Warne: Deeper dive into Sano allegations

[Thrylos]

 

 

This will not go away soon and it is not time for fans to take positions.  I want everyone involved, the police, the Twins, MLB to start a process and I want them to pursue the events to whatever is the proper conclusion. 

 

The police can do nothing.  The police arrest potential law-breakers and the DAs charge them with a crime.  The statue of limitations has ran out on assault, so no DA can charge him with anything.

 

Based on the CBA, the Twins cannot start an investigation; only the MLB can.  And likely it will.

 

There is another potential consideration there: Civil Court.  There could be lawsuits filed against Sano for damages and by Sano for defamation.

 

Only ways that this will get resolved.

[Ncgo4]

This is a terrible moment for Minnesota Twins Baseball. The young woman, Sano, the Twine and the fans. No one wins. Two observations. First if the allegations are true, they needed to be aired. If true, the writer had the obligation to protect other young women. Secondly, the timing is fortuitous. If, as reported, the statute of limitations has expired, then the examination of the facts won’t be clouded by an overhanging threat of jail. This can be investigated thoroughly and a decision made on what is generally agreed are the facts.

 

If the facts as reported are determined to be true, Mr. Sano will pay a dear price for his actions, as he should. Following what I assume would be less than a full season suspension, he will face unmerciful cat calls and ridicule for years. I’m not convinced he has the makeup to deal well with what he could likely face. Not a happy day for Twin’s fans.

[Guest]

Initially, when I read about the issues regarding the Lookouts' female ushers and the reports elsewhere that some past/current (it's not clear to me which) teammates felt Sano was a "timebomb," I was relieved in a way because I unashamedly believe Betsy's account and those factors perhaps provided some level of corroboration for her story.

 

The problem is, those factors also would mean that others knew about this side of Sano's personality and either didn't do anything to bring it to the attention of the Twins' front office... or they DID bring it to the attention of the Twins and no action was taken by the team... or despite best efforts, nobody could alter his problematic behavior.

 

None of those possibilities are pleasant to think about, but if it turns out that others - whether teammates, managers, coaches, Twins' front office staff or Lookouts front office management - knew there was a problem and didn't take appropriate and effective action BEFORE this happened with Betsy or anyone else, I'll be very upset. 

 

All the more reason why MLB needs to conduct this investigation, not the Twins. They can't be relied on to investigate their own complicity. Not that we have a lot of reason to trust MLB, either, of course.

[Sam Morley]

 

"Reprehensible" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

There are other behaviors that some of us might find reprehensible (like bringing politics and religion in Sports, being racist, being homophobic, cheating, etc.)   And the Twins have had (and still have) plenty of that.

 

Where should the line being drawn?  To whose reprehension? 

That is a very slippery slop...

 

Are we being semantic? I can compose a list of synonyms.

 

To be clear, in this case, "reprehensible" is specifically in reference to sexual assault and sexual harassment.

 

Still, you are correct. To some (Miguel Sano apparently among them) sexual assault and sexual harassment are not reprehensible. 

 

I think many people (myself among them) are saying that a line should be drawn at sexual harassment and sexual assault.

 

Okay, I'm done being defensive. Even though I think your response to my post is a bit nitpicky, I do think you raise an interesting and complicated problem about what specific behavior we are willing to tolerate. On one level, there is the law which is clear about a lot of behavior that is intolerable. Most businesses and organizations are also clear about what behavior is intolerable to them. As individuals- in this case, individual sports fans- we obviously get to decide our own opinions for ourselves. I think one aspect of this conversation is finding out if there is some level of consensus amongst us sports fans collectively. I think we are capable of identifying certain specific behaviors that are intolerable to us without being in danger of sliding down any slippery slopes. I propose that in the case of Miguel Sano, the behavior he has been accused of is intolerable. 

 

 

[mudcat14]

 

The problem is, those factors also would mean that others knew about this side of Sano's personality and either didn't do anything to bring it to the attention of the Twins' front office... or they DID bring it to the attention of the Twins and no action was taken by the team... or despite best efforts, nobody could alter his problematic behavior.

 

The Twins 'official' statement made reference to the incident with the photographer in 2015, which they may have known nothing about.  Since the reports from Chattanooga were to have occurred in 2015 at an organization facility and known by multiple people on the Lookouts staff,  perhaps the club did have a conversation with him to curtail the behavior.  As of now at least, there have been no reports of any incidents within the last 27 months or so. 

 

At the very least, I would hope that these allegations will encourage the organization to take a hard line on harassment of all forms.  Education and clearly defined policies of behavior should be strictly adhered to, especially with young and often entitled young men.  

[Jham]

 

I don't think he can face charges. False imprisonment and assault and battery have two-year statutes of limitation.

 

But with that said, Aroldis Chapman faced suspension without charges. This will be fascinating to monitor, but I'm so glad I don't have to make a punishment decision.

The two-year statute of limitations is for a civil claim, not criminal.  It's actually provides more strength to her claim.  This is clearly not a money grab.

I still think it is unlikely that criminal charges will be filed because of the length of time that has passed and the apparent lack of evidence in the form of witnesses and physical evidence.  

True fans of Sano should STILL BE FANS OF SANO!  You don't give up on people for making a mistake.  Especially in their early 20's.  Treat people like criminals, and you'll likely get criminal behavior.  Those asking for zero tolerance are well intended, but there are significant drawbacks to that severe of an approach.  The message shouldn't be "respect women or you'll be kicked out of the league."  The message should be "respect women because they're worthy of your respect."  The first example does not require a player to learn respect, and doesn't even require respect in scenarios with no chance of being caught. Empathy requires learning and perspective. I doubt Sano would be ok with someone treating his mother that way.  

With zero tolerance, you're basically telling this kid, that he's beyond fixing.  That's not fair or humane.  I really really doubt that's what Betsy would want.  Sano needs to learn from this and be a champion for women from here on out.  I have a client with multiple DWI's including CVO which severely injured another driver.  He now uses his story and battle with addiction to educate teen drivers on the dangers of drunk driving and alcohol abuse.  We're demanding that men change, but currently, we're not showing them how.

 

[ThejacKmp]

I wish she was more careful with her choice of words and timing in the Twitter statement. Since her account are the only details we know, accuracy matters.

Yeah. That's the crime here. Her inability to tell time during a traumatic experience.

[ThejacKmp]

True fans of Sano should STILL BE FANS OF SANO!  You don't give up on people for making a mistake.  Especially in their early 20's. 

 

Ten of the 911 hijackers were under age 23. Timothy McVeigh was 26. I'm not obligated to support people because they are young anymore than I'm required to say "boys will be boys". If these allegations prove true, anyone is absolutely justified in boycotting, booing and dismissing Miguel Sano in his role as a professional baseball player.

[old nurse]

 

I don't think he can face charges. False imprisonment and assault and battery have two-year statutes of limitation.

 

But with that said, Aroldis Chapman faced suspension without charges. This will be fascinating to monitor, but I'm so glad I don't have to make a punishment decision.

bullet holes vs he said she said. The Chapman case is very different than this one.

[old nurse]

 

 

OK, I am playing along.  Based on the same ethical principles, I suspect that you would propose that the behavior that the President of the United States has been accused of is intolerable.

 

No?

Compare and contrast that with "I remember things differently" but resigning anyway.

[AlwaysinModeration]

I applaud Betsy, as it took a great deal of courage for her to step forward, and as evidenced by the aftermath of her post, which is undoubtedly prolonging the trauma for her, her hesitation in coming forward is understandable. I hope that this revelation will be a further step in changing the culture in sports - and other arenas, but we are focused on sports - in which young men who become superstars, think that women fawn all over them (reinforced by some who do), and think they can get away with anything. I also think there is a culture of enabling these sorts of behaviors (was his agent “looking the other way”?, do the ushers at the Lookouts need to put up with this sort of nonsense?) that also needs to change. It’s not new - I feel like I should go reread Ball Four - but it is long ovedue.

 

I am sure Sano views the events differently than Betsy does. I hope that Sano takes steps to make amends for his actions, and learns from this and improves his behavior going forward. I hope the Twins organization takes steps to make it clear that they won’t condone it and that they expect and demand better. And I hope that this doesn’t draw on too long for Betsy, but that she can feel good that she did something important in bringing this to light.

 

Thanks to Brandon for your measured piece, and to the moderators for keeping the discussion civil.

[ashbury]

Mod Note: The moderators have had to remove two locker-room comments this morning. Knock it off.

[Lefty74]

100% believe Betsy and the story about the harrassment of the usher. That being said I place a large part of the blame on the Twins. Many of these young men arrive in US unable to speak English and are thrown into our culture/norms which are not the same as their home countries. That doesn’t make anything Sano did acceptable, but it places a huge responsibility on the Twins to educate and monitor actions. Inspect what you expect. Letting him get away with things in the minors empowered him; it should have been dealt with immediately.

 

I would be interested to know if things have changed since Falvey & Levine took over. Is there more training for minor league players and coaches? I do know that Cleveland does a lot of work with their minor league players and set very tough standards. I have to believe Falvey has brought some of that with him.

 

Bottom line for me, Sano is responsible but the Twins could have and should have stepped in much earlier to make it clear this type of behavior is unacceptable.

[Jham]

 

Ten of the 911 hijackers were under age 23. Timothy McVeigh was 26. I'm not obligated to support people because they are young anymore than I'm required to say "boys will be boys". If these allegations prove true, anyone is absolutely justified in boycotting, booing and dismissing Miguel Sano in his role as a professional baseball player.

You way misunderstood my post.  I'm not saying that Sano's actions are excusable or even forgivable because of his age. I'm saying he is young enough to learn, to change, and to even teach.  

Who said you were obligated or you didn't have the right?  I said Sano's TRUE fans should still be fans.  People that care about him as a person as opposed to just a power hitter.  If he's just a baseball player to you, boo away. 
 

The fact of the matter is that this kid has been playing professionally since he was 16.  He was in baseball academies since well before that.  He didn't have high school dances and college lecture halls to form healthy attitudes toward the opposite sex.  I would guess that many or most interactions he's had with sex and women are from women who want something from him.  If he perceives women as trying to use him, he's going to reciprocate those attitudes.  Locker rooms, MLB culture, and apparently Twins coaching staffs reaffirm those attitudes.  

Finally, the comparison to terrorists is over-the-top.  If Sano were your son, you'd want him to get help, learn from his mistake, and grow as a person.  I'd hope you wouldn't cut him lose.
 

[ashbury]

I do know that Cleveland does a lot of work with their minor league players and set very tough standards. I have to believe Falvey has brought some of that with him.

This would be nice to believe. Falvey has been on-board for only the past year, and it's possible that Sano received some stricter guidance during 2017, and the hope was that past misdeeds would be put behind him and the resolution would be to "go ye and sin more".

 

The public allegations make that (speculative) approach no longer viable. We're going to learn something about our front office's backbone in the coming weeks.

[bunsen82]

This is likely going to be my last post on this topic, but there are some things that I think need to be posted.  The first is I think due to Twinsdaily having ties, I actually give credit that there has been very minimal attacks on Betsy on this website that I have seen.  Compared to other fan websites of teams after incidents it is usually a cess pool.  Kudos. 

 

However, I have lurked these forums for nearly 5 years and yes this topic did hit a nerve for a variety of reasons, I stated in a previous post I had a false harassment allegation against me, I have a daughter but I was also in a management position that had to investigate allegations like this. 

 

To the meat of my post.  Warne's article is accurate per RAINN, of 1,000 rapes (these statistics do translate over to harassment and other assault claims) only 310 are reported,  57 lead to arrests, 11 are referred to prosecutors , 7 lead to felony convictions and 6 are still incarcerated.  Of the 310 reports approximately 20 are false allegations.  Hence the 6%, but in actuality its 2% because these claims are so under reported.  The reasons for such low reporting and convictions are bountiful. But I wish Warne would have pushed further as to why.   

 

I would highly recommend reading Shana L Meiers book, "Rape ,Victims, and investigations: Experiences and Perceptions of Law." Pages 85-87 go in depth that in traumatic situations are memories are not stored in the same area where most of our memories are, thus they are more fragmented.  For most police officers or investigators they struggle to get information with their techniques of just badgering questions. New techniques include asking more what did they smell or hear, which can ultimately get more details of what occurs.  However the bigger issue is in recalling the events, a majority embellish details (Page 85).  wwwmensdefense.com says over 80% of claims have lies or embellished details.  Meier states this occurs for a variety of reasons, they are ashamed or they try to build up their story more, specifically exaggerating details of the crime or more than not exaggerating how much they fight back or yelling or screaming and saying no, because they feel that they should have fought back.  I talked to police officer friend he says he feels the percentage is closer to 2/3rds of claims to 75% have some false detail in the claim but this causes a majority of the claims to not even make it to trial due to having concerns on the credibility of the witnesses.   Even with the embellishments I want to reiterate, that doesn't mean the events didn't happen, and these are not false accusations.  

 

Long story short, I could see if some of the embellished details are out, that both Betsy and Sano could take a lie detector test and both pass.  You may ask why and the answer would be they had extremely different perceptions of what was occurring.  I can come up with a very plausible set of events in my mind that would be very favorable to Sano yet also support Betsy that she felt very uncomfortable in the situation.  The issue is, none of us know what the real truth is, and the investigation may not even discover what the real truth.    

 

I am sure everyone remembers all the statements about how strong of a grip on a handshake Adrian Peterson had, I am sure Sano could be very similar, lets just say he reached his hand out, she reached hers out, yes it very well could have hurt but there would be nothing wrong.  Again in the hallway a similar situation occurred, yes it could have hurt a bit, he may have gone in again she shied away, she did feel uncomfortable but she never truly expressed it or told him he was hurting her.  After 30 seconds to a minute he gets the hint stops and leaves.  She could have felt very intimidated, hurt, scared, and he could have felt nothing occurred. 

 

I spoke before about my accusation.  This was in 2007 and  I was 24 years old, similar to Sano.  I took a 2 day course, that went into all the pitfalls and discuss womens and mens perceptions of events and to realize perception is the truth in ones eyes, even if that isn't the truth of what occurred and what we can do to ensure we don't fall into those pitfalls and how not to make women feel uncomfortable and ultimately how we should treat them.  .  I think all men should take a course like this, there is a possibility that this incident saved me from having a bigger incident down the road.  In a similar way this could be similar type situation for Sano.    My guess is all players took a similar course after Adrian Peterson issue and ultimately the Sano of today may not be the Sano of 2015.  Either way based on some of the comments I could see that he may be too cavalier in his attitudes and has some major growing up to do. 

 

I could also see that he may have not deserved this sort of public ridicule.  He is being grouped with Lauer, Harvey Weinstein, for baseball players Derek Norris and Aroldis Chapman.  The details of this account no where near reach the levels of any of those individuals or cases.  This is just flat out wrong.  

 

I have a feeling many are going to be surprised and disappointed if there is a very minimal punishment, no punishment or possible that Sano could be cleared on any wrong doing. I have a feeling that is ultimately where this is going to go, unless more things pop up that showed this was not a one time incident and the claim with the lookouts, really isn't another claim, but it very well could show there may be more women out there with similar situations.  

 

I hope ultimately Betsy can find peace, that Sano can learn from this and become a better man, and as a society we can all grow.  I like the metoo movement for giving a voice to abuse and bringing it to the forefront, but I have a fear it is bringing some unintended consequences and some individuals may get caught up in the whirlwind and experience pain, shame, and potentially financial implications that should not of.  I can thank the hero's for making this a better world for my daughter, but would never encourage her to take this route if this would occur to her, due to some negative consequences for future employment threats ect.  I would encourage her to discuss it with a lawyer, get the actual details ironed out and then file a complaint with the company immediately or file a claim with the police department.  We need to also get these abusers off the streets,  with the RAINN data, too many are able to continue to roam.  I have ramble to long and I am heading off into the sunset on this topic.  

[rdehring]

After reading about the situation in Chattanooga the other day, it appears that his treatment of female ushers was well known.  Thus, it would be logical to assume Twins management knew of it, ie, Doug Mientkiewicz.  Could his handling, or lack of handling, be amongst the reasons his contract wasn't extended?  Don't know?

[ashbury]

However, I have lurked these forums for nearly 5 years and ...  It appears that in keeping the boards clean to me the board has leaned towards more of protecting Betsy than having a balanced view on the subject.  I had a strong attack by one of the mods two days ago, and yesterday I was told to stop posting for the day.  I obliged with that recommendation, but at the same point nothing that I have posted has been off the reservation.  

As a long-time lurker you might know that in the TD Comment Policy we discourage in-thread discussion of moderation, as it tends to divert from the given topic of discussion. There is the Questions About MinnCentric forum area at the site for that kind of discussion, or you can PM one of the moderators, or take it up with ownership. I will take the bait here only to say that the moderators have been keeping each other apprised of our actions, and I think it's safe to say our actions have been toward keeping the threads clear of disrespectful clutter or overheated rhetoric or trolling, for precisely the reason of fostering a balanced discussion of this important but difficult subject. Balance comes from what people collectively choose to post. And with that, I ask that further response on this topic of site moderation be directed to one of the appropriate places.

[bunsen82]

I edited my post.  

[KirbyDome89]

 

Ten of the 911 hijackers were under age 23. Timothy McVeigh was 26. I'm not obligated to support people because they are young anymore than I'm required to say "boys will be boys". 

Comparisons like this only distract from the seriousness of the situation. If your intent is to support the author of the Twitter post, this type of comment doesn't accomplish that goal.

[ThejacKmp]

Comparisons like this only distract from the seriousness of the situation. If your intent is to support the author of the Twitter post, this type of comment doesn't accomplish that goal.

This exchange in the thread had to do with how to react if sano is guilty - do we cheer for the Twins? Boo sano?

 

It had nothing to do with the truth of the assault. Please read for context and stop trying to control things.

[ThejacKmp]

You way misunderstood my post.  I'm not saying that Sano's actions are excusable or even forgivable because of his age. I'm saying he is young enough to learn, to change, and to even teach.  

Who said you were obligated or you didn't have the right?  I said Sano's TRUE fans should still be fans.  People that care about him as a person as opposed to just a power hitter.  If he's just a baseball player to you, boo away. 

 

The fact of the matter is that this kid has been playing professionally since he was 16.  He was in baseball academies since well before that.  He didn't have high school dances and college lecture halls to form healthy attitudes toward the opposite sex.  I would guess that many or most interactions he's had with sex and women are from women who want something from him.  If he perceives women as trying to use him, he's going to reciprocate those attitudes.  Locker rooms, MLB culture, and apparently Twins coaching staffs reaffirm those attitudes.  

Finally, the comparison to terrorists is over-the-top.  If Sano were your son, you'd want him to get help, learn from his mistake, and grow as a person.  I'd hope you wouldn't cut him lose.

 

People who are 90 are still able to learn from mistakes, ridiculous to make age a part of it. Or do you have the magic age where people suddenly are set in their ways? What is that age? I want to know so I know what my deadline is for learning things.

 

Stop telling people what being a true fan is. People are going to go through their own internal moral process with this. If I come to the conclusion that I can't support someone who acts this way, that doesn't make me less of a fan. And booing him doesn't mean I don't view him as a person. Actions have consequences and are a signal of inner character. My boss and my wife and my friends judge me on my actions, would a professional athlete be any different?

 

And stop trying to excuse this behavior because "women have been trying to use him." That wouldn't make this any more understandable or okay. It's insulting and crass to even suggest that.

 

The terrorist thing is over the top but it serves to illustrate that saying "well he's young" is a b.s. argument.

[Twins33]

Wasn't sure where to put this, so I'm putting it here. Saw Rob Neyer RT it and I had never read it before. Its very good, in my opinion. It's over a month old now.

 

[KirbyDome89]

 

This exchange in the thread had to do with how to react if sano is guilty - do we cheer for the Twins? Boo sano?

It had nothing to do with the truth of the assault. Please read for context and stop trying to control things.

My comment was directed at the snippet that I quoted, not the entire exchange. There is no "context," where the comparison you made is warranted. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you understand that the events you listed aren't in the same stratosphere as the issue involving Sano. Nothing is being "controlled," if you don't like the pushback to your post then perhaps a more measured approach is the remedy. 

[DrNeau]

 Are there any witnesses? Doesn't sound like there is even one witness which supports this lady's claim. Sure didn't take Plouffe long to insert himself into the situation. Real smart. 

[Jham]

People who are 90 are still able to learn from mistakes, ridiculous to make age a part of it. Or do you have the magic age where people suddenly are set in their ways? What is that age? I want to know so I know what my deadline is for learning things.

 

Stop telling people what being a true fan is. People are going to go through their own internal moral process with this. If I come to the conclusion that I can't support someone who acts this way, that doesn't make me less of a fan. And booing him doesn't mean I don't view him as a person. Actions have consequences and are a signal of inner character. My boss and my wife and my friends judge me on my actions, would a professional athlete be any different?

 

And stop trying to excuse this behavior because "women have been trying to use him." That wouldn't make this any more understandable or okay. It's insulting and crass to even suggest that.

 

The terrorist thing is over the top but it serves to illustrate that saying "well he's young" is a b.s. argument.

You don't know me or anything about me. You presume and project because you're blinded by raw emotion. Don't put words in my mouth. And stop twisting posts to fit your agenda. You're gross classification of myself and my views shows how difficult it is for people to simply put themselves in another's shoes. It's a conscious effort we all must make. You may think ridding the world or the sport of men like Sano will fix things. I happen to think that if we don't fix the culture, it won't matter because we'll just create more perpetrators. Understanding why Sano may have the attitude he has toward women and how it developed seems like a fairly important question for anyone trying to address the issue.

 

Again, I never used "he's young as an excuse." I never used his upbringing as an excuse. I only suggested that we take measures to try to understand and break the cycle. I appreciate your passion, but not your insults or mischaractorizations.

[ThejacKmp]

My comment was directed at the snippet that I quoted, not the entire exchange. There is no "context," where the comparison you made is warranted. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you understand that the events you listed aren't in the same stratosphere as the issue involving Sano. Nothing is being "controlled," if you don't like the pushback to your post then perhaps a more measured approach is the remedy.

 

Perhaps you should read the back and forth before inserting yourself. Directing your comment at that snippet means you entirely misunderstood what the conversation was about. It had nothing to do with the truth of the allegation, it had to do with the response of a fan to a player doing something heinous. It might have been an interesting topic for you if you'd taken a chance to understand the back and forth. Alas you did not.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Perhaps you should read the back and forth before inserting yourself. Directing your comment at that snippet means you entirely misunderstood what the conversation was about. It had nothing to do with the truth of the allegation, it had to do with the response of a fan to a player doing something heinous. It might have been an interesting topic for you if you'd taken a chance to understand the back and forth. Alas you did not.

No, not a misunderstanding. You made an absurd comparison and I pointed it out. Again, there is no "context," that changes that classification. 

[Sam Morley]

 

The two-year statute of limitations is for a civil claim, not criminal.  It's actually provides more strength to her claim.  This is clearly not a money grab.

I still think it is unlikely that criminal charges will be filed because of the length of time that has passed and the apparent lack of evidence in the form of witnesses and physical evidence.  

True fans of Sano should STILL BE FANS OF SANO!  You don't give up on people for making a mistake.  Especially in their early 20's.  Treat people like criminals, and you'll likely get criminal behavior.  Those asking for zero tolerance are well intended, but there are significant drawbacks to that severe of an approach.  The message shouldn't be "respect women or you'll be kicked out of the league."  The message should be "respect women because they're worthy of your respect."  The first example does not require a player to learn respect, and doesn't even require respect in scenarios with no chance of being caught. Empathy requires learning and perspective. I doubt Sano would be ok with someone treating his mother that way.  

With zero tolerance, you're basically telling this kid, that he's beyond fixing.  That's not fair or humane.  I really really doubt that's what Betsy would want.  Sano needs to learn from this and be a champion for women from here on out.  I have a client with multiple DWI's including CVO which severely injured another driver.  He now uses his story and battle with addiction to educate teen drivers on the dangers of drunk driving and alcohol abuse.  We're demanding that men change, but currently, we're not showing them how.

 

 

I'm about to disagree with some aspects of your post, but I want to start by saying that it's hard to find fault with any call for empathy for another person. 

 

I think the concept of being a true fan is weird. I think it must have something to do with history, experience, loyalty, and commitment. I think for me, as you suggest, it must also have to do with an appreciation of the players as actual human beings. Along those lines, and probably also without ever having considered it before, for most of my life if someone had asked me if I were a true fan of the Twins, I would have said yes without hesitation. 

 

I am one who has declared cessation of fanhood for Sano (so to speak) and have said that I am willing to go as far no longer watching the Twins if they continue to employ him. If this changes my status as a true fan, I guess I am okay with that. I don't think it's important to be a true fan, and maybe I think, even, that there might be something wrong with it. 

 

I have the impression in general, that usually when calls for empathy for players are made, it is when they have done something pretty wrong and/or criminal and there is some semblance of their career being in jeopardy. Now, I'm going to drag the NFL into this. I do because in the NFL, there seems to be more instances of bad/criminal behavior by players than in the MLB but also because there is far more instances of peoples lives being ruined by their participation in the NFL than in the MLB. When Ben Rothlisberger and Joe Mixon have the empathy/patience/understanding of the NFL and its fans (and empathy is tangible here: it functionally manifests as being allowed make millions of $ playing ball in the NFL) but what seems like countless league alumni are suffering with dementia and prescription drug addiction without empathy/appreciation/compassion (empathy is tangible here also: it would functionally manifest as compensation, treatment, and policy for the well being of current players) the "empathy" for the criminal boys seems less like empathy and more like something... else. I don't really want to start a tangent about the NFL on this thread, it is just a more poignant example than the MLB of my suggestion that probably the vast majority of sports fans don't care about the players as individual human beings at all, and only evoke concepts of empathy and forgiveness and second chances when they somehow feel that something is at stake for themselves as fans (or fantasy sports players/gamblers). This feels pretty slimey to me. 

 

Jham, I don't want to lump you in with those types of fans, and I didn't get that feeling from your post. It just reminded me of it.

 

I continue. The idea that what Sano is accused of doing can be (and often is in other similar and much worse circumstances) described as a mistake is bothersome to me. I would say that it is wrong. I think I know what a mistake is. I have made many mistakes in my life. For example, many times in my career as a carpenter I have pulled my tape measure from right to left, read the wrong side of the number due to the tape being upside down and resultantly cut the piece an inch short. This is a mistake. What Sano is accused of is a willful commission of an illegal, malicious, and dangerous action against another person. That is not a mistake or an error in judgement, and paired with the account from Chattanooga, it is a revelation of core character. I am glad that my former employers and current customers didn't/don't give up on me when I succumbed to the "old inch trick". Nevertheless, I feel totally comfortable "giving up" on Sano in these circumstances. 

 

"Treat people like criminals and you'll get criminal behavior." - I appreciate this sentiment. Still, I play devil's advocate: "behave criminally, get criminal treatment."

 

I think people who do what Sano is accused of doing should not be allowed to play in professional sports leagues. I would describe this as a consequence rather than a punishment. A suspension would be punishment, and I believe it implies tolerance. A consequence is a natural result of an action, and I think the natural result of Sano's actions and actions like it should be disallowal of participation. If you commit sexual assault, you don't get to be a MLB ball player anymore. The justice system may or may not be able to hold you accountable. If they are not, you will just have to be a regular guy with a regular job (like me- except I don't commit crimes) instead of being a professional athlete. I guess it seems severe because being a professional athlete is such a desirable thing to be, and if all of a sudden you just have to be regular that seems like a big fall. But really, being regular is just fine, and probably way better in lots of ways. Further, I think if you choose to punish someone, you are effectively (and often intentionally) shielding them from the natural consequences and the pain that accompanies them. I don't think that adults should ever be shielded from consequences (I would say that the punishments delivered by the justice system have more to do with reparation for victims and safety of the public and very very little to do with rehabilitation of the convicted). I think if someone is to learn and change, they need to suffer the painful effects of the consequences of their actions. If you care about Sano and Sano becoming a better person in regards to how he treats women, he needs to suffer the consequences of his actions. He will not change without it, he may not even change with it. 

 

I also want to contend that while I would describe Sano's reported behavior in Chattanooga as "disrespectful" the far more serious allegations of assault are not appropriately described as "disrespectful." "Disrespectful" is a gross understatement as a characterization of a sexual assault. Is it important to teach respect? Yes, very. The priority (in this instance and instances like it, collectively) is to control and stop malicious/dangerous behavior.

 

Jham, you described two different "messages of respect" and described them as being mutually exclusive. I would say that they are not mutually exclusive. I would say that you can say both messages, one after another: "respect women because they are worthy of respect" (or even better: respect women because it is right and good) and also "respect women or you'll be kicked out of the league" (or more accurately: whether or not you respect women, if you harass or assault them you will be disallowed from league participation).

 

No one is entitled to be a professional athlete. I don't think I would go as far as to say that it is a privilege. You have to be talented, which is chance, and you have to work extremely hard. You have to earn it. Professional athletes have society's admiration for both, but said admiration doesn't entitle them to anything.

 

Lastly, we are not demanding that men change. We are demanding that men not commit acts of violence and harassment against women- for many, this probably happens to be a change; for many more, it is not a change. The change we are demanding is that when men do commit acts of violence against women that they are stopped and held accountable and prevented from doing it again- held accountable by the law, by their employers/organizations, and by the public, by us. Specifically, I would like to demand a change in how professional sports leagues and their member organizations respond when one of these acts is committed by an individual man in their league. 

 

I don't know if I've read this in any of the threads yet, but it seems to me that because the behavior Sano is accused of occurred while he was performing his duties as a member of the Twins organization and MLB/MiLB (obviously in Chattanooga, and maybe at that autograph session) it has to be grounds for termination and dissolution of his contract- whether or not there are ever any legal proceedings. 

 

Jham, I appreciated your post, though I obviously disagreed with some aspects of it. It spurred me to voice some ideas in this whole thing I've been thinking hard about and wanted to get into this thread.

 

 

[Jham]

I'm about to disagree with some aspects of your post, but I want to start by saying that it's hard to find fault with any call for empathy for another person.

 

I think the concept of being a true fan is weird. I think it must have something to do with history, experience, loyalty, and commitment. I think for me, as you suggest, it must also have to do with an appreciation of the players as actual human beings. Along those lines, and probably also without ever having considered it before, for most of my life if someone had asked me if I were a true fan of the Twins, I would have said yes without hesitation.

 

I am one who has declared cessation of fanhood for Sano (so to speak) and have said that I am willing to go as far no longer watching the Twins if they continue to employ him. If this changes my status as a true fan, I guess I am okay with that. I don't think it's important to be a true fan, and maybe I think, even, that there might be something wrong with it.

 

I have the impression in general, that usually when calls for empathy for players are made, it is when they have done something pretty wrong and/or criminal and there is some semblance of their career being in jeopardy. Now, I'm going to drag the NFL into this. I do because in the NFL, there seems to be more instances of bad/criminal behavior by players than in the MLB but also because there is far more instances of peoples lives being ruined by their participation in the NFL than in the MLB. When Ben Rothlisberger and Joe Mixon have the empathy/patience/understanding of the NFL and its fans (and empathy is tangible here: it functionally manifests as being allowed make millions of $ playing ball in the NFL) but what seems like countless league alumni are suffering with dementia and prescription drug addiction without empathy/appreciation/compassion (empathy is tangible here also: it would functionally manifest as compensation, treatment, and policy for the well being of current players) the "empathy" for the criminal boys seems less like empathy and more like something... else. I don't really want to start a tangent about the NFL on this thread, it is just a more poignant example than the MLB of my suggestion that probably the vast majority of sports fans don't care about the players as individual human beings at all, and only evoke concepts of empathy and forgiveness and second chances when they somehow feel that something is at stake for themselves as fans (or fantasy sports players/gamblers). This feels pretty slimey to me.

 

Jham, I don't want to lump you in with those types of fans, and I didn't get that feeling from your post. It just reminded me of it.

 

I continue. The idea that what Sano is accused of doing can be (and often is in other similar and much worse circumstances) described as a mistake is bothersome to me. I would say that it is wrong. I think I know what a mistake is. I have made many mistakes in my life. For example, many times in my career as a carpenter I have pulled my tape measure from right to left, read the wrong side of the number due to the tape being upside down and resultantly cut the piece an inch short. This is a mistake. What Sano is accused of is a willful commission of an illegal, malicious, and dangerous action against another person. That is not a mistake or an error in judgement, and paired with the account from Chattanooga, it is a revelation of core character. I am glad that my former employers and current customers didn't/don't give up on me when I succumbed to the "old inch trick". Nevertheless, I feel totally comfortable "giving up" on Sano in these circumstances.

 

"Treat people like criminals and you'll get criminal behavior." - I appreciate this sentiment. Still, I play devil's advocate: "behave criminally, get criminal treatment."

 

I think people who do what Sano is accused of doing should not be allowed to play in professional sports leagues. I would describe this as a consequence rather than a punishment. A suspension would be punishment, and I believe it implies tolerance. A consequence is a natural result of an action, and I think the natural result of Sano's actions and actions like it should be disallowal of participation. If you commit sexual assault, you don't get to be a MLB ball player anymore. The justice system may or may not be able to hold you accountable. If they are not, you will just have to be a regular guy with a regular job (like me- except I don't commit crimes) instead of being a professional athlete. I guess it seems severe because being a professional athlete is such a desirable thing to be, and if all of a sudden you just have to be regular that seems like a big fall. But really, being regular is just fine, and probably way better in lots of ways. Further, I think if you choose to punish someone, you are effectively (and often intentionally) shielding them from the natural consequences and the pain that accompanies them. I don't think that adults should ever be shielded from consequences (I would say that the punishments delivered by the justice system have more to do with reparation for victims and safety of the public and very very little to do with rehabilitation of the convicted). I think if someone is to learn and change, they need to suffer the painful effects of the consequences of their actions. If you care about Sano and Sano becoming a better person in regards to how he treats women, he needs to suffer the consequences of his actions. He will not change without it, he may not even change with it.

 

I also want to contend that while I would describe Sano's reported behavior in Chattanooga as "disrespectful" the far more serious allegations of assault are not appropriately described as "disrespectful." "Disrespectful" is a gross understatement as a characterization of a sexual assault. Is it important to teach respect? Yes, very. The priority (in this instance and instances like it, collectively) is to control and stop malicious/dangerous behavior.

 

Jham, you described two different "messages of respect" and described them as being mutually exclusive. I would say that they are not mutually exclusive. I would say that you can say both messages, one after another: "respect women because they are worthy of respect" (or even better: respect women because it is right and good) and also "respect women or you'll be kicked out of the league" (or more accurately: whether or not you respect women, if you harass or assault them you will be disallowed from league participation).

 

No one is entitled to be a professional athlete. I don't think I would go as far as to say that it is a privilege. You have to be talented, which is chance, and you have to work extremely hard. You have to earn it. Professional athletes have society's admiration for both, but said admiration doesn't entitle them to anything.

 

Lastly, we are not demanding that men change. We are demanding that men not commit acts of violence and harassment against women- for many, this probably happens to be a change; for many more, it is not a change. The change we are demanding is that when men do commit acts of violence against women that they are stopped and held accountable and prevented from doing it again- held accountable by the law, by their employers/organizations, and by the public, by us. Specifically, I would like to demand a change in how professional sports leagues and their member organizations respond when one of these acts is committed by an individual man in their league.

 

I don't know if I've read this in any of the threads yet, but it seems to me that because the behavior Sano is accused of occurred while he was performing his duties as a member of the Twins organization and MLB/MiLB (obviously in Chattanooga, and maybe at that autograph session) it has to be grounds for termination and dissolution of his contract- whether or not there are ever any legal proceedings.

 

Jham, I appreciated your post, though I obviously disagreed with some aspects of it. It spurred me to voice some ideas in this whole thing I've been thinking hard about and wanted to get into this thread.

Sam, thanks for your response. I do regret using the term "true fans". Allegations like this sometimes brings out buzzards and the pitch fork crew. People who didn't like Sano/men/pro athletes/etc have an easy target.

 

I disagree on the privilege to play a sport and make a living. Why is a pro sport different than other professions? Should Sano be able to sell cars or insurance but not hit baseballs?

 

Completely agree on the NFL. That is a difficult sport to reconcile. So is boxing, horse racing, hunting, and Al Franken. Ultimately, we all tend to do whatever best alleviates our own feelings of guilt. But that doesn't necessarily effect the issue. Check out cognitive dissonance theory for further explanation.