General politics

[Mike Sixel]

 

I refuse to believe that most of Trump's supporters are awful.
A decent chunk of that, sure, but if the number is 30%, I'd say maybe something like 8% are awful,unreachable people.
The rest, I think, are along for the ride.
Now, I admit, turning a blind eye to Trump's awfulness in the hopes of gaining what you're looking for is quite reckless in it's own right. But, I do think that most of those people COULD be reached.

We need to figure out how to connect with them, to convince them that they can be represented without resorting to a person like Trump, out of a perceived desperation.

Not saying that will be easy, or even that the DFL is capable of that any time soon. But I do think that needs to be the plan.

I just don't believe that 30% of the population are the same vile human as Trump.

The Democrats need to leave their comfort zone, get out to these rural and suburban areas, and talk to these people, and listen to them.
They won't be able to give them everything they want, I'm not saying abandon liberal principles. But find some common ground, reconsider policies that can be compromised on, reshape messaging when needed, and shape and stick to a plan to bring some of them into the fold.
Won't be able to get all of them, some will have hard policy issues that can't be compromised, but they don't need to get all of them.

 

I was thinking about this.....

 

Is it worse to be a racist OR

 

Worse to support racism so you can have more money?

 

I'm not actually sure which of those are worse people.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Honestly, I'm not so sure this is true.

 

I was talking to a friend (who happens to be a person of color) last weekend and he summed it up nicely.

 

Until now, it has been easy to democratically legislate oppression. White people, particularly white men, are losing that power by the day. So now, they're turning to non-democratic measures to keep the status quo... in essence, very little has changed except their ability to work within the system to achieve their long-standing goals so now they're stepping outside our democratic system to do it.

 

Put in that context, it's hard to say things are really worse (and in some ways are actually better) but things are going to get ugly in the near future.

 

IT seems easy in ND and NC to legislate oppression, not to mention gerrymandering. And, SCOTUS is tearing down the voting rights act, isn't it? It would have been hard to convince my liberal GOP '80s self that would ever happen.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Your post was clearly dismissive and mocking in tone.  I don't appreciate it, it's unnecessary.  So yes, I am not happy that you continue to use that kind of tone when the issue seems to stem from a lack of clarity from you.  There was absolutely no need to phrase your response the way you did but to take a shot at LaBombo, myself, or Psuedo.  I think many people have fairly tried to answer your questions, I don't think the tone of your responses is helpful to a discussion.

 

Now that you clarify what you want it actually makes me more upset you've been so derisive in response - do you think there is some kind of magic bullet out there for hatred and racism?  I mean, I'll be the first to admit that I don't have some grand, glorious strategy to remove hatred from the human heart.  If that's your goal and anything but an obvious, perfect solution is going to get sarcastic responses....well then I'm out.  I don't think there is an obvious, perfect solution.

 

I find the issue of hatred and racism, unfortunately, a part of humanity.  Has been forever.  I find it hard to envision eradicating it even though I share your goal.  So I can't possibly give you that clean, perfect answer you want.  If that's my failing, so be it, I'll accept it.  My answers to such a question will always be flawed and limited.  I wonder who could do any differently?

 

Given I've been asking how to do it, it seems unlikely I think there is some easy answer.....but if there isn't an answer, what do you do about it? 

[Mike Sixel]

Btw, I appreciate rpg.net and Penzey's for taking stances.......it's a good start.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Given I've been asking how to do it, it seems unlikely I think there is some easy answer.....but if there isn't an answer, what do you do about it? 

 

I think things are trending better, even if it may not feel like it now.  So I'm not sure we're quite ready to declare the last fifty years wasted for one. 

 

If we're trying to make the world a better place (I assume you mostly mean America) I think a great deal of that has to be done through law and policy.  And that requires winning elections.  So, whether it's incompetence, bad luck, or whatever, I do think it's important for Democrats to reverse the long-standing trends they have in failing to get out youths, blacks, and re-establishing their cred with blue collar people.  If that happens, I'd like to see the following things be high priorities:

 

1) Universal basic income

2) Education reform (I don't want federal control - imagine the nightmare that would be with Trump - but I do want federal oversight on dollars allocations)

 

I would aim there for two reasons - one of the reasons that you've hinted at as a cause of racism is a lack of education.  I agree with you.  It's also fundamental to the desperation so many black Americans are forced to grow up with.  The value of the property near you should not dictate your educational experiences.  That needs to stop.  A fundamental change there is a chance to narrow class gaps and offer more opportunity to all people.  

 

I think this could also combat the ease with which propaganda from the right infiltrates many poor white communities.  Education is the great neutralizer for the kind of manipulation.

 

And UBI would be another step in that direction.  Eliminate government programs that hand out assistance in clunky, stupid ways and just level the playing field.  

 

As for the hate in people's hearts?  I don't have a good solution to that.  I don't know how you force people to live an experience different than theirs.  I don't know how you teach empathy to some 40 year old white guy.  I think it helps to call out racists for what they are.  We can't allow dog whistling and subtle racism to escape scrutiny.  Past that....I have no idea.  I wish I did.

[Badsmerf]

Given I've been asking how to do it, it seems unlikely I think there is some easy answer.....but if there isn't an answer, what do you do about it?

 

Prevent a person like Trump ever being elected again. Democrats and Republicans should have a vetting process that weeds people like him out. Make him run as an independent. The ugly side of the gop has come out from hiding with Trump in power, because he empowers them. If someone like Jeb Bush or John Kasich had won, the narrative would be much different.

[Mike Sixel]

We agree on UBI and education reform, and I'd 100% add universal health care. Starting a business or two....it is impossible to get decent health care. That's not way to encourage entrepreneurs, or anyone.....but really I just want people to have access to healthcare.

 

As for the trend, Brazil's recent election doesn't help my mood.....too many nations are not moving forward. We'll see what happens at the state levels here in a couple weeks.....

[Badsmerf]

We agree on UBI and education reform, and I'd 100% add universal health care. Starting a business or two....it is impossible to get decent health care. That's not way to encourage entrepreneurs, or anyone.....but really I just want people to have access to healthcare.

 

As for the trend, Brazil's recent election doesn't help my mood.....too many nations are not moving forward. We'll see what happens at the state levels here in a couple weeks.....

Brazil has been a mess for a long time. A decade ago it was suppose to grow leaps and bounds. It hasn't, because the system is corrupt and hasn't been fixed. How confident are you in this election result? Even with this guy, Brazil shouldn't factor in much to your feelings about world politics.

[TheLeviathan]

 

We agree on UBI and education reform, and I'd 100% add universal health care. Starting a business or two....it is impossible to get decent health care. That's not way to encourage entrepreneurs, or anyone.....but really I just want people to have access to healthcare.

 

As for the trend, Brazil's recent election doesn't help my mood.....too many nations are not moving forward. We'll see what happens at the state levels here in a couple weeks.....

 

I didn't include single payer because I was trying to focus on the moral issues with racism and the repugnant behavior on the right.  I think single payer would make the world a better place for sure, but I was trying to focus on how to tear the foundation of ignorance out of parts of America.  The ignorance that fosters so much hate/fear/racism in our country.

 

I admit, I don't know if even major education reforms would fix such entrenched thinking.

[stringer bell]

There's an election in eight days which could and should recast some of the political balance in this country. I've gone from believing that a total repudiation of Trump Republicanism was possible to hoping that at least the Democrats could have a beachhead in the House and in the last couple of days I am starting to believe that there will be some substantial victories for those opposed to Trump.

 

Minnesota has four hot Congressional races, a warm Senate race and a so-so gubernatorial battle. It should be fun to watch on Election Night. The odds appear to favor Democrats in the US House and Republicans in the Senate, about the same odds for the underdogs as Donald Trump was facing two years ago. 

 

I'd love to see the election mark the high point of tribalism and partisan rancor, but with the man in the White House, I can't see much much civility any time soon. In my opinion, the Republicans have failed to govern and enabled the uninformed, uncaring, narcissist in the White House. It is time to show them the door.

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Brazil has been a mess for a long time. A decade ago it was suppose to grow leaps and bounds. It hasn't, because the system is corrupt and hasn't been fixed. How confident are you in this election result? Even with this guy, Brazil shouldn't factor in much to your feelings about world politics.

 

It's not just Brazil.....and it isn't just who wins. All the conservative parties (at national levels) seem to be nominating racist, xenophobes......where is the conservative party that believes in whatever, but isn't racist at the top (the top is where the populism comes in, imo...where you see how large swaths really feel)? 

[Vanimal46]

That is a major reach. Texas won't be a viable opportunity for a while, but we'll get a peak at how close it is. Of course, a huge turnout would win for Beto.

I love Beto and what he stands for... Lots of people in Austin particularly believe in him where he set the record in donations for his campaign. None that are from corporations, the way it should be.

 

The blue dot will continue to grow with more transplants moving to the state. Unfortunately the sea of red on the outskirts of major cities and by the panhandle is still too deep.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I love Beto and what he stands for... Lots of people in Austin particularly believe in him where he set the record in donations for his campaign. None that are from corporations, the way it should be.

The blue dot will continue to grow with more transplants moving to the state. Unfortunately the sea of red on the outskirts of major cities and by the panhandle is still too deep.

 

Much like many states....the huge majority of landmass is GOP, the huge majority of cities is not, or trending not. MN and OR are for sure....

[Mr. Brooks]

China just reversed a 25 year old ban on rhino horn and tiger bone. Sadly, I'd bet that spells the end for those two animals on our planet.

[Badsmerf]

China just reversed a 25 year old ban on rhino horn and tiger bone. Sadly, I'd bet that spells the end for those two animals on our planet.

That is a shame. Rhinos are being driven to extinction by poaching, and tigers are losing more habitat every day.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

China just reversed a 25 year old ban on rhino horn and tiger bone. Sadly, I'd bet that spells the end for those two animals on our planet.

Awesome, because we all know how useful both animals are for harvesting.

[Brock Beauchamp]

A little bit of evidence that the court is still non-partisan and takes its job seriously:

 

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/03/663887560/young-activists-can-sue-government-over-climate-change-supreme-court-says

[gunnarthor]

 

A little bit of evidence that the court is still non-partisan and takes its job seriously:

 

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/03/663887560/young-activists-can-sue-government-over-climate-change-supreme-court-says

Nope. The actual decision isn't nearly as hopeful as that sounds.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/02/politics/climate-change-children-trial-supreme-court/index.html

 

"The court went out of its way to stress that the government can still try to stop this case from going forward," said Steve Vladeck, CNN Supreme Court analyst and a professor at the University of Texas law school. "The court appears to have coalesced around a narrow compromise to defuse, for the moment, major litigation against the Trump administration."

[Vanimal46]

I still need to see another 125 campaign ads on TV before making a decision on who to vote for....

 

 

Said no one ever.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I still need to see another 125 campaign ads on TV before making a decision on who to vote for....


Said no one ever.

 

We vote by mail, or dropping your ballot in a designated box (libraries and other spots). If you vote by mail, it pretty much had to be in Friday, or it likely won't be counted. I still get texts and robo calls.....you know, pretty much after more than 35% of the state has voted.....

[Vanimal46]

We vote by mail, or dropping your ballot in a designated box (libraries and other spots). If you vote by mail, it pretty much had to be in Friday, or it likely won't be counted. I still get texts and robo calls.....you know, pretty much after more than 35% of the state has voted.....

Yeah I voted early, yet still get the robo calls and texts. I've blocked more numbers in the last 2 weeks than I have in my life since getting a cell phone. They're relentless.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Yeah I voted early, yet still get the robo calls and texts. I've blocked more numbers in the last 2 weeks than I have in my life since getting a cell phone. They're relentless.

 

I can't block numbers, since I sometimes answer calls for my wife's business......sigh.

[Squirrel]

I can't block numbers, since I sometimes answer calls for my wife's business......sigh.

Well, you could block them after you’ve answered and discovered it was worthless to have answered because they aren’t a potential client.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Well, you could block them after you’ve answered and discovered it was worthless to have answered because they aren’t a potential client.

 

true, I just don't......most of them are spoofed numbers anyway, and they'll just spoof a different number next time....

[Squirrel]

true, I just don't......most of them are spoofed numbers anyway, and they'll just spoof a different number next time....

I still have a landline ... I have my reasons ... but I rarely answer. One of the names I get on the caller ID says ‘Not in service’ ... if it’s not in service, how are they calling?

 

But this is off topic.

 

Vote if you haven’t already! The cynic in me says it won’t matter that it’s already been ‘fixed.’

[gunnarthor]

Continuing the off topic thread, I got a text from someone urging me to vote for Jim Hagedorn on the day of the Pittsburgh shooting. Usually I just delete the tweets but I did respond to that one, telling them how awful they were and I'd never vote for the GOP again. I'm sure it was just a robot text so no one read my reply but it felt good to send it.

[gunnarthor]

John Oliver had a good segment on family separation to remind us all how vile and inhumane our government has become.

 

 

 

In case you don't want to watch all of it, go to the 15:30 mark to see how this really affects children.

[Badsmerf]

I've long believed our government should be sued over climate change. I'd love to see the arguments the Trump administration makes on this. I'd like to think it would settle it once and for all, but I'm sure people will find a way to spin it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

John Oliver had a good segment on family separation to remind us all how vile and inhumane our government has become.

 

 

 

In case you don't want to watch all of it, go to the 15:30 mark to see how this really affects children.

I've spent the past six months watching a five year old meltdown in confusion, anger, and fear, shouting/crying exactly these kinds of things.

 

The amount of anger that video stirred in me is... substantial.

[gunnarthor]

 

I've spent the past six months watching a five year old meltdown in confusion, anger, and fear, shouting/crying exactly these kinds of things.

 

The amount of anger that video stirred in me is... substantial.

I spent the weekend at a CLE event sponsored by the U of MN law school. The keynote speaker was Lee Gelernt, the ACLU attorney who lead the litigation in the family separation case. It was heartbreaking. They had talked to the American Pediatrics Association as well as child physiologists who all explained that the trauma of separation would have lasting impact on these kids. The impact would be long-lasting feelings of vulnerability; thinking that they were worthless and not loved by their parents; isolation and depression. He mentioned how much the govt fought back against the ACLU - at one point saying if the ACLU wanted to find the kids, they should look for them themselves and leave the govt out of it. The judge was not happy with that argument.

 

If the Dems manage to ever get back into power, and it looks like they'll at least have the House, I would expect that they'll use their position to do a lot of investigations into the family separation to find out who ordered what, who opposed it, etc. Hopefully, someone will be held accountable for this hell they created.