Astros Consequences Thread

[USAFChief]

Some here use the term head hunting. Head hunting and throwing at some guy from the belt on down are two completely different acts. One is an intent to severely injure. The other is an intent to send a message. While I realize that not everyone discerns the difference, I do think the players do. As do I. If you asked me if it’s ok to plunk George Springer in the butt to thank him for stealing signs, I would be fine with that. If you asked me if it was ok to throw at George Springers head for the same reason I would be vehemently against it.

concur.

[PseudoSABR]

 

And now A-Rod has a thing or two to say ...

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/alex-rodriguez-rips-astros-for-showing-no-remorse-over-cheating-scandal/

I can't think of anyone who has down more post-career to turn their reputation around than Arod.  Now he's an authority on how you deal with cheaters.

[SomeGuy]

I'm curious what are everyone's thoughts on pitchers using illegal substances to grip the baseball better.  The post below is from Trade rumors yesterday and quotes Angels pitcher Andrew Heaney as saying most pitchers are currently doing it. It reminds me of the Pineda pine tar incident and a little of the Astros sign stealing incident where MLB is basically saying please be more discreet with your cheating.

 

 

The Angels fired visiting clubhouse manager Brian Harkins on Thursday amid allegations that he provided “illegal substances” to help opposing pitchers grip the ball better, Maria Torres of the Los Angeles Times reports. The news did not come as a surprise to the Angels, per Jeff Fletcher of the OC Register. “I think everybody knows that most guys are doing it,” left-hander Andrew Heaney said. “I don’t think it’s that surprising for anybody who knows baseball.” Pitching coach Mickey Callaway told Fletcher he expects Major League Baseball to ban hurlers from using pine tar and other such substances, but he believes it could have a detrimental effect because they help pitchers’ control – especially in cold conditions. “If I were a hitter, I’d be scared to dig into the box in Detroit on April 10,” he said. Manager Joe Maddon also weighed in, saying pitchers have been using substances to better their grip for “as long as I’ve been in baseball.” Maddon wonders whether MLB will eventually have to make changes to the ball, as the current one has become slicker.

[SomeGuy]

CBS fantasy baseball podcast also had a nice tidbit on the Astros beanings.  It was from a while ago so I am not sure how much this has changed.

 

At the time the Astros were leading ST in hit by pitches and everyone was writing articles about it being retribution. Of those that were hit only Jose Altuve was with the 2017 team or guaranteed a spot on this years team.  Jose Altuve's lone beaning was a curveball that barely got his foot.  Seems unlikely that pitchers are gunning down Houston minor leaguers or throwing curveballs at their feet as retribution.

[biggentleben]

 

CBS fantasy baseball podcast also had a nice tidbit on the Astros beanings.  It was from a while ago so I am not sure how much this has changed.

 

At the time the Astros were leading ST in hit by pitches and everyone was writing articles about it being retribution. Of those that were hit only Jose Altuve was with the 2017 team or guaranteed a spot on this years team.  Jose Altuve's lone beaning was a curveball that barely got his foot.  Seems unlikely that pitchers are gunning down Houston minor leaguers or throwing curveballs at their feet as retribution.

I mentioned upthread the standings as of March 4. Thirty players have now been hit multiple times this spring, none are Astros. The team is now tied with four other clubs for 14th place among teams, with less than half the HBP as a team of the team leader currently (7 for the Astros to 15 for the Cardinals).

[jkcarew]

Some here use the term head hunting. Head hunting and throwing at some guy from the belt  on down are two completely different acts. One is an intent to severely injure. The other is an intent to send a message. While I realize that not everyone discerns the difference, I do think the players do. As do I. If you asked me if it’s ok to plunk George Springer in the butt to thank him for stealing signs, I would be fine with that. If you asked me if it was ok to throw at George Springers head for the same reason I would be vehemently against it.

 

Many agree, I think. But, if Sano leads the AL in getting plunked in the butt because a bunch of pitchers are bothered by his 35-second HR trots (as a hypothetical example)..we wouldn’t be vehemently against that then, either? Or is it only fine that pitchers take policing and ‘messages’ into their own hands when we agree with the cause? Can’t have it both ways, IMO. If you,re ok with the sending of messages in this manner (and I think many of us are)...you can’t turn around and condemn it the instant a pitcher does it for something that offends them or their teammates, but doesn’t offend us. That’s where we get exposed to some hypocrisy on this topic, IMO. (Not directing this at Platoon...but the larger community, including myself.)

[Nine of twelve]

 

Some here use the term head hunting. Head hunting and throwing at some guy from the belt  on down are two completely different acts. One is an intent to severely injure. The other is an intent to send a message. While I realize that not everyone discerns the difference, I do think the players do. As do I. If you asked me if it’s ok to plunk George Springer in the butt to thank him for stealing signs, I would be fine with that. If you asked me if it was ok to throw at George Springers head for the same reason I would be vehemently against it. 

This is still very subjective and I don't know where I would draw the line. Aiming for the belt and missing a little could easily result in a hand/wrist injury. Or a broken rib. And I know I would not want to be hit in the groan. (Misspelling done purposely.) And what exactly constitutes a satisfactory reason to purposely throw at a batter? Maybe I'm just becoming a wuss in my old age but I'm beginning to come around to the point of view that the rules committee, the umpires, and the people in the MLB front offices in charge of discipline should be the ones to handle any consequences for rule-breaking, not a pitcher. And that includes unsportsmanlike conduct.

[ewen21]

 

Every couple of years something will trigger a long thread here about throwing at players for retribution for some unwritten rule.
When that happens, we learn that there are alot of posters who approve of doing that.
So I don't know that it's so hard to believe that it's those same posters who approve of throwing at Astros hitters.

I approve of it in some cases and this is one of those cases where I give latitude to pitchers to do just that.

 

Now what?

[David HK]

 

And now A-Rod has a thing or two to say ...

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/alex-rodriguez-rips-astros-for-showing-no-remorse-over-cheating-scandal/

Wow. That was a very interesting read.

 

A-Rod will be forever known as a cheater, as will the Astro* players of that era, and deservedly so. But if you read his actual words, instead of just the headline (cheater talks about cheaters), there's a lesson that should have been followed by those involved in this scandal.

 

Nobody can stand the half-baked non-apologies that come from sport stars, celebs, and pols when they get caught. (My all-time Hall of Shame: "It's not who I am.") But what A-Rod said and did ring clear. The most important word he used: "I."  I did it... I deserved it... I owned it... And he actually did make a clear, heartfelt apology for his own actions. Would he have done so without getting caught? Most likely not. But there it is.

 

If there had been actual, meaningful punishment from MLB, if there had been words like these coming from the Astros*, from their gutless, childish owner on down to the actual perpetrators, I don't think we'd even be talking about consequences like getting hit. These guys not only cheated in the most despicable fashion, they didn't get punished, and they didn't even apologize. What signal does that send?

 

It's like fighting in hockey. Yeh, there are still guys who make their way to the NHL that way, but what a lot of it comes from is guys getting cheap shots that the officials don't deal with, and taking matters into their own hands, so it doesn't keep happening. 

 

Yep, it's a cheater, talking about cheaters. But the words are important.