Buxton vs Hicks (the early years)

[Tomj14]

IMO, comparing Hicks and Buxton is not really fair, they are completely different type of hitters.

I think Buxton is closer to GO GO than Hicks.

(Hicks was criticized for not being aggressive at the plate, Buxton and Gomez are more free swingers?)

 

[Mr. Brooks]

Where are you getting this? I was expounding on what could be the reason why was Murphy was good in NY, awful here and now good again. THat is more an indictment of the Twins ability to develop (I've stated this explicity) players than anything. Murphy and Hicks got away from here and have flourished.

 

Any idea why that is? I am sure wondering how this happens

You said that Murphy could be helping us greatly right now.

I assume that means as he's playing this year, not as he did when he was here.

You later said that Hicks only became good because he left.

[ewen21]

 

I’m leaving Buxton in AAA for the rest of the year. I’m assigning someone to the job of whispering in his ear daily “quit swinging for the fences””... level out your swing and put the ball in play”.

Should we trade him and move on? How bout we just simply stop expecting him to be Mickey Mantle. How bout we just simply stop expecting him to carry the weight of all our hopes and dreams. How bout we simply keep Buxton. Think of him like we think of Cave and then be over joyed if he turns into Buxton we hoped for. That way if he develops... bonus. And If he doesn’t... he doesn’t take the entire organization down with him.

I never did expect him to be what a lot of other people imagined.  He had a brilliant year of hitting in the low minors in 2013 and that accounted for almost 37% of his minor league at bats.  He hit .334 and since then he has been up and down and injury plagued.

 

As far as the expectations go?  I always had tempered expectations and never projected him or any other prospect.  I generally do not partake in that game.  I leave that to the psychics who can use numbers to read the future.  I was not the one bestowing over-the-top accolades on him.  I thought they were equal parts unfair and ridiculous.

 

I surely hope that the next crop of young players don't get the same amount of responsibility, praise and expectations heaped on them.  Let them develop in the minors and let's see what the hell we have.  People were way too presumptuous with Sano and Buxton.

 

[ewen21]

 

You said that Murphy could be helping us greatly right now.
I assume that means as he's playing this year, not as he did when he was here.
You later said that Hicks only became good because he left.

 

Ummmm.  So what is the trouble?

 

HIcks COULD BE helping us as well if he were here and playing as he is now, just like Murphy.

 

Point is, other organizations seemed to know how to coach them up.  

 

 

[ewen21]

Funny how some people in this thread have found a single sentence in a couple of my posts and pit it against other things I stated explicitly in the same post.  Why do people intentionally misinterpret points they don't like?  Is this an attempt to find a contradiction?

 

I think what I said was quite clear.  TO summarize:

1. Buxton and Hicks are not comparable 

2. What Hicks has done in NY is irrelevant to how Buxton will proceed in this organization

3. The Twins have done a poor job of developing players as evidenced by the way players succeed after they leave and flop when they are here, or in the way hyped and touted players haven't panned out.

4. What Buxton did in the second half last year is no more important than what he has done this year

 

Anyone disagree with this?  

 

 

 

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

saw this on minor league ball

 

https://www.minorleagueball.com/2018/7/5/17532004/what-should-the-twins-do-with-byron-buxton

 

 

[Riverbrian]

I never did expect him to be what a lot of other people imagined. He had a brilliant year of hitting in the low minors in 2013 and that accounted for almost 37% of his minor league at bats. He hit .334 and since then he has been up and down and injury plagued.

 

As far as the expectations go? I always had tempered expectations and never projected him or any other prospect. I generally do not partake in that game. I leave that to the psychics who can use numbers to read the future. I was not the one bestowing over-the-top accolades on him. I thought they were equal parts unfair and ridiculous.

 

I surely hope that the next crop of young players don't get the same amount of responsibility, praise and expectations heaped on them. Let them develop in the minors and let's see what the hell we have. People were way too presumptuous with Sano and Buxton.

It won’t stop. We probably have a decent size percentage of our Twins Daily Posters already counting on Nick Gordon to start next year.

 

As humans. We have the uncanny ability to watch and feel what happens to Buxton, Sano, Kepler Etc. and eagerly await the next one. Like forgetting the pain of childbirth or life stops after one I guess.

[ewen21]

 

It won’t stop. We probably have a decent size percentage of our Twins Daily Posters already counting on Nick Gordon to start next year.
 

I love that mindset.  Just give guys at bats at major league level even if they don't deserve it because it worked with Kent Hrbek 35 years ago.

 

I am not into giving players an endless leash.  A lot of people felt Buxton should simply play everyday in CF this year.  Just put him in the lineup no matter what.  Well, it got so bad that couldn't happen.  When you grant a player that much leeway while other players remain on the tight leash it screws up accountability and this organization has had a lot of problems holding players accountable.

 

If Gordon heats up and has a great second half in Rochester and proves himself worthy then I am all for it. To make out the 2019 roster now is absurd.  Too much stuff on the horizon we cannot even begin to be able to predict

[alarp33]

 

 

4. What Buxton did in the second half last year is no more important than what he has done this year

 

Anyone disagree with this?  

 

Yes. The last 4 months of last season are more meaningful than the 47 healthy at bats Buxton received Mar-mid April this year

[yarnivek1972]

I guess I don't understand how Buxton's injured toe affected his ability to not swing at pitches out of the strike zone that he had no chance of hitting.

 

Sure, it would affect how hard he hit a ball, but I'm pretty sure WHICH PITCHES to swing at would be unaffected.

 

That has been the biggest impediment to his offensive development since the day he was drafted.

The guy has been in the organization for 6 years now. I wholeheartedly agree with ewen: that this is STILL his biggest problem should be a giant red flag that the player development personnel for this organization aren't getting the job done.

[TwinsCD]

To me, it's amazing how mistakes by the previous administration 5-7+ years ago are still coming back to haunt the organization now.  Trading Ramos for Capps was an absolute joke.  Now, we have zero solution at the catcher position, something Ramos could have easily stabilized.  Then in less than a month, they traded Span (which we knew was likely) and then traded his replacement in Revere (a bit of a surprise).  The returns on those trades?  Meyer, May, and Worley...yeah, incredibly overwhelming.  But what that also caused was the organization rushing Hicks to the majors as the opening day starting CF.  Instead of bringing him along slowly and having him back up Revere in center in 2013 (let's face it, Revere wasn't going to singlehandedly turn around a 99-loss team but at least it would have provided stability), Hicks began his rookie season 2 for 48 and was banished to AAA in mid-summer.  Total waste.  So then because they rushed him along that early, they expected too much, he didn't deliver, and they figured it would be a lot easier to unload him.  Hicks would look pretty good in center or right on today's team.

 

And that brings up the bigger point in all this is the player development side of things.  It seems the Twins don't know how anymore.  Injuries don't help in the Buxton & Sano cases but you see Hicks doing well with the Yankees the last couple of seasons.  You see that dope Murphy hitting well at Arizona.  Niko Goodrum was beyond terrible in his callup last year but he goes to the Tigers and he's adding offense.  I'm looking forward to trading some of this dead weight on the pitching staff (Lynn, Duke, et al) and watching them 'find something' and lead their new teams to a playoff berth.  It's all very frustrating and seems to be a vicious cycle that continues to bite the Twins.

 

As for Buxton...I leave him in AAA until he figures it out again.  He seemed to find it in the 2nd half of last year but this season is lost so there's no sense in watching him flail away in losing causes and maybe be a part of a winning attitude in Rochester.

[jokin]

 

To me, it's amazing how mistakes by the previous administration 5-7+ years ago are still coming back to haunt the organization now.  Trading Ramos for Capps was an absolute joke.  Now, we have zero solution at the catcher position, something Ramos could have easily stabilized.  Then in less than a month, they traded Span (which we knew was likely) and then traded his replacement in Revere (a bit of a surprise).  The returns on those trades?  Meyer, May, and Worley...yeah, incredibly overwhelming.  But what that also caused was the organization rushing Hicks to the majors as the opening day starting CF.  Instead of bringing him along slowly and having him back up Revere in center in 2013 (let's face it, Revere wasn't going to singlehandedly turn around a 99-loss team but at least it would have provided stability), Hicks began his rookie season 2 for 48 and was banished to AAA in mid-summer.  Total waste.  So then because they rushed him along that early, they expected too much, he didn't deliver, and they figured it would be a lot easier to unload him.  Hicks would look pretty good in center or right on today's team.

 

And that brings up the bigger point in all this is the player development side of things.  It seems the Twins don't know how anymore.  Injuries don't help in the Buxton & Sano cases but you see Hicks doing well with the Yankees the last couple of seasons.  You see that dope Murphy hitting well at Arizona.  Niko Goodrum was beyond terrible in his callup last year but he goes to the Tigers and he's adding offense.  I'm looking forward to trading some of this dead weight on the pitching staff (Lynn, Duke, et al) and watching them 'find something' and lead their new teams to a playoff berth.  It's all very frustrating and seems to be a vicious cycle that continues to bite the Twins.

 

As for Buxton...I leave him in AAA until he figures it out again.  He seemed to find it in the 2nd half of last year but this season is lost so there's no sense in watching him flail away in losing causes and maybe be a part of a winning attitude in Rochester.

 

You need to throw in Yangervis Solarte- who the Twins threw away for nothing. His 16 HR and .201 ISO and .325 wOBA would rank 2nd and 3rd, respectively on the current Twins roster.

[ewen21]

 

Yes. The last 4 months of last season are more meaningful than the 47 healthy at bats Buxton received Mar-mid April this year

Even after I have clarified you still are going to insist that your cockamammie twist on what I said is my opinion.

 

Again, I am saying Buxton's second half last year has no more value than what has happened during the first half this year.  That includes EVERYTHING since the season started in Baltimore.

[ewen21]

 

I guess I don't understand how Buxton's injured toe affected his ability to not swing at pitches out of the strike zone that he had no chance of hitting.

Sure, it would affect how hard he hit a ball, but I'm pretty sure WHICH PITCHES to swing at would be unaffected.

He also seemed to have no trouble bursting into full speed chasing down balls like the one he did in Seattle when Cruz went yard.  He can run like that with that toe, but can't swing the bat?

 

 

[ewen21]

I understand that a lot of people like to "see the positives" but it should not come at the expense of seeing the whole picture.  I have stated and restated that Buxton's second half last year should have no more value than what he has done the first half this year.  

 

Please stop intentionally recrafting what I said.  It is just silly.

[alarp33]

 

Even after I have clarified you still are going to insist that your cockamammie twist on what I said is my opinion.

 

Again, I am saying Buxton's second half last year has no more value than what has happened during the first half this year.  That includes EVERYTHING since the season started in Baltimore.

 

What is unclear about what I wrote? We have around 47 healthy at bats in early april to judge Buxton by. He unfortunately has been hurt. This isn't difficult

[jokin]

 

I have stated and restated that Buxton's second half last year should have no more value than what he has done the first half this year.  

 

 

 

Why?

[yarnivek1972]

What is unclear about what I wrote? We have around 47 healthy at bats in early april to judge Buxton by. He unfortunately has been hurt. This isn't difficult

And 60 in AAA. Some reason you are ignoring those? They matter. If he can't hit AAA pitching, he certainly isn't likely to hit MLB pitching.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

He also seemed to have no trouble bursting into full speed chasing down balls like the one he did in Seattle when Cruz went yard.  He can run like that with that toe, but can't swing the bat?

There is no contradiction here. 

 

He said straight routes were ok to run but rounding the bases was more difficult. When batters swing, they pick up their lead foot and land it (i.e., the leg kick). The foot goes sideways not straight ahead. Go back and look at some of his at bats in May. He was barely moving his lead leg sometimes. He was swinging with his arms and core without his legs. Sure, maybe his toe started feeling better but he still had those bad swing habits. Entirely possible. He went to AAA to fix it. That's what happened in 2018. 

 

The big picture is not to give up on him or wave the red flag because he's had a terrible season. 

[Riverbrian]

There is no contradiction here.

 

He said straight routes were ok to run but rounding the bases was more difficult. When batters swing, they pick up their lead foot and land it (i.e., the leg kick). The foot goes sideways not straight ahead. Go back and look at some of his at bats in May. He was barely moving his lead leg sometimes. He was swinging with his arms and core without his legs. Sure, maybe his toe started feeling better but he still had those bad swing habits. Entirely possible. He went to AAA to fix it. That's what happened in 2018.

 

The big picture is not to give up on him or wave the red flag because he's had a terrible season.

I swear that I’m not giving up on him myself.

 

But that is a loud OPS+ 7 for a guy ready to hit Arbitration. It isn’t injury to me. It is pitch recognition upper cut swing mechanics.

 

But I’ve seen the light bulb go on before and I will wait for it.

[ewen21]

 

What is unclear about what I wrote? We have around 47 healthy at bats in early april to judge Buxton by. He unfortunately has been hurt. This isn't difficult

What is unclear about what I wrote?  I understand perfectly what you wrote and I do not agree with it.  I am not going to write off migraines as nothing, nor will I write off what he does when he is on the field.  I won't discount the entire season as "well, he was injured" because he was lousy right out of the gate again.  His propensity for injuries is a big concern, especially since his game is predicated on speed.

 

He was good enough to run all over the outfield after he returned, but he can't swing a bat or have pitch recognition?  Did you see him the first half of last year?  What is the true Buxton? I have no idea, but you seem to have the market cornered on this.  It is his second half last year!  That's wonderful thought and If you want to only consider the postive and hope for the best I won't stop you.  Please do not, however, completely mischaracterize what I say.

[ewen21]

 

And 60 in AAA. Some reason you are ignoring those? They matter. If he can't hit AAA pitching, he certainly isn't likely to hit MLB pitching.

 

The Twins are working with him down there and I have seen at bats with and without the leg kick.  If this isn't enough to recognize he has a problem right now I am not sure what it is going to take

[ewen21]

 

There is no contradiction here. 

 

He said straight routes were ok to run but rounding the bases was more difficult. When batters swing, they pick up their lead foot and land it (i.e., the leg kick). The foot goes sideways not straight ahead. Go back and look at some of his at bats in May. He was barely moving his lead leg sometimes. He was swinging with his arms and core without his legs. Sure, maybe his toe started feeling better but he still had those bad swing habits. Entirely possible. He went to AAA to fix it. That's what happened in 2018. 

 

The big picture is not to give up on him or wave the red flag because he's had a terrible season. 

 

For whatever reason, he has not hit in the majors this year and he has continued to not hit in Rochester.

 

Making honest observations about is performance isn't allowed when looking at the "big picture"??  I guess if we are attaching excuses they aren't.

 

HOw about this....

It's been a very bad year for Buxton's development and there are valid reasons for concern

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

HOw about this....

It's been a very bad year for Buxton's development and there are valid reasons for concern

Of course. I wouldn't phrase it that strongly, but we can basically agree on that.

 

I am still optimistic on his future and believe time to let him keep working, or patience, is in order. I believe that's where our disagreement exists.

[yarnivek1972]

Of course. I wouldn't phrase it that strongly, but we can basically agree on that.

 

I am still optimistic on his future and believe time to let him keep working, or patience, is in order. I believe that's where our disagreement exists.

We’re watching different players if you think “valid concerns” is phrased strongly. Over 1000 PA with a K rate over 30%. 600 more PA at AA and AAA with a K rate over 25%. That’s not good for a speed type player.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

We’re watching different players if you think “valid concerns” is phrased strongly. Over 1000 PA with a K rate over 30%. 600 more PA at AA and AAA with a K rate over 25%. That’s not good for a speed type player.

No, we are both watching the same player. We just have different opinions.

[Doomtints]

 

Generational talent is absurd hyperbole.

 

And there *was* an abundance of absurd hyperbole being thrown around when it came to Buxton.

 

You can do better than pick on someone's word choice. The spirit of what he said is 100% true. If you managed not to see the buzz at the time, you are either incredibly young or you weren't following the Twins much back then.

[notoriousgod71]

 

They weren’t patient enough with Hicks. They weren’t patient enough with Murphy who could be giving them solid defense at catcher.

They need to have patience with Buxton. I would keep him down all year and then start him the next two years. I wouldn’t give up on his talent until 2000 plate appearances and approaching age 27.

 

2000 PA for Buxton will be at age 37 at the rate he gets hurt.

[alarp33]

And there *was* an abundance of absurd hyperbole being thrown around when it came to Buxton.

 

You can do better than pick on someone's word choice. The spirit of what he said is 100% true. If you managed not to see the buzz at the time, you are either incredibly young or you weren't following the Twins much back then.

Thank you for the history lesson from 4 years ago. He was the top prospect in baseball. No one called him Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays. There is a top prospect in baseball every year, he was one of them

[yarnivek1972]

Actually, I seem to recall Willie Mays comparisons being bandied about.

 

Probably not by scouts, but in the fandom world.