Wolfson: DFA'd Borbon a possibility

[snepp]

He was designated for assignment on the 9th. Then the team had 10 days to either trade him, or try passing him through waivers.

[ashbury]

This. (not sure what This. means but I have seen it in several posts, and it looks fun to type)

 

That. You win teh +1 internets.

[kab21]

I guess I'm just not convinced that Borbon is a significant enough upgrade to bother with.

 

Really? If Hicks gets sent back to AAA at some point in the next month then the Twins have no halfway decent backup OF'er options. They don't even have a halfway decent starting option for as long as Mastro is out. The worst case is that Hicks and Mastro are still up with the Twins in a month and the Twins might lose Wilkin Ramirez to waivers. I would certainly take Borbon over Wilkin.

[jokin]

I'm having a hard time understanding this desire on the part of some to keep swapping replacement players in and out of the 25- and 40-man rosters. Is it the old adage that if you throw enough jello against the wall, maybe some will stick?

 

People who are on waivers are there for a reason - you're not going to find quality talent that can make a noticeable difference. If you have a particular area where you are weak and the person can help in that specific area, maybe it makes sense. But just swapping players in and out and hoping something good happens seems senseless to me.

 

I guess I'm just not convinced that Borbon is a significant enough upgrade to bother with.

 

These guys beg to differ with your conclusion:

 

 

 

• Alex Anthopoulos, Blue Jays: 22 claims
  
• Brian Cashman, Yankees: 14 claims
  
• Jed Hoyer, Cubs: 10 claims
  
• Dan Duquette, Orioles: 8 claims
  
• Billy Beane, Athletics: 8 claims
  
• Chris Antonetti, Indians: 8 claims
  

[Gene Larkin Fan Club]

Borbon doesn't feel like a long-term fit given our organizational depth. Hopefully Mastroianni gets healthy, Hicks calms down and/or Benson figures it out enough to hold down the fort until Buxton is ready. That being said, he might fit nicely in the present.

 

Any steam on whether the Twins are interested in Charlie Leesman? Lefty put up solid stats in AAA last year and is a former Twins draft pick...

[johnnydakota]

To me its pretty simple , we need some help in center field, ownership will not buy us a quality player, So claim Borbon and when he is of no use to us, release him....

[Rosterman]

Charlie Leesman, who the Twins once drafted, is also available. Better than Caleb, perhaps.

[kab21]

Borbon doesn't feel like a long-term fit given our organizational depth. Hopefully Mastroianni gets healthy, Hicks calms down and/or Benson figures it out enough to hold down the fort until Buxton is ready. That being said, he might fit nicely in the present.

 

Borbon might be better than Mastroianni. I like Mastroianni quite a bit but Borbon is a pretty solid player overall. The problem right now for the Twins is that pretty much their only option until Buxton is ready is Hicks (or possibly Benson). If Hicks doesn't figure it out then this supposed strength becomes a big issue for 3 or so yrs. Having a 2nd solid backup is a pretty good option.

[big dog]

These guys beg to differ with your conclusion:

 

 

 

• Alex Anthopoulos, Blue Jays: 22 claims
  
• Brian Cashman, Yankees: 14 claims
  
• Jed Hoyer, Cubs: 10 claims
  
• Dan Duquette, Orioles: 8 claims
  
• Billy Beane, Athletics: 8 claims
  
• Chris Antonetti, Indians: 8 claims
  

 

Claims don't matter. People buy the stuff other people are discarding at garage sales, too. The important question is whether the claims result in any significant improvement. The Jays claimed Burnett, then DFA'ed him a few days later. Does that go down as a good mark for the Jays? If so, would 50 claims show an even smarter GM?

[cmathewson]

Ryan claimed a lot of guys in the last 18 months, many of whom are on the big league roster: Burton, Fien, Florimon, Roenicke, Mastroianni, Ramirez, Wood, Deduno, Boggs, etc. Perhaps he reached a state of saturation with replacement players, given the development of prospects. For this reason, I don't think waiver claims over a relatively short period is a good indicator of GM success. I'd like to see the list of the most active GMs in the last 18 months. That might more accurately reflect his waiver activity.

 

One other thing: In an ideal world, you wouldn't need to make any waiver claims for replacement players because you would have developed or otherwise acquired enough quality players to contend. Obviously, the Twins are not even close to that level. But I wouldn't laud Cashman for leading the league in waiver claims. It says more about the poor job he's done with almost unlimited resources than anything.

 

My question is: Is Bourbon better than Boggs? If so, grab him. If not, give Boggs the next shot.

[Shane Wahl]

Ryan claimed a lot of guys in the last 18 months, many of whom are on the big league roster: Burton, Fien, Florimon, Roenicke, Mastroianni, Ramirez, Wood, Deduno, Boggs, etc. Perhaps he reached a state of saturation with replacement players, given the development of prospects. For this reason, I don't think waiver claims over a relatively short period is a good indicator of GM success. I'd like to see the list of the most active GMs in the last 18 months. That might more accurately reflect his waiver activity.

 

One other thing: In an ideal world, you wouldn't need to make any waiver claims for replacement players because you would have developed or otherwise acquired enough quality players to contend. Obviously, the Twins are not even close to that level. But I wouldn't laud Cashman for leading the league in waiver claims. It says more about the poor job he's done with almost unlimited resources than anything.

 

My question is: Is Bourbon better than Boggs? If so, grab him. If not, give Boggs the next shot.

 

Well BOURBON is better than Boggs if one wants to get drunk. Whether Borbon is really better is pretty debatable. He's been not good at all as a major leaguer and his career OPS is lower than Boggs' in the minors.

 

Cycling through replacement level players is fairly dumb.

 

This is already a bit of a weird year, so I would not be completely shocked if one Mr. Danny Santana gets called up at some point . . . and he has previous experience in CF.

[golfboy1]

I think Borbon is an overall better option than Boggs. Borbon is a much superior centerfield defender, faster & he has had some success at the major league level. He has a .283 BA with a .324 OBP & has been an effective basestealer. That's way better than Boggs. Ben Revere has a .273 BA & a .315 OBP. Who do we have for CF right now? A guy hitting .044 who strikes out 39% of his AB's. That's it. Our other options are Ramirez, Boggs, Benson & Clete Thomas...& Benson is the only one of those that is good at CF. If they can claim him, there isn't much downside. They can easily remove someone from the 40 man roster & while Borbon isn't great..he's better than the other options the Twins have right now. Worst case scenerio, they get rid of him after he fails/Mastroianni returns.

[ThePuck]

I think Borbon is an overall better option than Boggs. Borbon is a much superior centerfield defender, faster & he has had some success at the major league level. He has a .283 BA with a .324 OBP & has been an effective basestealer. That's way better than Boggs. Ben Revere has a .273 BA & a .315 OBP. Who do we have for CF right now? A guy hitting .044 who strikes out 39% of his AB's. That's it. Our other options are Ramirez, Boggs, Benson & Clete Thomas...& Benson is the only one of those that is good at CF. If they can claim him, there isn't much downside. They can easily remove someone from the 40 man roster & while Borbon isn't great..he's better than the other options the Twins have right now. Worst case scenerio, they get rid of him after he fails/Mastroianni returns.

 

Well, that's dandy if you wanna use Revere's career line to compare to a rookie with 12 games played...but Ben Revere has a .194 BA and a .242 OBP going on this season.

 

In Revere's first 13 major league games (in 2010) he had BA of .173 and an OBP of .233. In his first full season (mostly full, over 400 PAs in 2011) he had a .179 BA and a .179 OBP in those first 12 games.

 

Hicks has 12 MLB games played...

[golfboy1]

I'm not anti-Hicks. In the long run I think he will be a really good ML player but right now he is struggling big time. He skipped AAA & I believe he should go to AAA & get more experience but we currently don't even have any other options.

 

 

I was comparing Reveres stats vs Borbon(not Hick's) when Shane stated that Borbon...."He's been not good at all as a major leaguer." Borbon hasn't been that bad, he just got passed in Texas & is a victim of the numbers game.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Borbon has a career 79 OPS+ in MLB in about twice as many PAs, compared to Boggs' 83 OPS+. Fewer walks and not as much power, but it's not as if Boggs is an OBP machine or a slugger -- he hasn't hit more than 11 HR in a season (combined minors and majors) since 2007. Borbon has significantly more steals, half the strikeout rate, and better defense (basically spent a whole MLB season as a positive CF starter).

 

WAR actually shows Borbon has been close to an average MLB player; Boggs and I suspect Wilkin Ramirez are the very definition of replacement level. Even if they are all replacement level with the bat, the ability to play a competent CF is pretty important, and with Mastroianni out, it's much more valuable to the Twins right now than marginal power off the bench.

[ThePuck]

I'm not anti-Hicks. In the long run I think he will be a really good ML player but right now he is struggling big time. He skipped AAA & I believe he should go to AAA & get more experience but we currently don't even have any other options.

 

 

I was comparing Reveres stats vs Borbon(not Hick's) when Shane stated that Borbon...."He's been not good at all as a major leaguer." Borbon hasn't been that bad, he just got passed in Texas & is a victim of the numbers game.

 

well, you wrote 'Ben Revere has a .273 BA & a .315 OBP. Who do we have for CF right now? A guy hitting .044 who strikes out 39% of his AB's.' It seems like there's a comparison there since Hicks stats followed directly after Revere's.

 

Overall, I wouldn't mind getting Borbon...though I'd be leery of his home/away splits. Texas is a very good hitter's park and his splits are considerable. It would alos concern me that the last good year he had was '09

[Otto von Ballpark]

Actually, although the shape of their contributions are a little different, Revere is a pretty good overall comp for Borbon -- their career WAR rates are almost identical to date, although Revere hasn't had a chance to play as much CF yet. (In a much smaller sample, Mastroianni compares pretty favorably to both too.)

 

If the Astros pass on Borbon, and there are no lingering health concerns for him, I would be disappointed if the Twins don't grab him. Regardless of what you do with Hicks, Borbon could have some real value.

[cmathewson]

That makes sense to me. The key differentiator is defense. I am just going off of anecdotal evidence here. But Borbon is the better defender. Boggs can play center. But if you had both players in the same lineup, you'd have Borbon in center and Boggs in right.

[golfboy1]

well, you wrote 'Ben Revere has a .273 BA & a .315 OBP. Who do we have for CF right now? A guy hitting .044 who strikes out 39% of his AB's.' It seems like there's a comparison there since Hicks stats followed directly after Revere's.

 

Overall, I wouldn't mind getting Borbon...though I'd be leery of his home/away splits.

 

Texas is a very good hitter's park and his splits are considerable. It would alos concern me that the last good year he had was '09

 

Yea, I didn't do a good job of seperating my thoughts. #1. Borbon is a decent option in CF(good D & speed) & his stats are actually comparable to Revere's( although I'd rather have Revere). #2. Hick's is currently hitting .044 & striking out a ton but we have almost no other option but to play him.

 

Long term I think Hicks will be fine but I'm not certain running him out there every day is a good idea. Almost every player goes up & down a few times before they stick. The only current Twin I can think of that stayed up is Mauer.

 

With Mastro on the DL I'm not sure who plays CF if Hicks is out? An OF of Willingham in LF, Ramirez in CF & Parmelee in RF would be challenging, to say the least

[ashbury]

If the Astros pass on Borbon, and there are no lingering health concerns for him, I would be disappointed if the Twins don't grab him.

 

As a technical question for someone who actually knows: the waiver process doesn't work this way, does it? I thought that during the waiver period on a player, teams put in their claims, and then after the deadline expires, the league office goes through and sees which claim has the highest ranking. In other words, it's a blind process for the individual teams. Am I right?

[ThePuck]

As a technical question for someone who actually knows: the waiver process doesn't work this way, does it? I thought that during the waiver period on a player, teams put in their claims, and then after the deadline expires, the league office goes through and sees which claim has the highest ranking. In other words, it's a blind process for the individual teams. Am I right?

 

Here's the breakdown: Understanding the MLB Waiver Process | sidepoints.com

 

Something I didn't see mentioned in there is that I believe within the first month of the season, waiver priority is determined by win/loss record regardless of league...so I think that means Astros have first shot, then Cubs then Rockies and then us until May comes around

 

It also explains

 

1. Why Mauer got put on Waivers that caused people to say 'they want to trade him, they want to trade him'

2. Why he wasn't claimed

[Rosterman]

You just aren't swapping replacement players in and out of the roster with waiver claims. Often the players on waivers are those that have no room in the current organization and thus become expendable. They are out of options, they are that 26th or 41st player. They might just need that opportunity somewhere else that their current team can't supply (see Sorrento and Garrett Jones, both former Twins,as example). If you have the roster flexibility, it is possible to take a flyer. Who knows. The Twins should be in a position where they can have 1-2 spots on the 40-man to rotate guys in an out. The downside of waiver claims is that you need to keep the guy, or he goes thru waivers again. But if he isn't producing, does it matter. And you may get lucky and be able to claim the guy, then designate him later for assignment and still keep him.

[jokin]

Claims don't matter. People buy the stuff other people are discarding at garage sales, too. The important question is whether the claims result in any significant improvement. The Jays claimed Burnett, then DFA'ed him a few days later. Does that go down as a good mark for the Jays? If so, would 50 claims show an even smarter GM?

 

Yes, and, yes.

[jokin]

You just aren't swapping replacement players in and out of the roster with waiver claims. Often the players on waivers are those that have no room in the current organization and thus become expendable. They are out of options, they are that 26th or 41st player. They might just need that opportunity somewhere else that their current team can't supply (see Sorrento and Garrett Jones, both former Twins,as example). If you have the roster flexibility, it is possible to take a flyer. Who knows. The Twins should be in a position where they can have 1-2 spots on the 40-man to rotate guys in an out. The downside of waiver claims is that you need to keep the guy, or he goes thru waivers again. But if he isn't producing, does it matter. And you may get lucky and be able to claim the guy, then designate him later for assignment and still keep him.

 

Yes!

[jokin]

Ryan claimed a lot of guys in the last 18 months, many of whom are on the big league roster: Burton, Fien, Florimon, Roenicke, Mastroianni, Ramirez, Wood, Deduno, Boggs, etc. Perhaps he reached a state of saturation with replacement players, given the development of prospects. For this reason, I don't think waiver claims over a relatively short period is a good indicator of GM success. I'd like to see the list of the most active GMs in the last 18 months. That might more accurately reflect his waiver activity.

 

One other thing: In an ideal world, you wouldn't need to make any waiver claims for replacement players because you would have developed or otherwise acquired enough quality players to contend. Obviously, the Twins are not even close to that level. But I wouldn't laud Cashman for leading the league in waiver claims. It says more about the poor job he's done with almost unlimited resources than anything.

 

My question is: Is Bourbon better than Boggs? If so, grab him. If not, give Boggs the next shot.

 

I don't know for sure if Bourbon is better than Boggs, but bourbon is definitely better than Borbon, or Tequila, for that matter.

 

The fact about which GMs are all over the waiver wire says A LOT more about not being satisfied with the current status quo- confirmed Schumpeterian theories of continual re-invention of the enterprise and creative destruction

[big dog]

Not necessarily, and almost certainly not.

[ashbury]

I don't know for sure if Bourbon is better than Boggs, but bourbon is definitely better than Borbon, or Tequila, for that matter.

 

Also while bourbon is not directly comparable to Drew Butera it takes away some of the pain.

[Guest USAFChief]

...bourbon is not directly comparable to Drew Butera...

Oh, I don't know. Both give me headaches.

[snepp]

Also while bourbon is not directly comparable to Drew Butera it takes away some of the pain.

 

Some.

[ashbury]

Oh, I don't know. Both give me headaches.

 

In both cases the advice would be to reduce the exposure.