General politics

[TheLeviathan]

It may not be analogous, but it's something to keep in mind when we ask a group to assimilate away from their own culture b/c that culture might have more violent imperative. There's plenty violent already about American identity, that I think calls for assimilation based on some supposed threat are made in bad faith.

 

IMO, it might just be better to call out the myth of assimilation. I still remember my great grandparents arguing in German. Plenty of these white Americans complaining are unlikely to find much first generation assimilation in their ancestors either.

[ewen21]

 

IMO, it might just be better to call out the myth of assimilation. I still remember my great grandparents arguing in German. Plenty of these white Americans complaining are unlikely to find much first generation assimilation in their ancestors either.

I very strongly doubt your grandparents came here and lived off the dole

[PseudoSABR]

 

IMO, it might just be better to call out the myth of assimilation. I still remember my great grandparents arguing in German. Plenty of these white Americans complaining are unlikely to find much first generation assimilation in their ancestors either.

Well, that is my larger point, and used the white-male mass-murder thing, as an example of that assimilation won't save us from violence...

[TheLeviathan]

I very strongly doubt your grandparents came here and lived off the dole

Does "assimilation" = "living off the dole"?

 

I'm confused by that shift.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I very strongly doubt your grandparents came here and lived off the dole

So now its not that they are violent but that they are living off the government?  Is this even true in regard to immigrants? (Refugees may get some assistance, but I thought happened more in terms of subsidizing their jobs). 

[Mr. Brooks]

Sure sounds like it, at least based on what he said. That's one. A terrible one, but one. It looks like you're arguing that the majority of mass murderers are motivated by white supremacy, and I don't think that's true.

 

And I'm interested in why you edited my post to exclude my question about approval. I take it you're admitting by that edit that there's at least one massive functional difference between radical Islamic terrorism and white supremacist hate crimes.

I didn't edit your post. I quoted you before you edited your post to add the second paragraph.

[ewen21]

 

Does "assimilation" = "living off the dole"?

I'm confused by that shift.

I've moved on, try to keep up.  I am guessing your answer to my question is NO.  But keep fixating on the semantics surrounding the word assimilation. 

 

One unique ability undocumented immigrants and refugees have is to get those benefits.  Your German grandparents didn't have such luxuries.  Nor did my Italian grandfather who emigrated at the turn of the century shortly before quotas were put on eastern European and southern Europeans.  

 

For you to liken your grandparents to say Somalian refugees who are getting all sorts of handouts is disgusting.  You should rethink that

[ewen21]

 

So now its not that they are violent but that they are living off the government?  Is this even true in regard to immigrants? (Refugees may get some assistance, but I thought happened more in terms of subsidizing their jobs). 

What the heck are you saying?  It has to be one or the other???

It is BOTH and then some.

 

And undocumented immigrants get driver's licenses, free hospital visits (thanks to medicare) and many don't pay taxes.  With regard to Somalian refugees they get quite the start up package 

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

What the heck are you saying?  It has to be one or the other???

It is BOTH and then some.

 

And undocumented immigrants get driver's licenses, free hospital visits (thanks to medicare) and many don't pay taxes.  With regard to Somalian refugees they get quite the start up package 

I think you're just making up the reasons the they should assimilate as you go along.  When violence didn't convince anyone, you went to: but they get handouts.

 

The conflation of immigrant and refugee is also pretty disturbing.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

I've moved on, try to keep up.  I am guessing your answer to my question is NO.  But keep fixating on the semantics surrounding the word assimilation. 

 

One unique ability undocumented immigrants and refugees have is to get those benefits.  Your German grandparents didn't have such luxuries.  Nor did my Italian grandfather who emigrated at the turn of the century shortly before quotas were put on eastern European and southern Europeans.  

 

For you to liken your grandparents to say Somalian refugees who are getting all sorts of handouts is disgusting.  You should rethink that

 

By definition, I can't keep up when you shift the goal posts.  I also did not play "semantics", I held you to what the word "assimilate" means by definition.  (And by how you used it in the context of your paragraphs)  And, as I said earlier, I just asked for clarification and you did the exact opposite of it.

 

You are racking up an impressive fallacies-per-words-typed stat right now though.

[ewen21]

 

By definition, I can't keep up when you shift the goal posts.  I also did not play "semantics", I held you to what the word "assimilate" means by definition.  (And by how you used it in the context of your paragraphs)  And, as I said earlier, I just asked for clarification and you did the exact opposite of it.

 

You are racking up an impressive fallacies-per-words-typed stat right now though.

Actually, I held you to the word assimilation after you "attempted" to hold me to it when I deflated your "how are they different from say Mormons" statement.  That is weak fluff and I dismantled it in post 1182 and 1183.  You just keep running misdirection because I hit one of your fastballs out of the park.

 

Happy St Patrick's Day and shame on you for lumping your German grandparents with Muslim interlopers

[TheLeviathan]

 

Actually, I held you to the word assimilation after you "attempted" to hold me to it when I deflated your "how are they different from say Mormons" statement.  That is weak fluff and I dismantled it in post 1182 and 1183.  You just keep running misdirection because I hit one of your fastballs out of the park.

 

Happy St Patrick's Day and shame on you for lumping your German grandparents with Muslim interlopers

 

I don't consider America a place where being Muslim makes you an "interloper".  Though, if so, that might make yet another similarity with my ancestors and current immigrants.  But, you keep hitting those fastballs bud.

[Badsmerf]

Actually, I held you to the word assimilation after you "attempted" to hold me to it when I deflated your "how are they different from say Mormons" statement. That is weak fluff and I dismantled it in post 1182 and 1183. You just keep running misdirection because I hit one of your fastballs out of the park.

 

Happy St Patrick's Day and shame on you for lumping your German grandparents with Muslim interlopers

Shame on him for lumping German immigrants.... who were coming from a country that started the world wars... to Muslim "interlopers?" I don't think you're capable of having a balanced discussion on this topic. You're mixing definitions and refusing to support your hateful words. Unlike Nazi Germany, Jihad is a miniscule sect of the Muslim religion. There were millions of Nazis, and I bet the US even took in a fair amount of them unbeknownst to us at the time.

 

Every concentrated population that has immigrated here has formed a community. Japanese, Irish, German, Polish, Cuban, Chinese, it really doesn't matter where they came from, they all have and continue to do so. The same animosity that you have for Somali immigrants were had for the Irish. Thing is, the second generations always just want to be normal Americans. You can see it with the Somalis even: the kids wear and do American things, the parents are still stuck culturally from where they came from.

 

I have a problem with how frivolous you use Muslim in a negative context. Muslims aren't the problem any more than any organized religion is. Instead of claiming how great your arguments are you should start supporting them.

[Mike Sixel]

I see no reason anyone should assimilate to be here. Maybe that fundamental disagreement is insurmountable.....

[PseudoSABR]

This opinion piece by Omar is behind the WP paywall, but it looks to be worth a look for those that can.

[TheLeviathan]

I agree with everything she said and it was a well done article.

 

What I don't see enough of is politicians willing to criticize both sides of this conflict as she suggests.  She has valid criticisms of Israel.  I hope, when it is appropriate, she also criticizes Palestine.  We have plenty of conservatives willing to put too much blame on one side and plenty of liberals willing to put too much blame on the other.  That doesn't mean the criticism has to be equal, it should be proportional to the offenses.  But it can't be silence on one side and deafening on the other.  That isn't productive.

 

I hope she is a leader in that regard.  It might be a breath of fresh air that allows us to change the way we talk about the conflict there.  

[Badsmerf]

I agree with everything she said and it was a well done article.

 

What I don't see enough of is politicians willing to criticize both sides of this conflict as she suggests. She has valid criticisms of Israel. I hope, when it is appropriate, she also criticizes Palestine. We have plenty of conservatives willing to put too much blame on one side and plenty of liberals willing to put too much blame on the other. That doesn't mean the criticism has to be equal, it should be proportional to the offenses. But it can't be silence on one side and deafening on the other. That isn't productive.

 

I hope she is a leader in that regard. It might be a breath of fresh air that allows us to change the way we talk about the conflict there.

Do you think there has been a void of neutral criticism? For the most part, I think the only bias criticism is pro Israel against Palestine. I see and read a lot of pieces that shine a light that isn't becoming of Israel, but isn't dismissive of Palestine.

 

Israel isn't infallible. They deserve our support as much as any of the NATO allies. The frosty relationship with the Obama and Netanyahu administrations had to do with their failure to keep their word, and lies that were easily discovered. Hopefully, new leadership can restore some credibility.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Do you think there has been a void of neutral criticism? 

 

I do, it splits along the ideological lines.  This issue (moreso than most) is not well suited for that.

[Badsmerf]

I do, it splits along the ideological lines. This issue (moreso than most) is not well suited for that.

Where is the bias Palestine coverage coming from? I see plenty of bias toward Israel, but anything critical of Israel is also critical of Palestine. I don't believe liberals or Democrats are anti Israel, but possibly more sympathetic to the reality of the region. For some strange reason, the gop/conservatives has aligned themselves almost completely with Israel... with the exception of a few.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I agree with everything she said and it was a well done article.

 

What I don't see enough of is politicians willing to criticize both sides of this conflict as she suggests.  She has valid criticisms of Israel.  I hope, when it is appropriate, she also criticizes Palestine.  We have plenty of conservatives willing to put too much blame on one side and plenty of liberals willing to put too much blame on the other.  That doesn't mean the criticism has to be equal, it should be proportional to the offenses.  But it can't be silence on one side and deafening on the other.  That isn't productive.

 

I hope she is a leader in that regard.  It might be a breath of fresh air that allows us to change the way we talk about the conflict there.  

I was able to read it at work; and I agree, a very measured and sober take, even if a bit abstract. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Where is the bias Palestine coverage coming from? I see plenty of bias toward Israel, but anything critical of Israel is also critical of Palestine. I don't believe liberals or Democrats are anti Israel, but possibly more sympathetic to the reality of the region. For some strange reason, the gop/conservatives has aligned themselves almost completely with Israel... with the exception of a few.

 

I disagree.  Look up the Chelsea Clinton incident and explore some of the Twitter takes.  

 

There is no right-wing radio equivalent for the left, but you want to see the underbelly....go check out twitter.  It's there.  It isn't a fringe either.  If it was, Pelosi wouldn't have had to thread the needle on that pointless resolution a few weeks back.

 

As a party, I'd agree, the Democrats are generally pretty rational on the subject.  I'd like to hear them speak that rationality to their base a bit more.  But maybe Chelsea Clinton is a warning on that, I don't know.

[Badsmerf]

I don't mess with Twitter, so that would explain it. That platform would be too intrusive into my life. I don't care to be on the cutting edge of any news that isn't about my family. Annnnnnyway.... at least they conversation is being had now and hopefully the American public will become more educated on what is going on over there.

[ewen21]

 

Where is the bias Palestine coverage coming from? I see plenty of bias toward Israel, but anything critical of Israel is also critical of Palestine. I don't believe liberals or Democrats are anti Israel, but possibly more sympathetic to the reality of the region. For some strange reason, the gop/conservatives has aligned themselves almost completely with Israel... with the exception of a few.

That most certainly isn't the case here.  Several pages ago I commented that one trait I liked about Israel is that they aren't targeting American citizens.  This was in the midst of a discussion that seemed to question why we 1) support Israel and 2) Israel's very existence.

 

 

 

 

 

[biggentleben]

 

Not so fast. Yes that's the narrative as most of us understand it today, but the reality is European countries decided to dump off their worldwide lands and rather than simply hand them off, they decided to make these arbitrary new nations.

 

The plan to create Israel predated WW2. Israel was created around the time England created Pakistan out of thin air, too. Most of Africa was carved up in bizarre ways as Europe pulled back.

 

All of these areas now suffer from the same strife.

 

Exactly. The creation of Israel was certainly in place before the end of WWII in Europe. It was discussed and put off by FDR's administration, on strong suggestion of his state department. Truman went completely against the same suggestion to throw the country's support behind Israel's creation. This was not a new idea.

[biggentleben]

 

Seems to me their objective is to inhabit the entire world and outnumber over else.  

 

....and there it is....

[biggentleben]

 

I don't see Mormons or any other "insular sect" of any religion declaring Jihad while mass emigrating around the world.

 

It's as simple as that.

 

History is a crazy subject...

[biggentleben]

 

Yes, factions of Islam are uniquely dangerous.  That does not mean all people who practice Islam should be feared or distrusted by you, an average citizen.

 

As someone who has had plenty of experience with various religions through social work and through study in seminary, you could insert "Christianity" "Judaism", "Taoism", "Buddhism" or any other major religion into the spots in this statement where Islam is stated, and it'd be as accurate.

[ewen21]

 

History is a crazy subject...

Please feel  free to give your historical (or hysterical) perspective on this matter.

[biggentleben]

 

I've moved on, try to keep up.  I am guessing your answer to my question is NO.  But keep fixating on the semantics surrounding the word assimilation. 

 

One unique ability undocumented immigrants and refugees have is to get those benefits.  Your German grandparents didn't have such luxuries.  Nor did my Italian grandfather who emigrated at the turn of the century shortly before quotas were put on eastern European and southern Europeans.  

 

For you to liken your grandparents to say Somalian refugees who are getting all sorts of handouts is disgusting.  You should rethink that

 

It's because of your grandparents and many others around the turn of the century that those benefits even exist, and most likely many of them received a government benefit formed in the heart of FDR's incredible answer to the church and society no longer taking care of the poor and needy. Those persons were often given a whole collection of things when they were received into the country. A tour of Ellis Island gives some amazing insight into just what was provided to people as they arrived in the country.

[ewen21]

 

As someone who has had plenty of experience with various religions through social work and through study in seminary, you could insert "Christianity" "Judaism", "Taoism", "Buddhism" or any other major religion into the spots in this statement where Islam is stated, and it'd be as accurate.

 

When he said "uniquely dangerous" what did you think he meant.

 

Honestly.  If you are going to say Buddhism and Islam are transposable terms you really are going to have to develop that.

 

There seems to be a want for people to say.....

"All religion is the same"

Where in the Buddhist doctrine does it call for a death sentence for those who leave Buddhism?  Do Buddhists (or Christians) want to burn cartoonists at the stake for unflattering depictions of their deity?  Where is the George Carlin in Islam ripping the church?  If he were a Muslim he'd have been beheaded.

 

Muslims would admit this.  Sharia Law is their choice and that is fine  Just don't impose that on me.  I am a free man and I reject it.  Maybe you want people's hands chopped off for stealing a candy bar (and it's a beautiful thing if you support that).  I am a little more easy going.

 

Just sayin