Twins option Mejia to AAA, put Haley on DL

[Mike Sixel]

 

What it tells me is, after he crapped the bed in 2016, they are going to be very careful with him. We have a winning record, no need to rush him at this time.

 

 

What does "very careful" mean, do you think? How long would he have to be the best IL AAA pitcher to be called up, to protect him from whatever they are protecting him from? 

[yarnivek1972]

As I have stated, one of the major issues in rebuilding is finding the 99% and getting the 1% to replace them. If you fiddle fart around without making commitments it just delays the time in finding the player that will work out.

 

I point this out over and over again. IN 1982 the original Twins center fielder was Jim Eisenreich. The Twins promoted Eisenreich from A- baseball with only 1.5 years of minor league experience. Could you imagine if the Twins then would have followed the path they use with their current prospects like Mitch Garver? Instead of debuting at 23, he would have been 25-26. I guess the argument might be maybe he would have overcome his issues, but the real point is that by the time they worked out Eisenreich, it would have been 1987 and Puckett woudl still be waiting his chance behind him, slowly moving through the minors.

 

A guy like Kent Hrbek was brought up to the Twins rfrom A+ ball as a 21 year old. As a 24 year old in 1984 Hrbek finished 2nd in the MVP balloting.....in the modern Twins system he probably would have been bouncing back and forth between AA and AAA at that age.

The only reason Hrbek was in A ball all of 1981 is because Scott Ullger was stuck at AA for 3 years.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

As I have stated, one of the major issues in rebuilding is finding the 99% and getting the 1% to replace them.  If you fiddle fart around without making commitments it just delays the time in finding the player that will work out.  

 

I point this out over and over again. IN 1982 the original Twins center fielder was Jim Eisenreich.  The Twins promoted Eisenreich from A- baseball with only 1.5 years of minor league experience.  Could you imagine if the Twins then would have followed the path they use with their current prospects like Mitch Garver?  Instead of debuting at 23, he would have been 25-26.  I guess the argument might be maybe he would have overcome his issues, but the real point is that by the time they worked out Eisenreich, it would have been 1987 and Puckett woudl still be waiting his chance behind him, slowly moving through the minors.

 

A guy like Kent Hrbek was brought up to the Twins rfrom A+ ball as a 21 year old.   As a 24 year old in 1984 Hrbek finished 2nd in the MVP balloting.....in the modern Twins system he probably would have been bouncing back and forth between AA and AAA at that age.

I'm neither condemning nor praising the Twins' system but the game of baseball was a very different beast three and a half decades ago. It was somewhat commonplace for prospects to spend only a year in the minors or not even go to the minors at all (Winfield).

 

Now it's news if a guy reaches the majors at age 20. The game has improved and sped up to the point where only the absolute best prospects can play at age 21 and even then, most of them scuffle for some time.

[Thrylos]

 

by the way, I looked in it appears like you can assigned employer to the minor leagues for rehabilitation for up to 20 days when they were originally put on the 10 day DL.  Adrianza has  in 6 games in Rochester and I think played three in extended spring training before that so he's been "rehabilitating" for about 10 days, maybe a couple more. Looks like the decision on him doesn't have to come until at least next week. 

 

EST does not count as a rehabilitation assignment, since it does not have a formal roster or even formal games (they don't keep score or stats   ).  The clock starts with the Rochester assignment

[KirbyDome89]

The Twins win/loss record shouldn't dictate when prospects move up. If they're ready and they offer an improvement over what the MLB team currently has then they should be up. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

EST does not count as a rehabilitation assignment, since it does not have a formal roster or even formal games (they don't keep score or stats ). The clock starts with the Rochester assignment

Adrianza actually started his rehab assignment at high-A a few days before Rochester, April 21. So we will need to make a decision on him no later than May 11th.

[yarnivek1972]

EST does not count as a rehabilitation assignment, since it does not have a formal roster or even formal games (they don't keep score or stats ). The clock starts with the Rochester assignment

Didn't he play 3 games with the Miracle prior to moving up to Rochester?

[mlhouse]

 

Player development has changed a little bit in 35 years.

 

 

Not really.  Same minor league structure.  I guess what I would say has changed is our system isn't very good.  Our players are arriving at teh major league level, despite very conservative movement through the system, not well prepared.

[mlhouse]

 

Nothing personal against those guys, but meh.

 

 

Not supposed to be a major step.  But these guys have paid their dues through our minor league system, and put up decent numbers at most of their stops.  Why not give them a chance instead of all of these wash outs from other teams system?   I would prefer to see what Hilderberger performs at the major league level than the crap the management brings up.

 

Give him 30 appearances.  See how he does.  If he sucks, well, his career has topped out.  If he does better than what is expected, then keep giving him the ball.  There really isn't much to lose, is there?

[Linus]

Not supposed to be a major step. But these guys have paid their dues through our minor league system, and put up decent numbers at most of their stops. Why not give them a chance instead of all of these wash outs from other teams system? I would prefer to see what Hilderberger performs at the major league level than the crap the management brings up.

 

Give him 30 appearances. See how he does. If he sucks, well, his career has topped out. If he does better than what is expected, then keep giving him the ball. There really isn't much to lose, is there?

Sure there is. We are soon going to be 3 games over 500. Play to win.

[mlhouse]

 

The only reason Hrbek was in A ball all of 1981 is because Scott Ullger was stuck at AA for 3 years.

 You realize that you are pretty much full of crap, right?  Hrbek went Rk as 19, A- as 20 and A+ as 21 year old, getting the call up from Visilia in 1981.  In 1982 he played the full season with the Twins and never returned to minor league baseball.  So, I guess there is a chance that he could have moved up to AA instead of A+.  They moved Gaetti, Hrbek's teammate at Wisconsin Rapids in A- ball to AA but he was a college draftee instead of a HS draftee, and regardless, Ulger only played 21 games at 1B at AA in 1981, so, nice try yarni....

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Not really.  Same minor league structure.  I guess what I would say has changed is our system isn't very good.  Our players are arriving at teh major league level, despite very conservative movement through the system, not well prepared.

Good lord, no. The minor league system has drastically changed. Here's a list of players who skipped MiLB entirely. Notice what happened after the 70s.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_baseball_players_who_went_directly_to_Major_League_Baseball

 

It's a different game. Pay raises, Latin America, and Asia have drastically changed the game of baseball. In the 70s, an acceptable fastball was 88mph. Today, it's 92mph. It's a wildly different game.

[yarnivek1972]

You realize that you are pretty much full of crap, right? Hrbek went Rk as 19, A- as 20 and A+ as 21 year old, getting the call up from Visilia in 1981. In 1982 he played the full season with the Twins and never returned to minor league baseball. So, I guess there is a chance that he could have moved up to AA instead of A+. They moved Gaetti, Hrbek's teammate at Wisconsin Rapids in A- ball to AA but he was a college draftee instead of a HS draftee, and regardless, Ulger only played 21 games at 1B at AA in 1981, so, nice try yarni....

Huh. I knew Ullger was primarily a first baseman and that 1981 was his third season at AA. I actually never looked up how many games he played at a particular position. But it was actually something called Lance Hallberg who was the primary first baseman for Orlando in 1981. Also in his 3rd season at AA. Also another nobody. Also someone who probably should have been released so Hrbek could play at AA in the second half of 1981 in AA.

 

The Minnesota Twins. 4 decades of keeping 25 year olds around to play in AA.

[mlhouse]

 

Good lord, no. The minor league system has drastically changed. Here's a list of players who skipped MiLB entirely. Notice what happened after the 70s.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_baseball_players_who_went_directly_to_Major_League_Baseball

 

It's a different game. Pay raises, Latin America, and Asia have drastically changed the game of baseball. In the 70s, an acceptable fastball was 88mph. Today, it's 92mph. It's a wildly different game.

 

Everything is relative.  While the fastball is faster, the hitters are bigger, bat speeds are quicker.

 

Regardless, using a list of players that went directly to MLB as some sort of proof is meaningless.  First, any player going directly to the majors in the 1950's, like Harmon Killebrew needs to be discounted because of the "Baby Bonus" rules of the day requiring players receiving bonuses to go directly to the majors.  

 

Since then, most of the guys that went directly to MLB without minor league experience were college level players.  And no one would argue with most of the results of those players.  

 

But everything is relative.  For teh TWins, if we drafted a college player with our first overall selection this June I would see no problem with bringing him up directly to the major league team given the right circumstance.  I would not do that for every player.  

 

The one aspect aspect that I think my approach is the correct one is the fact that the Twins approach, which you are advocating, has not worked.  You can make points about "baseball being different" and the like, but we have been bad for 6 years, we have had top of the draft selections, and our roster although spotted with some prospects from teh system, has holes all over the place and some of the better performers are older players like Ervin Santana who do not figure to play prominant roles when this team is finally truly competitive.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Hitters aren't bigger at 20 years old. That's kind of my point.

 

You're using outdated comparisons of a talented hitter like Hrbek to justify a decision of Mitch-freakin-Garver.

 

It's fine to want Garver here. I get it. But your argument falls flat for a myriad of reasons. The game isn't the same as the comparisons you've used. The Twins are likely going to be 14-11 in a few minutes. We don't know much about Garver's defense. Until recently, he was a middling hitter and he's far from a blue chipper, never cracking any major prospect lists.

 

My point is that you're speaking in absolutes when it's painfully obvious this is not an absolute situation.

[mlhouse]

 

Huh. I knew Ullger was primarily a first baseman and that 1981 was his third season at AA. I actually never looked up how many games he played at a particular position. But it was actually something called Lance Hallberg who was the primary first baseman for Orlando in 1981. Also in his 3rd season at AA. Also another nobody. Also someone who probably should have been released so Hrbek could play at AA in the second half of 1981 in AA.

The Minnesota Twins. 4 decades of keeping 25 year olds around to play in AA.

 

 

Yep to the last part.  THe fact is the 1981 Twins understood they were going to be bad and basically made a commitment to develop a competitive team. They brought just about EVERYONE up in 1982.

Gary Gaetti, Kent Hrbek, Tom Brunansky TIm Laudner, Randy Bush, Jim Eisenreich, Lenny Faedo Brad Havens, Frank VIola, Terry Felton, Randy Johnson.  

 

Everyone.  THey knew they were going to suck and they sucked.  That was the first, and until 2016, the only 100 loss team in MInnesota Twins history.  But by bringing up an almost complete nucleus of a team and sticking to the rebuild they had an advantage in being able to push that core group aheadm Gaetti, Hrbek, Brunansky, Bush, Viola, weed out the others Faedo,Eisenreich, Havens, Felton, Johnson, and rapidly bring up their replacements, Gaetti, Puckett, Gene Larkin.

 

From that moment they could then make some minor adjustments to fill in the holes that their system could not.  Jeff Reardon.  Bert Blyleven.  

 

I don't advocate the fast track for everyone.  For example, a prospect like Kohl Stewart should be moved along carefully because his football time cut into his baseball development.  But others should not be held back at all and should move until the find the level that cannot contain them, Stephen Gonslaves, injured right now, would be a prime example of that.  As a 21 year old in AA Gonslaves had a 1.82 ERA and almost 11 k/9.  I am sure taht the Twins plan on starting him there when he recovers from injury, and while that is probably a necessity I see zero reason not to call him up to the major leagues.

[mlhouse]

 

Hitters aren't bigger at 20 years old. That's kind of my point.

You're using outdated comparisons of a talented hitter like Hrbek to justify a decision of Mitch-freakin-Garver.

It's fine to want Garver here. I get it. But your argument falls flat for a myriad of reasons. The game isn't the same as the comparisons you've used. The Twins are likely going to be 14-11 in a few minutes. We don't know much about Garver's defense. Until recently, he was a middling hitter and he's far from a blue chipper, never cracking any major prospect lists.

My point is that you're speaking in absolutes when it's painfully obvious this is not an absolute situation.

 

Sorry, but 20 year old athletes today are WAY bigger, stronger, and more physically trained than athletes from days gone by.  That is just a pathetic argument.  Back in teh day the camps and amateur tourneys, the nutrition, and instruction did not exist like it does today.

 

 

This team isn;t goint to win enough to make the playoffs and even if we improve the record to around 500, doing that by playing non-prospects just postpones the further reckoning this team needs to do in order to create a competitive team.  

 

The other aspect that you are missing is that I am certainly not advocating bringing up a 20 year player in Garver.  He is freakin 26 years old already.  He has stepped up one level every year. Rk, A-, A+, AA, AAA last year and this.  If you give him 100 at bats and he strikes out 95 times, big deal.  He would suck and you go find the next guy.  

 

Wanting to win this year is a huge mistake.

[jorgenswest]

I think Falvey and Levine believe Giminez brings something to the team that isn't measured in the data. They spoke of the need for veterans and leadership on this team. They knew Giminez well it was clear when he signed that he was coming in to be on the major league roster. I think they believe Belisle brings something beyond his data also.

 

As a mathematician, I want to be able to measure their value. I can't in this case. I either need to trust in Levine and Falvey's roster construction or not. If I don't, I really need to question their competence. The only real changes on the roster were Castro and a couple of aging veterans on the bench. That presence was among their top priorities raking on the team.

 

I can also question Berrios but I choose to trust their also. The Twins haven't developed a starting pitcher in years. I hope the next time Berrios comes up it will be for good. If that's the case, I don't care if it takes half the season.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Sorry, but 20 year old athletes today are WAY bigger, stronger, and more physically trained than athletes from days gone by.  That is just a pathetic argument.  Back in teh day the camps and amateur tourneys, the nutrition, and instruction did not exist like it does today.

 

 

This team isn;t goint to win enough to make the playoffs and even if we improve the record to around 500, doing that by playing non-prospects just postpones the further reckoning this team needs to do in order to create a competitive team.  

 

The other aspect that you are missing is that I am certainly not advocating bringing up a 20 year player in Garver.  He is freakin 26 years old already.  He has stepped up one level every year. Rk, A-, A+, AA, AAA last year and this.  If you give him 100 at bats and he strikes out 95 times, big deal.  He would suck and you go find the next guy.  

 

Wanting to win this year is a huge mistake.

Okay, first off, you've already violated several rules of this board in this thread but I've let it slide. If you refer to my opinion or anyone else's as "pathetic" again, you'll get a warning.

 

Second, I don't think this team is good enough to make the playoffs, either. But that doesn't mean I'm willing to take a flyer on a catcher whose defense may hinder this already horribly shaky pitching staff just because I don't like Chris Gimenez (which I kinda don't). Your opinion may differ. That's fine. But it's an opinion. You need to reel it in a bit because, again, you're speaking in absolutes in a situation where you have extremely limited information on a complex subject. Garver isn't some rando who plays right field every third or fourth game; he's the guy who catches 150+ pitches a couple of times a week. His bat *might* be nice to have in the lineup but the havoc a bad backup catcher can cause is pretty substantial.

 

And maybe you think wanting to win this year is a mistake. Personally, I like winning. Particularly when it's delivered on the backs of guys like Sano, Kepler, Polanco, Buxton, and Rosario, all of which are 25 years old or younger. I don't want the Twins to sacrifice a promising young prospect's playing time - such as Berrios - for a retread but we're talking about the backup catcher here. A little perspective is needed.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

As a mathematician, I want to be able to measure their value. I can't in this case. I either need to trust in Levine and Falvey's roster construction or not. If I don't, I really need to question their competence. 

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

 

When dealing with limited information, you need to trust the people with more information until they prove themselves untrustworthy.

 

Otherwise, Dunning-Kruger.

[yarnivek1972]

Winner winner, chicken dinner.

 

When dealing with limited information, you need to trust the people with more information until they prove themselves untrustworthy.

 

Otherwise, Dunning-Kruger.

You mean untrustworthy like saying "Berrios needs to be stretched out" in March and then giving another excuse to not bring him up in May? Got it. Untrustworthy it is then.

[Brock Beauchamp]

You mean untrustworthy like saying "Berrios needs to be stretched out" in March and then giving another excuse to not bring him up in May? Got it. Untrustworthy it is then.

I don't like the Berrios decision at all but opinions can change. How many innings of Berrios have you watched this season? I've watched nothing more than the occasional highlight, which is hardly enough to make me an expert on the subject.

[USAFChief]

 

 

 

Wanting to win this year is a huge mistake.

Not trying to win, in ANY year, is a huge mistake. 

 

You're complaining about the team loosing 550 games over six years, while simultaneously arguing it doesn't matter if they lose games by bring up Mitch Garver's.

 

 

[jorgenswest]

I think Falvey and Levine believe Giminez gives them a better chance at winning games this year. I have no idea how to measure his contribution while on the bench. I do think that the front office values that contribution.

[yarnivek1972]

I don't like the Berrios decision at all but opinions can change. How many innings of Berrios have you watched this season? I've watched nothing more than the occasional highlight, which is hardly enough to make me an expert on the subject.

We're not talking about my credentials. We're talking about the credibility of those making the decision. They obviously weren't truthful in March. What makes you believe they are being truthful now?

[drjim]

Not trying to win, in ANY year, is a huge mistake.

 

You're complaining about the team loosing 550 games over six years, while simultaneously arguing it doesn't matter if they lose games by bring up Mitch Garver's.

Oh come on, you want to risk another high draft choice by winning?

[Brock Beauchamp]

We're not talking about my credentials. We're talking about the credibility of those making the decision. They obviously weren't truthful in March. What makes you believe they are being truthful now?

That's a pretty big leap. Opinions can change for all sorts of reasons. Obviously, there's something about Berrios that makes them feel he's not ready and maybe it took a couple of weeks to find that out.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I think Falvey and Levine believe Giminez brings something to the team that isn't measured in the data. They spoke of the need for veterans and leadership on this team. They knew Giminez well it was clear when he signed that he was coming in to be on the major league roster. I think they believe Belisle brings something beyond his data also.

As a mathematician, I want to be able to measure their value. I can't in this case. I either need to trust in Levine and Falvey's roster construction or not. If I don't, I really need to question their competence. The only real changes on the roster were Castro and a couple of aging veterans on the bench. That presence was among their top priorities raking on the team.

I can also question Berrios but I choose to trust their also. The Twins haven't developed a starting pitcher in years. I hope the next time Berrios comes up it will be for good. If that's the case, I don't care if it takes half the season.

 

I agree completely. They prefer veterans to youth. 100% agree.

[jorgenswest]

I agree completely. They prefer veterans to youth. 100% agree.

Is that what I said? I tried to emphasize that they were seeking for leadership. I don't know how to measure their success. I would assume that some veterans are very skilled and others are lacking. I also would assume that they weren't confident that the young players they had returning had developed those skills yet.

 

Was it an unreasonable assessment to come in and determine that the Twins were seriously void of leadership? To address that they bring in Belisle and Giminez as well Torii, LaTroy and Michael in the background.

 

I don't think I said anywhere that they preferred veterans over youth. It seems the roster has several young players. You drew me in though. Really I would be most wise use to ignore rather than reply. I apologize for the tone. Hopefully I won't bite again.