interactions, love of the game and players, or any of that other squishy stuff.

Which is why the Rays and Guardians perennially lead the league in attendance. Fans LOVE the way they operate, it hits them right in the feels.

[SpicyGarvSauce]

1 minute ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Yes, because the only goal worth pursuing is winning. It doesn't ever involve fan interactions, love of the game and players, or any of that other squishy stuff.

Which is why the Rays and Guardians perennially lead the league in attendance. Fans LOVE the way they operate, it hits them right in the feels.

My apologies - I'd much rather see the team I root for be a consistent winner than give a rip about interacting with fans, what bobble head or NFT the team has of a player, etc.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Just now, SpicyGarvSauce said:

My apologies - I'd much rather see the team I root for be a consistent winner than give a rip about interacting with fans, what bobble head or NFT the team has of a player, etc.

Yes, because bobbleheads and NFTs are definitely what I was talking about.

[SpicyGarvSauce]

Just now, Brock Beauchamp said:

Yes, because bobbleheads and NFTs are definitely what I was talking about.

You said "squishy stuff."

Be specific. Don't leave it up for interpretation if you don't want people to assume.

[SpicyGarvSauce]

And the reason why the Rays don't have more fans is because their stadium is a dump. Don't act as if they don't do some of the "squishy stuff" that you think matters to fans who care most about their favorite team winning.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, SpicyGarvSauce said:

You said "squishy stuff."

Be specific. Don't leave it up for interpretation if you don't want people to assume.

NFTs, notoriously linked to their squishiness.

[Brock Beauchamp]

4 minutes ago, SpicyGarvSauce said:

And the reason why the Rays don't have more fans is because their stadium is a dump. Don't act as if they don't do some of the "squishy stuff" that you think matters to fans who care most about their favorite team winning.

I notice you left Cleveland's not-good attendance out of this statement.

Yes, the Rays' stadium sucks. If you think that's their only problem, you're not really paying attention. There is a distinct downside to operating as they do and that's fan apathy due to a revolving door of players and cheap ownership. Traits both the Guardians and Rays share in abundance.

[SpicyGarvSauce]

Just now, Brock Beauchamp said:

I notice you left Cleveland's not-good attendance out of this statement.

Yes, the Rays' stadium sucks. If you think that's their only problem, you're not really paying attention. There is a distinct downside to operating as they do and that's fan apathy due to a revolving door of players and cheap ownership.

You do realize that this season, the Twins are averaging just a touch over 1K more fans than Cleveland right?

If you consider Cleveland as having "not-good" attendance, how would you classify the Twins?

[SpicyGarvSauce]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance

SOURCE!

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 minutes ago, SpicyGarvSauce said:

You do realize that this season, the Twins are averaging just a touch over 1K more fans than Cleveland right?

If you consider Cleveland as having "not-good" attendance, how would you classify the Twins?

Cleveland won the division and went to the postseason last year. The vast majority of tickets sold in a season are sold before the first pitch on Opening Day.

[SpicyGarvSauce]

2 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Cleveland won the division and went to the postseason last year. The vast majority of tickets sold in a season are sold before the first pitch on Opening Day.

So you are saying that people bought tickets because Cleveland won last year.

Got it.

So, what is your argument again?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Just now, SpicyGarvSauce said:

So you are saying that people bought tickets because Cleveland won last year.

Got it.

So, what is your argument again?

My argument is that Minnesota is beating Cleveland in attendance when Cleveland should be well ahead of Minnesota based on 2022 results. Ticket sales lag behind one season, it's been documented and researched more times than I can count.

Cleveland's attendance sucks compared to their on-field performance and it has for years.

Go look at Brewers attendance some time. They're similarly competitive to Cleveland and play in an even smaller market. But they don't run their franchise like an auction house.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

? 
 I don’t know how you can compare Cleveland and Tampa Bay. They are both smart? Sure that works

Clevaland has been in MLB for 100 years, and Tampa Bay is the youngest MLB franchise that literally had no fan base and no money when their team began playing, still have few fans and little money, and adapted accordingly. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

18 minutes ago, SpicyGarvSauce said:

My apologies - I'd much rather see the team I root for be a consistent winner than give a rip about interacting with fans, what bobble head or NFT the team has of a player, etc.

If none of the squishy stuff matters, why not root for Cleveland or Tampa? What keeps you coming back to watch the Twins? Why not just root for the best team in baseball every year. Why not be a mercenary?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

2 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

If none of the squishy stuff matters, why not root for Cleveland or Tampa? What keeps you coming back to watch the Twins? Why not just root for the best team in baseball every year. Why not be a mercenary?

This Twins front office doesn’t do squishy stuff.

If this is up for debate, then I would start by asking why they traded away Arraez, a fan favorite. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

9 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

This Twins front office doesn’t do squishy stuff.

If this is up for debate, then I would start by asking why they traded away Arraez, a fan favorite. 

They also worked hard to keep Buxton and Correa, amongst others (the 2019 signings). Just because they don't only do squishy stuff doesn't invalidate when they do factor in long-term player contracts. They're a mid-market team, they can't just keep everybody.

[SpicyGarvSauce]

1 hour ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

If none of the squishy stuff matters, why not root for Cleveland or Tampa? What keeps you coming back to watch the Twins? Why not just root for the best team in baseball every year. Why not be a mercenary?

Great take.

[Danchat]

I'd be down for the Cleveland / Tampa approach if it led to the results that Tampa gets, but with our current FO, heck no. Though I'd love to see what Tampa could do if they had the salary that the Twins do.

[Schmoeman5]

2 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

They also worked hard to keep Buxton and Correa, amongst others (the 2019 signings). Just because they don't only do squishy stuff doesn't invalidate when they do factor in long-term player contracts. They're a mid-market team, they can't just keep everybody.

Looks like they overpaid on the 2 guys mentioned. 1 might only DH for the rest of his career. And the other who fell back in their lap. Worked hard? Buxton didn't have tons of potential suitors or he'd have tested the market. And I'll take Tampa Bays and Clevelands way of running a franchise. If the Twins got those results their avg attendance would skyrocket. Look how their attendance is now with a so so team.

[Mike Sixel]

5 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Yes, because the only goal worth pursuing is winning. It doesn't ever involve fan interactions, love of the game and players, or any of that other squishy stuff.

Which is why the Rays and Guardians perennially lead the league in attendance. Fans LOVE the way they operate, it hits them right in the feels.

They traded away Kepler and Varland, basically, when Varland was hot. They didn't deal CC or Ryan or Lewis or Jeffers or Julien . This is exactly what the twins should do. Make room for the younger, better, players. 

[Mike Sixel]

5 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Yes, because the only goal worth pursuing is winning. It doesn't ever involve fan interactions, love of the game and players, or any of that other squishy stuff.

Which is why the Rays and Guardians perennially lead the league in attendance. Fans LOVE the way they operate, it hits them right in the feels.

You've been begging this team to trade Kepler..... And DFA Gallo. Haven't you?

[Brock Beauchamp]

30 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They traded away Kepler and Varland, basically, when Varland was hot. They didn't deal CC or Ryan or Lewis or Jeffers or Julien . This is exactly what the twins should do. Make room for the younger, better, players. 

Aaron Civale is Louie Varland? I'll strongly disagree about that.

And it's one thing to trade away a player, it's something else to trade away a player during a divisional race and only getting a minor leaguer in return.

Rumor has it Cleveland is now looking to trade for a starter. It's a bad look to fans.

[Brock Beauchamp]

26 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

You've been begging this team to trade Kepler..... And DFA Gallo. Haven't you?

It's time to move on from Kepler, he's not very good anymore.

Not sure what Gallo has to do with this conversation, he was a one-year FA signing.

[Major League Ready]

7 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

God no, if the Twins start operating like the auction houses that are the Rays and Guardians, I'll just walk away. This is a spectator sport and cheering SOLELY for laundry does not interest me much.

I despise the way the Guardians and Rays do business.

The Guardians have not been a revolving door.  They have done a great job of getting something back for guys they don’t feel they can resign.  Would you have preferred one more year of Clevinger instead of 5 years of Naylor and 6 years of Cantrill?   Clevinger was worth .4 WAR to SanDiego.

Would you have preferred one more year of Kluber of 6 years of Clause?  Kluber contributed one IP for Texas.
One year of Cliff Lee or 6 years of Carlos Corrasco.
One year of Lindor or 6 years of Gimenez and Rosario.  Gimenez produced 6.1 WAR his 1st full season.  Lindor produced 4.1 WAR the season they traded away.  Now they are getting additional assets for Rosario.
One year of Tony Sipp or 5 years of Bryan Shaw.
There are other examples but this will do.  Sign me up for this “revolving door” please.