Go get Verlander

[Major League Ready]

 

I imagine you wrote off the Twins last summer too.

Either way, I have no interest in watching the Twins decide “we’re not contenders now, nor will we be in the next few years.” I want them to do what it takes to BE contenders. If Buxton/Sano are busts, oh well. We’re in big trouble anyway, and the road to a WS is long no matter if they “build the farm” or not.

Realmuto fits on this team. Other that Lewis, anyone in the farm should be available to go get him. That’s exactly what real big league teams do. They get good players. In every way, not just by waiting for their farm system to poop them out.

I am not going to look but didnt you say the same thing about LuCroy. That would have been an absolute disaster. Where did you stand on Tulo. That would have been the disaster of all disasters.

[alarp33]

Washington wasn't willing to trade either, much less both. I suspect any such demands from Miami were posturing rather than negotiation, and not really reflective of what an actual return would need to look like. I don't think they'd actually nickel and dime the Twins if we really offered Lewis and Kirilloff (not that I advocate such an offer).

Lucroy was a year closer to FA, 3 years older, had a limited no trade which limited his market, and brought back 2 top 50 prospects. I’d be very surprised if Lewis and Kiriloff alone got a deal done right now.

 

And if you aren’t willing to include Lewis (where I would fall in) I can’t even imagine the price. Gordon, Kiriloff, Romero and ?. No matter what the price today would be, that is a farm system crippling deal for 1 player that doesn’t bring you into a serious contention window

[Major League Ready]

 

No. That's not true. They are in position to trade for guys with multiple years of control. And, stating that you know people's intention, and assuming they have bad intentions? Well played.

MLR had argued against signing big time free agents, ever. People here are arguing against trading legit prospects, ever. Just a few posts up.

You need to pay attention if you are going to claim to know my position. Paying for multiple years beyond a players prime is my objection. That has been the marketplace and guess what? The rest of the league has figured out it is an incredibly bad strategy. Do I really need to list all the mega failures and the majority that are complete failures are mediocre value. 

 

I would absolutely support a run at Machado if the contract does not run past age 35. Odds are better when it's not a pitcher and he is in excellent condition. Worst case scenario he ends up at 1st but he can likely stick at 3B for most of his career.

 

The more accurate portrayal of my position on elite free agents is basically how hard is it to figure out you are going to lose a bidding war with a team with far more financial resource? Not to mention the players prefer the major markets. 

 

The other thing I have not been able to get through to you is that high performing players on cost controlled contracts enable a lower revenue team like the Twins to compete for free agents. It not only makes no sense to pull this trigger until you have those players in place, it assures you likely won't get to that point. Houston was at that point. I thought they did a masterful job. I keep asking you and others how this team can be considered to be at that point where another piece or two makes us true contenders. You keep saying how long do we have to wait. Go ahead and complain that it has taken to long to get there but how long it has been is absolutely irrelevant to when a team should start trading top prospects.

[alarp33]

Reminds me of the "can't mortgage the future" BS Terry Ryan threw out there during the 2006 season. we could have easily dished off Slowey for a veteran bat to give that team some teeth. I am a big believer that if you have enough young players having success in 2006 you HAVE TO trade assets in the farm system to attempt to make a serious run and getting to the WS. Strike when the iron is hot and this team never EVER did that.

 

Instead we had Eeyore for a GM

Are you comparing this years team to the 2006 team? You can’t see a difference in team makeup or closeness to title contention?

If you are not making any parallels between the situations, I agree wholeheartedly. Terry Ryan totally messed up the championship window of the mid to late 2000s teams

[Mike Sixel]

I am not going to look but didnt you say the same thing about LuCroy. That would have been an absolute disaster. Where did you stand on Tulo. That would have been the disaster of all disasters.

To be clear, if someone is every wrong, they are always wrong? Is that the implication of this?

 

He was right about Verlander, and Realmuto will be great for the next two plus years.

 

And, he's not just a one sided guy, like some here. When the twins are bad, he does advocate improving the farm....

 

We are years behind Houston and the Cubs now.... And the Sox and Detroit are not going to sit around...

 

Cleveland has sustained success? How long have they been good?

[alarp33]

I’ve written that “building the farm” is a completely meaningless term. Everyone builds the farm. The Twins will build the farm with 25 or so new players in the coming days.

 

What you are advocating is trading away major league players for minor league players.

 

I have zero interest in that.

 

And by the way, if trading for Realmuto “empties the farm” then the Twins have no farm anyway.

 

And to end this, where it started, the Twins should have tried hard to trade for Verlander last summer. They’d be better off today. They should be looking into trading for Realmuto today. They should look to acquire any good major league player that circumstance has put into play. Good major league players are what you HOPE those precious minor leaguers become some day. Let someone else play for 2021.

The Twins should fill their team with good players. Got it, we agree.

 

If only this were fantasy baseball and you could just build an all star team through trades

[Mike Sixel]

You need to pay attention if you are going to claim to know my position. Paying for multiple years beyond a players prime is my objection. That has been the marketplace and guess what? The rest of the league has figured out it is an incredibly bad strategy. Do I really need to list all the mega failures and the majority that are complete failures are mediocre value.

 

I would support a run at Machado if the contract does not run past age 35. Odds are better when it's not a pitcher and he is in excellent condition. Worst case scenario he ends up at 1st but he can likely stick at 3B for most of his career.

 

The more accurate portrayal of my position on elite free agents is basically how hard is it to figure out you are going to lose a bidding war with a team with far more financial resource? Not to mention the players prefer the major markets.

The Yankees just traded for Stanton, so I'm not sure what the league has figured out.

[Mike Sixel]

The Twins should fill their team with good players. Got it, we agree.

 

If only this were fantasy baseball and you could just build an all star team through trades

Again, zero people are saying that. Zero.

[alarp33]

Again, zero people are saying that. Zero.

Did you not read the post I quoted? It literally is saying it doesn’t matter if the Twins are good or not, they should trade for as many good players as possible.

[Major League Ready]

 

To be clear, if someone is every wrong, they are always wrong? Is that the implication of this?

He was right about Verlander, and Realmuto will be great for the next two plus years.

And, he's not just a one sided guy, like some here. When the twins are bad, he does advocate improving the farm....

We are years behind Houston and the Cubs now.... And the Sox and Detroit are not going to sit around...

Cleveland has sustained success? How long have they been good?

So what if Realmuto is great and the team is 500. Somehow you consistently fail to see the failure in trading away the players necessary to get the team to contention status. Then, trade prospects when it will actually make you a contender. If you plan is to get a little better now and hurt your chances of becoming an actual contender then go ahead and make this type of deal.

 

Compare Cleveland to KC and Cleveland has a chance to remain good for several years. AFter 20 years of sucking and getting high draft picks, KC managed to make their window as short as possible.

[alarp33]

To be clear, if someone is every wrong, they are always wrong? Is that the implication of this?

 

He was right about Verlander, and Realmuto will be great for the next two plus years.

 

And, he's not just a one sided guy, like some here. When the twins are bad, he does advocate improving the farm....

 

We are years behind Houston and the Cubs now.... And the Sox and Detroit are not going to sit around...

 

Cleveland has sustained success? How long have they been good?

Right about Verlander? The guy with a no trade who there was 0 indication would’ve been interested in coming here to chase a wild card. Ok

 

We are years behind Hou and Chi but people are wrong saying making a monster trade for Realmuto today makes very little sense. Hmm, ok.

 

I’m not sure I understand your argument at all. Are the Twins contenders, is Realmuto is the only path to contention? Help me out

[Otto von Ballpark]

Lucroy was a year closer to FA, 3 years older, had a limited no trade which limited his market, and brought back 2 top 50 prospects. I’d be very surprised if Lewis and Kiriloff alone got a deal done right now.

 

 

Lucroy was paired with Jeffress, who at the time was a pretty good closer. Plus, Lucroy only went to the Rangers after a he vetoed a deal to Cleveland which would have only returned one top 100 prospect. So, it's complicated.

 

Also your original post didn't say Lewis and Kirilloff alone, but rather said it would take 1-2 "very good" pieces in addition to them. I suppose that is subjective, but I have a hard time seeing the Marlins hanging up if Lewis and Kirilloff are indeed on the table together. I think any additional pieces would be fairly modest (Garver? one of the AAA starters? or a lotto ticket?).

 

But I'll drop it since I'm not advocating it or anything.

[alarp33]

Lucroy was paired with Jeffress, who at the time was a pretty good closer. Plus, Lucroy only went to the Rangers after a he vetoed a deal to Cleveland which would have only returned one top 100 prospect. So, it's complicated.

 

Also your original post didn't say Lewis and Kirilloff alone, but rather said it would take 1-2 "very good" pieces in addition to them. I suppose that is subjective, but I have a hard time seeing the Marlins hanging up if Lewis and Kirilloff are indeed on the table together. I think any additional pieces would be fairly modest (Garver? one of the AAA starters? or a lotto ticket?).

 

But I'll drop it since I'm not advocating it or anything.

Yeah clearly none of us have any idea what it will take, but I think it’s fair to say it will be a substantial return the Marlins get

[ewen21]

 

Are you comparing this years team to the 2006 team? You can’t see a difference in team makeup or closeness to title contention?
If you are not making any parallels between the situations, I agree wholeheartedly. Terry Ryan totally messed up the championship window of the mid to late 2000s teams

What???  I was speaking only theoretically.

 

Then again, this was about when that team made it's run.  Do I think this team will do the same?  Not hardly.

[jimmer]

People can say we should have pushed hard for Verlander last year all they want. As if doing so would have actually gotten us Verlander. It wouldn't have cause no way he waves his no trade clause to go to a team that wasn't built up enough to be a true contender. He was only going to accept a trade to a team that had a strong chance to win it all. We were not that kind of team and still arent. He accepted the trade to the team that could win it all. And that's what happened.

 

So keep pushing that as a realistic option as a way to slam the FO. It's not.

[USAFChief]

People can say we should have pushed hard for Verlander last year all they want. As if doing so would have actually gotten us Verlander. It wouldn't have cause no way he waves his no trade clause to go to a team that wasn't built up enough to be a true contender. He was only going to accept a trade to a team that had a strong chance to win it all. We were not that kind of team and still arent. He accepted the trade to the team that could win it all. And that's what happened.

 

So keep pushing that as a realistic option as a way to slam the FO. It's not.

Neither of us know if Verlander would have agreed.

 

That's completely irrelevant to the discussion of whether the Twins should have pursued him, or similar trades.

[old nurse]

 

Reminds me of the "can't mortgage the future" BS Terry Ryan threw out there during the 2006 season.  we could have easily dished off Slowey for a veteran bat to give that team some teeth.  I am a big believer that if you have enough young players having success in 2006 you HAVE TO trade assets in the farm system to attempt to make a serious run and getting to the WS.  Strike when the iron is hot and this team never EVER did that.

 

Instead we had Eeyore for a GM

At the start of 2006 Slowey was not even ranked as a good prospect by the services that rank prospects. Slowey would have gotten the team something like Shea Hillenbrand

[Otto von Ballpark]

Neither of us know if Verlander would have agreed.

 

That's completely irrelevant to the discussion of whether the Twins should have pursued him, or similar trades.

Verlander barely waived his no-trade to go to Houston, which had the best record in the AL. Reports suggested he was holding out to go to the defending champion Cubs until the last second. The Twins weren't even the 2nd wild card favorite until pretty late in the process. I think it is fair to conclude he wasn't coming here at that time.

[old nurse]

 

Neither of us know if Verlander would have agreed.

That's completely irrelevant to the discussion of whether the Twins should have pursued him, or similar trades.

I think the goalpost shifted. Just as no one knows if Verlander would have accepted a trade here, no one knows what trades were discussed by the Twins management. There are the trades that happened, that is known, but not the ones that were discussed. As about every team in the AL was still in theoretical contention the pool of player like a verlamder were pretty small.  Darvish could have had the same thread along with many of the same arguments. When there is not a lot to trade for out there, the coulda, shoulda conversation  gets a little different.

[Otto von Ballpark]

At the start of 2006 Slowey was not even ranked as a good prospect by the services that rank prospects. Slowey would have gotten the team something like Shea Hillenbrand

Bobby Abreu was still quite good in 2006, and was traded at the deadline with a SP for 4 prospects no better than Slowey. Of course, that was more of a money deal, but like Thome around the same time, I think he could have been a wise investment for those Twins.

[Mike Sixel]

I think the goalpost shifted. Just as no one knows if Verlander would have accepted a trade here, no one knows what trades were discussed by the Twins management. There are the trades that happened, that is known, but not the ones that were discussed. As about every team in the AL was still in theoretical contention the pool of player like a verlamder were pretty small.  Darvish could have had the same thread along with many of the same arguments. When there is not a lot to trade for out there, the coulda, shoulda conversation  gets a little different.

What we do know is that they didn't. And the previous GM never made trades like that. And the one GM that did was fired. Until they break years of not doing something, it's hard to believe anything has changed. Also I don't care if they try to improve the team I care if they do improve the team.

 

We also don't know, yet, if Darvish is a bust for sure. And even if he is, if you refuse to sign or trade people out of fear, you just aren't going to sign expensive people.

[TheLeviathan]

 

What we do know is that they didn't. And the previous GM never made trades like that. And the one GM that did was fired. Until they break years of not doing something, it's hard to believe anything has changed. Also I don't care if they try to improve the team I care if they do improve the team.

We also don't know, yet, if Darvish is a bust for sure. And even if he is, if you refuse to sign or trade people out of fear, you just aren't going to sign expensive people.

 

The more this case is used as an example the less credible the criticisms become.

[old nurse]

 

Bobby Abreu was still quite good in 2006, and was traded at the deadline with a SP for 4 prospects no better than Slowey. Of course, that was more of a money deal, but like Thome around the same time, I think he could have been a wise investment for those Twins.

he was looking for a RH bat, Abreu was left

[Otto von Ballpark]

he was looking for a RH bat, Abreu was left

The poster here just said "veteran bat" and when Jason Tyner is your DH, you can't afford to be too choosey. I'd take a left handed Abreu over a right handed Nevin any day.

[old nurse]

 

 

What we do know is that they didn't. And the previous GM never made trades like that. And the one GM that did was fired. Until they break years of not doing something, it's hard to believe anything has changed. Also I don't care if they try to improve the team I care if they do improve the team.

We also don't know, yet, if Darvish is a bust for sure. And even if he is, if you refuse to sign or trade people out of fear, you just aren't going to sign expensive people.

Darvish as a bust is irrelevant as he was a free agent at the end of the season. That would have nothing to do with a deadline trade.  The previous general manager is now a scout for the Phillies. Get over what he did or did not do. I

[old nurse]

 

The poster here just said "veteran bat" and when Jason Tyner is your DH, you can't afford to be too choosey. I'd take a left handed Abreu over a right handed Nevin any day.

Ooops, I read it wrong. There were quite a few left hand rental bats available for less than Slowey.

[ewen21]

 

At the start of 2006 Slowey was not even ranked as a good prospect by the services that rank prospects. Slowey would have gotten the team something like Shea Hillenbrand

He would have been a good pickup for the 2006 team but Gardy was so enamored with Punto 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Houston gave up their 3, 9, and 11 ranked prospects for Verlander (rankings per MLB). Not only did that trade not cripple Houston's system, but those prospects aren't doing well yet in Detroit. Houston did offer to take most of Verlander's salary. That was perhaps what a rebuilding Detroit was looking for. Those who say these types of trades cannot be done by this team are mistaken.

[old nurse]

 

He would have been a good pickup for the 2006 team but Gardy was so enamored with Punto 

In 2006 Punto played all over the field rather than just 1b and 3b. They had similar woba,  Punto produced 3.6 fwar to Shea's -.1. I would not have disagreewd with moving Punto after that season if there was another team that thought he could ever reproduce that.

[ewen21]

 

In 2006 Punto played all over the field rather than just 1b and 3b. They had similar woba,  Punto produced 3.6 fwar to Shea's -.1. I would not have disagreewd with moving Punto after that season if there was another team that thought he could ever reproduce that.

We could have used another professional hitter to lengthen that lineup