Wolfson: DFA'd Borbon a possibility

[Mr. Brooks]

I have no problem with Hicks earning the starting job. I think 30 AB's is a bit quick to send him down - if he's at 60-70 AB's and no sign of things trending in a positive direction you send him down to AAA and let him get some confidence back. You can live with a rookie hitting .200 and doing some other things to help the club NOT with a guy hitting .050.

 

A LH/RH duo of Mastro/Borbon would be good enough IMO to carry us through the All-Star break and see where we are at that point.

 

It was only a 35 AB sample size in ST that "earned" him the job.

I'm fine with the argument that he deserves more time, but be consistent if you are going to use sample size as a reason.

[nicksaviking]

Borbon works better for what the Twins would look for from that spot on the roster than Boggs. As a defensive replacement or pinch runner, it's Borbon by a mile.

[Kwak]

2013 was always a throw-away season. Play the newcomers and have them develop as best as they can. Twins lose, lose a great deal?--So what? The die was cast when the executivew committee went down the slash-and-burn road. Therefore, continue down this road and see what happens.

Fundamental questions need to be answered--and folks it isn't about the players--it's about those who select, train and utilize the players. There has been precious little turnover in management. They not only use the same principles and guidelines that were used before--they proslytize them. OK. I say "make them work"--or get out!

Hicks. I remember when he was drafted and it was proclaimed what a gifted (5-tools remember?) athlete--he coulda been a pitcher! Great! The next season I read he was in extended spring training to teach him how to hit. What? He can't hit? This after selecting him 1st round and proclaiming from the mountain tops about "his tools"? I wondered at the time (and still do now) was he mis-assessed (over-valued) or is this an example of making a square peg fit in a round hole? Should Hicks have remained (and perhaps return to) RH batting only? Considering Hicks was developed to be a "lead-off" batter (high OBP) type guy, his swing seems like it's much more geared to be a middle-of-the-order type hitter, who would enhance his OBP by a combination of high SLG and keen-eye-patience.

 

To sum up, Hicks isn't the problem--he's a symptom of the problem. Borbon isn't the answer--he's just a blankee for some to grab when times get rough. If/when Hicks is demoted (and barring a Plouffe-miracle) he will be demoted, the CF answer is Mastroianni. Last, for all of you jumping on the "prospect bandwagon" that was so skillfully spun this Spring, let Hick's struggles serve as a warning that 2014 or even 2015 may not be wonderful.

[ashbury]

Get what you're saying, but disagree, brother. If the Twins intentionally rolled the dice and hoped Hicks would run with a chance at a job he may well not be ready for, well, then they should have seen enough.

 

On the other hand, if they thought that despite his contact issues and lack of AAA experience that he absolutely would be ready, then he stays until they see enough evidence to contradict their belief.

 

Yeah, I think we're close to saying the same thing, if I clarify that the *factors* that went into the past decision may still be there and still apply to the next decision, but the nature of the past decision itself ("too early") is no longer relevant. If they were sure he was ready then, and see nothing fundamentally different now, it's the "now" that matters; if they were just rolling the dice then, and he looks to them now as completely overmatched, again it's the "now" that will decide it.

 

And if they were rolling dice then, and can't think of better than to roll dice now, then they should just save their money and fire the decision makers and hire me for a dollar, and I'll probably give them change in return.

[jokin]

So it is not easy to find an obvious target? Still curious as to what AAAA /veteran player that was still out there after the Revere trade you thought they should have picked up. Saying they should have picked up someone as a plan B is easy, stating a reasonable response is not obvious.

 

Uhh, I already stated that the Twins should have pursued Bourn on a one-year deal. Bargain bin options with at least some MLB experience were plentiful, as well. Andres Torres and Nyjer Morgan would have been better than adequate placeholder options should Plan A have to be temporarily shelved (as now appears apparent). Pods is still waiting for a call and would likely play for the veteran minimum. It's not that difficult...really...

[Riverbrian]

2013 was always a throw-away season. Play the newcomers and have them develop as best as they can. Twins lose, lose a great deal?--So what? The die was cast when the executivew committee went down the slash-and-burn road. Therefore, continue down this road and see what happens.

Fundamental questions need to be answered--and folks it isn't about the players--it's about those who select, train and utilize the players. There has been precious little turnover in management. They not only use the same principles and guidelines that were used before--they proslytize them. OK. I say "make them work"--or get out!

Hicks. I remember when he was drafted and it was proclaimed what a gifted (5-tools remember?) athlete--he coulda been a pitcher! Great! The next season I read he was in extended spring training to teach him how to hit. What? He can't hit? This after selecting him 1st round and proclaiming from the mountain tops about "his tools"? I wondered at the time (and still do now) was he mis-assessed (over-valued) or is this an example of making a square peg fit in a round hole? Should Hicks have remained (and perhaps return to) RH batting only? Considering Hicks was developed to be a "lead-off" batter (high OBP) type guy, his swing seems like it's much more geared to be a middle-of-the-order type hitter, who would enhance his OBP by a combination of high SLG and keen-eye-patience.

 

To sum up, Hicks isn't the problem--he's a symptom of the problem. Borbon isn't the answer--he's just a blankee for some to grab when times get rough. If/when Hicks is demoted (and barring a Plouffe-miracle) he will be demoted, the CF answer is Mastroianni. Last, for all of you jumping on the "prospect bandwagon" that was so skillfully spun this Spring, let Hick's struggles serve as a warning that 2014 or even 2015 may not be wonderful.

 

I don't think the Twins view 2013 as a throwaway season. They would have to view it as a challenging season but I don't think they will say... the season doesn't matter cuz we are going to suck anyway.

 

I don't know what to do with Hicks... 35 at bats is not remotely close enough to make an assessment on anyone and Jason Heyward is hitting almost as bad after the same amount of at bats and I doubt they will be sending him down to Gwinnett.

 

The only thing that goes thru my mind is how overmatched he appears thus far and it's hard to shake that as each game goes in the books.

 

I guess I just wanted to say... I don't think the Twins are ready to punt 2013 and the decision they have to make with Hicks shouldn't be viewed from that standpoint.

[jokin]

I don't think the Twins view 2013 as a throwaway season. They would have to view it as a challenging season but I don't think they will say... the season doesn't matter cuz we are going to suck anyway.

 

I don't know what to do with Hicks... 35 at bats is not remotely close enough to make an assessment on anyone and Jason Heyward is hitting almost as bad after the same amount of at bats and I doubt they will be sending him down to Gwinnett.

 

The only thing that goes thru my mind is how overmatched he appears thus far and it's hard to shake that as each game goes in the books.

 

I guess I just wanted to say... I don't think the Twins are ready to punt 2013 and the decision they have to make with Hicks shouldn't be viewed from that standpoint.

 

A lot of the challenges were self-imposed.

 

I haven't seen Heyward bat this year, but I don't see how it's possible that he has worse at bats than Aaron has suffered through thus far. I know it's puzzling to us at the level of ineptitude exhibited, but the Twins organization has plenty of experience with Hicks and helping his demonstrated slow adjustment to each incremental increase in level of play- they'll likely do with him what's worked with him in the past.

 

We are in general agreement about the situation, I just disagree about the Twins being "ready to punt" the season away, the offseason proved they already punted on 2nd down.

[ashbury]

Uhh, I already stated that the Twins should have pursued Bourn on a one-year deal.

 

To which Mr. Bourn replies, "um, really? Because there's a 4 year $48M offer plus an option year on the table from one of your division rivals...". Hard to imagine any team, much less the Twins, offering dollars-enough early-enough to make a one-year deal appealing even in a slow market.

[Riverbrian]

A lot of the challenges were self-imposed.

 

I haven't seen Heyward bat this year, but I don't see how it's possible that he has worse at bats than Aaron has suffered through thus far. I know it's puzzling to us at the level of ineptitude exhibited, but the Twins organization has plenty of experience with Hicks and helping his demonstrated slow adjustment to each incremental increase in level of play- they'll likely do with him what's worked with him in the past.

 

We are in general agreement about the situation, I just disagree about the Twins being "ready to punt" the season away, the offseason proved they already punted on 2nd down.

 

On Hicks we probably do... On the punting... Not so much. They ain't planning a parade route and buying confetti yet but I think they expect the team to be competitive and will try to fix a problem if they can.

 

They just may not fix it the way you or I would.

[jokin]

To which Mr. Bourn replies, "um, really? Because there's a 4 year $48M offer plus an option year on the table from one of your division rivals...". Hard to imagine any team, much less the Twins, offering dollars-enough early-enough to make a one-year deal appealing even in a slow market.

 

But my wish list for Bourn formed in December, waaay before he signed in mid-February. Remember when poor Bourn and Lohse were Borastically-pitiful-orphans-in-the-storm? Good times.

 

Would Boras have taken a one-year $14-15M deal earlier during the FA poker game? He's done it in the past. As previously noted (frequently), I'm a big fan of signing actual talent in FA, short-term- solves short-term problems and gives you more quality options.

[Guest USAFChief]

But my wish list for Bourn formed in December, waaay before he signed in mid-February. Remember when poor Bourn and Lohse were Borastically-pitiful-orphans-in-the-storm? Good times.

 

Would Boras have taken a one-year $14-15M deal earlier during the FA poker game? He's done it in the past. As previously noted (frequently), I'm a big fan of signing actual talent in FA, short-term- solves short-term problems and gives you more quality options.

There is zero possibility that a player (or agent) who ends up getting 4/$48 in February would have taken 1/$15 in December. Zero. For that to happen, both the player and agent would have had to have been 3 yrs and $31M off in their estimates of what they might get, and would have had no conversations with GMs. As it turns out, neither Bourn nor Lohse were "Borastically pitiful orphans" at all. Both just had to listen to their agent when he told them not to panic. There were (and are) FA CF options. Bourne on a one year deal never was realistic.

[The Wise One]

Uhh, I already stated that the Twins should have pursued Bourn on a one-year deal. Bargain bin options with at least some MLB experience were plentiful, as well. Andres Torres and Nyjer Morgan would have been better than adequate placeholder options should Plan A have to be temporarily shelved (as now appears apparent). Pods is still waiting for a call and would likely play for the veteran minimum. It's not that difficult...really...

 

Bourn on a one year contract? There ought to be a rule that you can't post pure fantasy. Bourn would have signed a one year contract for 40 million.

[jokin]

Bourn on a one year contract? There ought to be a rule that you can't post pure fantasy. Bourn would have signed a one year contract for 40 million.

 

Speaking of fantasy, you might want to get out a little bit more. There were multiple stories about the possibility of Boras and Bourn not getting what they wanted and settling for a one-year deal- believe it or not, they happen rather frequently.

[ashbury]

There is zero possibility that a player (or agent) who ends up getting 4/$48 in February would have taken 1/$15 in December. Zero.

 

You said it better than I did. 4/$48 is just the evidence at the end. Almost certainly there were very informal conversations, say 3/$30, that were politely put on hold pending a more serious offer. Maybe, just maybe, 1/$20 would have been listened to; but the Twins would not be the team making that offer. If they liked someone with Bourn's skills that much for that price, then they would have liked Revere's skills at his lower price enough to not have traded him away.

[jokin]

There is zero possibility that a player (or agent) who ends up getting 4/$48 in February would have taken 1/$15 in December. Zero. For that to happen, both the player and agent would have had to have been 3 yrs and $31M off in their estimates of what they might get, and would have had no conversations with GMs. As it turns out, neither Bourn nor Lohse were "Borastically pitiful orphans" at all. Both just had to listen to their agent when he told them not to panic. There were (and are) FA CF options. Bourne on a one year deal never was realistic.

 

Perhaps not, but we'll never know for sure, it's tough when everyone's playing poker and you never get to see what was in each player's hand after the fact.

 

Here is an example of what was going on though, last December:

 

"Did Michael Bourn and Scott Boras Wait Too Long?

 

......bloggers like Martin Gandy of Talking Chop, the SBNation Braves blog, are starting to wonder whether Bourn will need to take a one-year offer and wait ’til next year for his payday. So did Bourn wait too long? Did Scott Boras, gasp!, make a mistake?"

 

As I stated, it's happened before, and I for one, think it's worth it to throw an offer in at the best talent out there, you never know who might blink and then bite-

[jokin]

You said it better than I did. 4/$48 is just the evidence at the end. Almost certainly there were very informal conversations, say 3/$30, that were politely put on hold pending a more serious offer. Maybe, just maybe, 1/$20 would have been listened to; but the Twins would not be the team making that offer. If they liked someone with Bourn's skills that much for that price, then they would have liked Revere's skills at his lower price enough to not have traded him away.

 

It might have taken $20M, as I said, we'll never know for sure- and $20M would have been very absurd.

 

But you never know about a game of poker, and if the Twins could have landed Bourn and then flipped him for a decent prospect, I think it would have been money well spent.

[Guest USAFChief]

Speaking of fantasy, you might want to get out a little bit more. There were multiple stories about the possibility of Boras and Bourn not getting what they wanted and settling for a one-year deal- believe it or not, they happen rather frequently.

First rule of holes: when you're in one, stop digging.

[jokin]

There is zero possibility that a player (or agent) who ends up getting 4/$48 in February would have taken 1/$15 in December. Zero. For that to happen, both the player and agent would have had to have been 3 yrs and $31M off in their estimates of what they might get, and would have had no conversations with GMs. As it turns out, neither Bourn nor Lohse were "Borastically pitiful orphans" at all. Both just had to listen to their agent when he told them not to panic. There were (and are) FA CF options. Bourne on a one year deal never was realistic.

 

Chief, you do remember that Boras was in full-panic mode on the horrible servitude imposed on the players union by the incredibly barbaric CBA- in direct commentary on the difficulty in Bourn and Lohse getting signed? TD had many pages of commentary devoted to Scott Boras on this very topic.

 

On the CF options, we are in agreement, there were, and still are, other CF alternatives available.

 

Regarding holes, I'm not in one at the present time, although it might be a little warmer than where I'm currently sitting at Target Field.

[LaBombo]

To sum up, Hicks isn't the problem--he's a symptom of the problem. Borbon isn't the answer--he's just a blankee for some to grab when times get rough. If/when Hicks is demoted (and barring a Plouffe-miracle) he will be demoted, the CF answer is Mastroianni. Last, for all of you jumping on the "prospect bandwagon" that was so skillfully spun this Spring, let Hick's struggles serve as a warning that 2014 or even 2015 may not be wonderful.

 

Good take on Hicks resembling more of a lite version of a 3 true outcome #5 hitter than a leadoff hitter in his approach. But you lost me when you sent Hicks down and left Mastro as the only CF on the 25 man. If you're thinking either Boggs or Benson would play even just twice a week as the 4th OF and only one able to spell Mastro, well, that could get brutal...

[Kwak]

If the twins were going to spend 8 figures (and then some), doesn't it make a lot more sense that it would have been spent in positions that were known to be way below ML standard--like pitching, SS, and power hitting--than for a skinny CF?

[The Wise One]

Speaking of fantasy, you might want to get out a little bit more. There were multiple stories about the possibility of Boras and Bourn not getting what they wanted and settling for a one-year deal- believe it or not, they happen rather frequently.

Stories, not fact. There is a difference. Frequently for the top ranked free agents? How about rarely. Edwin Jackson was about the only one who signed a one year contract. Judging by this year's contract, Boras did the right thing.

[Kwak]

Good take on Hicks resembling more of a lite version of a 3 true outcome #5 hitter than a leadoff hitter in his approach. But you lost me when you sent Hicks down and left Mastro as the only CF on the 25 man. If you're thinking either Boggs or Benson would play even just twice a week as the 4th OF and only one able to spell Mastro, well, that could get brutal...

 

Mastroianni in CF can play everyday, he doesn't need to be rested like Mauer.

Brutal? Hicks, Dozier. Oh, wait August 2011 to Oct '11 was brutal. April 2012? Brutal. Plouffe in RF and Valencia at 3B last April, brutal. usw.

[jokin]

Stories, not fact. There is a difference. Frequently for the top ranked free agents? How about rarely. Edwin Jackson was about the only one who signed a one year contract. Judging by this year's contract, Boras did the right thing.

 

Hindsight does make you look like your vision is 20-20.

 

So many other scenarios that could have played out if someone like the Twins had made a solid offer before February 15. I have a strong feeling that Bourn would have preferred another city than Cleveland if he had had more choices on long-term deals. Boras is a walking conflict of interests, he could easily tell his client to take the deal because the Yankees/Red Sox/whoever... will be back in the hunt for him in 2014.

 

Again, I'm not saying Ryan would ever do what I would want him to do. I started this by saying if the Twins were actually serious about being competitive in 2013- they stripped the top of the order and their only proven CFers- and needed to replace the holes- they had the room in the payroll to make it happen, but they needed the wherewithal to plug those holes- either on the cheap with a Torres or Morgan- or to spend like Cleveland did and acquire actual talent and options for Plan A- and fallback Plan B- to make any legitimate case for staying in the pennant race.

[jokin]

Mastroianni in CF can play everyday, he doesn't need to be rested like Mauer.

 

The evidence for that is...?

[jokin]

If the twins were going to spend 8 figures (and then some), doesn't it make a lot more sense that it would have been spent in positions that were known to be way below ML standard--like pitching, SS, and power hitting--than for a skinny CF?

 

Everyman Bill Veeck kept his team, the White Sox, who were lucky to draw 600,000 fans some years, in contention year after year by renting FAs with talent and then either flipping them or moving to the next available players with talent.

[The Wise One]

Hindsight does make you look like your vision is 20-20.

 

So many other scenarios that could have played out if someone like the Twins had made a solid offer before February 15. I have a strong feeling that Bourn would have preferred another city than Cleveland if he had had more choices on long-term deals. Boras is a walking conflict of interests, he could easily tell his client to take the deal because the Yankees/Red Sox/whoever... will be back in the hunt for him in 2014.

 

Again, I'm not saying Ryan would ever do what I would want him to do. I started this by saying if the Twins were actually serious about being competitive in 2013- they stripped the top of the order and their only proven CFers- and needed to replace the holes- they had the room in the payroll to make it happen, but they needed the wherewithal to plug those holes- either on the cheap with a Torres or Morgan- or to spend like Cleveland did and acquire actual talent and options for Plan A- and fallback Plan B- to make any legitimate case for staying in the pennant race.

 

Let's see if I have thiss how Gunn wants it.

 

My Brother There are different perceptions of reality. The thought patterns are what they are. I thought I read you went to the game up there. It was cold out there and things get numb in the cold, right? I doubt that they have the small flasks of liquid antifree so popular with some icefishermen when I was there so am I safe to assume you found an alternative?

[jokin]

Let's see if I have thiss how Gunn wants it.

 

My Brother There are different perceptions of reality. The thought patterns are what they are. I thought I read you went to the game up there. It was cold out there and things get numb in the cold, right? I doubt that they have the small flasks of liquid antifree so popular with some icefishermen when I was there so am I safe to assume you found an alternative?

 

"Gunn?" "antifree?" "thiss"?

 

I think we do have different perceptions of reality and altered states. My alternative was a thermos of coffee and some of that delicious wild rice soup in the concourse, how about you?

[kab21]

To sum up, Hicks isn't the problem--he's a symptom of the problem. Borbon isn't the answer--he's just a blankee for some to grab when times get rough. If/when Hicks is demoted (and barring a Plouffe-miracle) he will be demoted, the CF answer is Mastroianni. Last, for all of you jumping on the "prospect bandwagon" that was so skillfully spun this Spring, let Hick's struggles serve as a warning that 2014 or even 2015 may not be wonderful.

 

Mastro can be the answer in CF but the team still needs another CF'er capable of actually playing the position if Hicks is sent down.

 

I also Borbon is capable of a .280+/.330/.380/.710 line as an MLB'er. That a pretty valuable asset coming from a 27 yr old that has average or better CF defense. I think this is a good way to add talent to the org.

 

In addition to that the Twins are one trade/injury to Mauer/Doumit/Morneau/Willy/Parmelee from opening up a spot in the OF in the OF for Arcia. what happens if a second injury/trade occurs? Clete Thomas time? that sounds awesome.

[old nurse]

Everyman Bill Veeck kept his team, the White Sox, who were lucky to draw 600,000 fans some years, in contention year after year by renting FAs with talent and then either flipping them or moving to the next available players with talent.

That was the 1970's. If finishing one year out of 6 in third place is being in contention ...

[old nurse]

The evidence for that is...?

I think the evidence that Mastro could play CF is about equal to speculation about lengths of contracts or where people want to play. The evidence would be a minor league career would show that he could play every day. Now why you would want a .250 to .275 BA .700 OPS playing regularly beyond an emergency/relief role is another story. Torres hits about that. Is Morgan even on a major league roster.