Twins option Mejia to AAA, put Haley on DL

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I don't think it was some crazy hot take to favor Mejia or Berrios to start the season over a guy who appeared to be pitching as predicted.

In a vacuum, it's fine to prefer Mejia or Berrios over Santiago.

 

But what happens when one or both of those guys fail? Or Hughes? Or Gibson?

 

Nobody here is on the Santiago bandwagon - at least, I don't think that's the case - we're simply looking at the overall roster, calculating chances of rotation favor, and saying "yeah, okay, I guess Santiago is fine".

[USAFChief]

I guess I'm on the Santiago bandwagon. I was pretty confident he was one of the Twins best 5 starters going into 2017. Top 3, actually.

 

What would not signing him have accomplished?

[Willihammer]

Silver lining, or maybe a fun with numbers / not fun with numbers thing about Mejia- here are his L/R splits:

 

http://i.imgur.com/Hwd7VcB.jpg

 

That's right, in three games he didn't face a single lefthanded batter.

[KirbyDome89]

 

In a vacuum, it's fine to prefer Mejia or Berrios over Santiago.

 

But what happens when one or both of those guys fail? Or Hughes? Or Gibson?

 

Nobody here is on the Santiago bandwagon - at least, I don't think that's the case - we're simply looking at the overall roster, calculating chances of rotation favor, and saying "yeah, okay, I guess Santiago is fine".

I'm not saying anybody is pumping him up to be anything that he isn't. 

 

The OP was "BTW, where are those that thought Santiago should have been non-tendered?"

 

They had three pitchers, Mejia, May, and Berrios, that I preferred over Santiago, but as soon as they tendered him that contract he was guaranteed a rotation spot. To me that was disappointing. He was coming off a poor season for the Twins, and they had just made that wonky trade to get out from under a year of paying for a mediocre veteran starter. The market wasn't great so I was totally fine with the Twins signing a couple guys to minor league deals as the plan B, and trying to find bullpen help. I was in favor of the younger pitchers getting the first shot to start the year. If I had any faith in this organization to cut bait with veteran players before their performance became laughable maybe I would've been more in favor, but I was worried about those three all getting a legitimate chance to start and signing Santiago only heightened that fear. 

 

Obviously after May went down with the UCL tear and Santiago started this season hot the move looks better, but I think it absolutely is a defensible position to not initially like the Santiago signing.  

[drjim]

 

I'm not saying anybody is pumping him up to be anything that he isn't. 

 

The OP was "BTW, where are those that thought Santiago should have been non-tendered?"

 

They had three pitchers, Mejia, May, and Berrios, that I preferred over Santiago, but as soon as they tendered him that contract he was guaranteed a rotation spot. To me that was disappointing. He was coming off a poor season for the Twins, and they had just made that wonky trade to get out from under a year of paying for a mediocre veteran starter. The market wasn't great so I was totally fine with the Twins signing a couple guys to minor league deals as the plan B, and trying to find bullpen help. I was in favor of the younger pitchers getting the first shot to start the year. If I had any faith in this organization to cut bait with veteran players before their performance became laughable maybe I would've been more in favor, but I was worried about those three all getting a legitimate chance to start and signing Santiago only heightened that fear. 

 

Obviously after May went down with the UCL tear and Santiago started this season hot the move looks better, but I think it absolutely is a defensible position to not initially like the Santiago signing.  

 

Leaving Santiago's hot start aside, losing a pitcher to injury and having a young pitcher struggling out of the gate are entirely predictable outcomes. To back them up with only vets on minor league contracts is asking for a disaster significantly larger than the one currently facing the Twins.

 

The only way releasing Santiago would be defensible is if they signed another free agent to replace him, but as you said the free agent market was not great.

 

That said, I do respect the willingness to stand by a position even if it doesn't look correct at the moment. Much more honest than, say, advocating for playing the young guys and then lamenting the lack of a good backup plan when they struggle.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Leaving Santiago's hot start aside, losing a pitcher to injury and having a young pitcher struggling out of the gate are entirely predictable outcomes. To back them up with only vets on minor league contracts is asking for a disaster significantly larger than the one currently facing the Twins.

 

The only way releasing Santiago would be defensible is if they signed another free agent to replace him, but as you said the free agent market was not great.

 

That said, I do respect the willingness to stand by a position even if it doesn't look correct at the moment. Much more honest than, say, advocating for playing the young guys and then lamenting the lack of a good backup plan when they struggle.

A young pitcher struggling absolutely is, but there were 3 of them. A pitcher missing some time certainly is as well, but a potential starter tearing their UCL in ST isn't something most teams plan for. Maybe I'm more down on Santiago than most, but I didn't see him as a massive upgrade over a guy like John Niese, who you could sign to a MiLB deal. 

 

The staff was going to be a disaster with Santiago or with low cost signings. At least if they had pitchers on MiLB contracts or even a low cost MLB contract the Twins might make a move when necessary. This is the same team that locked in Hughes coming off major surgery and two uninspiring ST starts. I had 0 confidence they would move on from Santiago if/when the time came. The loyalty this organization shows to subpar veteran play knows no depths. I think I stand on pretty firm ground there. 

 

What you call honest some might say is stubbornness, but I'll gladly accept the respect.

[Thrylos]

 

Why doe Chargois need more time? If he's healthy, he can pitch here. 

 

Someday that elusive future where they put the best players on the field will happen. But, apparently, still not this month.

 

I think that Chargois' health is TBD.  He pitched 1-2/3 innings in a single game for Rochester four days ago.  I do not have velocity reports, but I think that the Twins would like want to see more of him, including pitching back to back days, before they make a move.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I think that Chargois' health is TBD.  He pitched 1-2/3 innings in a single game for Rochester four days ago.  I do not have velocity reports, but I think that the Twins would like want to see more of him, including pitching back to back days, before they make a move.

 

I admit that post was made in frustration.....

[kab21]

 

I'm not saying anybody is pumping him up to be anything that he isn't. 

 

The OP was "BTW, where are those that thought Santiago should have been non-tendered?"

 

They had three pitchers, Mejia, May, and Berrios, that I preferred over Santiago, but as soon as they tendered him that contract he was guaranteed a rotation spot. To me that was disappointing. He was coming off a poor season for the Twins, and they had just made that wonky trade to get out from under a year of paying for a mediocre veteran starter. The market wasn't great so I was totally fine with the Twins signing a couple guys to minor league deals as the plan B, and trying to find bullpen help. I was in favor of the younger pitchers getting the first shot to start the year. If I had any faith in this organization to cut bait with veteran players before their performance became laughable maybe I would've been more in favor, but I was worried about those three all getting a legitimate chance to start and signing Santiago only heightened that fear. 

 

Obviously after May went down with the UCL tear and Santiago started this season hot the move looks better, but I think it absolutely is a defensible position to not initially like the Santiago signing.  

Nolasco was a terrible starter. I have said it before but we don't have the same definition of mediocre. Santiago (aside from last season) has been better than mediocre. Nolasco has had two seasons better than mediocre in his entire career. Nolasco overall was awful, not mediocre.

[snepp]

 

How about judging him by the last 9 1/2 months, dating back to the All Star Break of 2015?  That's roughly 40-45 starts and I would peg his ERA in those games at about 5.5 without actually doing the math.

 

The last 9 1/2 months is 19 starts with a 4.24 ERA.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Nolasco was a terrible starter. I have said it before but we don't have the same definition of mediocre. Santiago (aside from last season) has been better than mediocre. Nolasco has had two seasons better than mediocre in his entire career. Nolasco overall was awful, not mediocre.

So Nolasco is the lesser pitcher.....ok? That has absolutely nothing to do with any of the conversation about resigning Hector. 

 

I don't see Santiago as an above average major league pitcher so yes, mediocre would be the correct label. 

 

 

 

 

[kab21]

 

So Nolasco is the lesser pitcher.....ok? That has absolutely nothing to do with any of the conversation about resigning Hector. 

 

I don't see Santiago as an above average major league pitcher so yes, mediocre would be the correct label. 

So mediocre is what you will describe anyone that isn't above average? That is a pretty huge range and awfully imprecise imo.

[KirbyDome89]

 

So mediocre is what you will describe anyone that isn't above average? That is a pretty huge range and awfully imprecise imo.

Mediocre means average. 

 

If you want to say Ricky is a below average starter I don't care. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with any of the conversation regarding resigning Hector. 

 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Not by most definitions.

Google it and tell me they aren't synonyms....

 

 

[KirbyDome89]

Holy hell....why don't you guys start another thread and you can argue for days about what defines mediocrity and the "preciseness," of synonyms. Seriously...that s**t has nothing to do with anything being discussed.  

[snepp]

Because you asked...

 

Google says...

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=average+vs+mediocre&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

 

 

(not the same)

[DaveW]

 

How about judging him by the last 9 1/2 months, dating back to the All Star Break of 2015?  That's roughly 40-45 starts and I would peg his ERA in those games at about 5.5 without actually doing the math.

I'd suggest you do the math on that one, because you are off by quite a bit.

Prior to 2016 Santiago posted 3 straight seasons of sub 4.00 ERA STARTING pitching. Yeah, he was never a top of the rotation guy for sure, but feel free to name me 3 Twins starting pitchers who were able to put up 3 straight seasons of sub 4.00 ERA for this club in the last 15 years.

Santiago should only be off this roster if the Twins are able to trade him. He's one of the three pitchers I actually feel ok about currently on this club (and 2nd best overall IMO)

 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Because you asked...

 

Google says...

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=average+vs+mediocre&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

 

 

(not the same)

Why don't google "mediocre definition" then look down at the synonyms....second one listed I believe

 

Synonym = exactly or nearly the same

 

Sorry....

 

[KirbyDome89]

me·di·o·cre
ˌmēdēˈōkər/

adjective

of only moderate quality; not very good.
"a mediocre actor"
synonyms: ordinary, average, middling, middle-of-the-road, uninspired, undistinguished, indifferent, unexceptional, unexciting, unremarkable, run-of-the-mill, pedestrian, prosaic, lackluster, forgettable, amateur, amateurish; More

[kab21]

The problem is that your definition of mediocre in this thread alone has ranged from Santiago to Nolasco and would presumably include Hughes and Gibson also. The range (60-70% of MLB pitchers) is basically anybody that isn't above average (your previous definition). I would consider Santiago average instead of mediocre. And average (a shot at a 4.00 ERA) sounds awesome right now.

[yarnivek1972]

I'd suggest you do the math on that one, because you are off by quite a bit.

 

Prior to 2016 Santiago posted 3 straight seasons of sub 4.00 ERA STARTING pitching. Yeah, he was never a top of the rotation guy for sure, but feel free to name me 3 Twins starting pitchers who were able to put up 3 straight seasons of sub 4.00 ERA for this club in the last 15 years.

 

Santiago should only be off this roster if the Twins are able to trade him. He's one of the three pitchers I actually feel ok about currently on this club (and 2nd best overall IMO)

 

 

As I said on the previous page, somehow I had the idea the pitcher being discussed was Gibson. My bad.

[DaveW]

 

As I said on the previous page, somehow I had the idea the pitcher being discussed was Gibson. My bad.

But you have still said more than once that Santiago is mediocre, shouldn't be on the team, right? Or is that in re: Gibson (I would agree if that is the case)

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

me·di·o·cre
ˌmēdēˈōkər/

adjective

of only moderate quality; not very good.
"a mediocre actor"
synonyms: ordinary, average, middling, middle-of-the-road, uninspired, undistinguished, indifferent, unexceptional, unexciting, unremarkable, run-of-the-mill, pedestrian, prosaic, lackluster, forgettable, amateur, amateurish; More

Mediocre has a mostly negative connotation in today's society so I see the point other posters are making... but I use mediocre all the time in a non-pejorative way. The definition of the word is "average".

 

I think Santiago is pretty mediocre. And I don't mean that as an insult, as I very much wanted him and still want him on the team.

[USAFChief]

Santiago has actually been more "meh" than "mediocre" for the majority of his big league career, if you ask me.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Santiago has actually been more "meh" than "mediocre" for the majority of his big league career, if you ask me.

Dunno. He's had a couple of "errrrr" seasons with few "ohhhhh" seasons mixed in.

[USAFChief]

 

Dunno. He's had a couple of "errrrr" seasons with few "ohhhhh" seasons mixed in.

I'd have went with "nobody asked you."

[yarnivek1972]

But you have still said more than once that Santiago is mediocre, shouldn't be on the team, right? Or is that in re: Gibson (I would agree if that is the case)

Not in this forum that I am aware of. If some team blew me away with a trade offer, I would certainly listen. For sure he needs to be traded or resigned before the end of July. Given how poorly he did last year, I would personally be a little gun shy about extending him. The Hughes contract would be on my mind, although Santiago's body of work is considerably better and he's considerably younger. But for his career he's been pretty good and pretty consistent.

[ashbury]

I'd have went with "nobody asked you."

The panel would also have accepted "Rally Monkey".

[DaveW]

Santiago has actually been more "meh" than "mediocre" for the majority of his big league career, if you ask me.

I'd say "boringly average"

 

Which is fine. I would KILL for a rotation and bullpen full of that currently!

[kab21]

 

Not in this forum that I am aware of. If some team blew me away with a trade offer, I would certainly listen. For sure he needs to be traded or resigned before the end of July. Given how poorly he did last year, I would personally be a little gun shy about extending him. The Hughes contract would be on my mind, although Santiago's body of work is considerably better and he's considerably younger. But for his career he's been pretty good and pretty consistent.

Slow down the Santiago train here. I am one of his biggest supporters but I am EXTREMELY hesitant about offering any kind of multiple years to him. He was a great option last offseason because he was on a one year arb contract and if things go bad then nothing significant is affected. Multiple years is really risky imo.

 

I would certainly try to trade him at the deadline. I say no to extensions to 'mediocre' pitchers that somehow get it done. He is solid but not somebody I want pitching for the next 3-4 seasons for the Twins.