Starling Marte

[Twinsbar107]

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/225044864/pirates-starling-marte-suspended-80-games/?topicId=27118122

[bluechipper]

Wow that's a shocker. 

[gunnarthor]

I'm more surprised that testing caught someone 

[a-wan]

Supposedly the positive test was a drug that is usually injected, so he could plead the "bad  B-12" injection route.

[biggentleben]

 

I'm more surprised that testing caught someone 

 

I'd have to dig up the tweet, but it was something like 15 All-Stars have been caught since official testing began. That's a fairly high rate of the game's best players, let alone the others caught.

 

MLB's testing program is more extensive than any major sport.

[Taildragger8791]

 

I'd have to dig up the tweet, but it was something like 15 All-Stars have been caught since official testing began. That's a fairly high rate of the game's best players, let alone the others caught.

 

MLB's testing program is more extensive than any major sport.

 

As evidenced by the fact that almost no notable NFL or NBA players ever get busted despite their athletes looking like real life supreheros.

[HitInAPinch]

"Marte said "neglect and lack of knowledge" led to the "mistake" and apologized for his actions."

 

yeah, right....

[gunnarthor]

 

I'd have to dig up the tweet, but it was something like 15 All-Stars have been caught since official testing began. That's a fairly high rate of the game's best players, let alone the others caught.

 

MLB's testing program is more extensive than any major sport.

It's more extensive but that's a pretty low bar.  

[biggentleben]

 

It's more extensive but that's a pretty low bar.  

 

You can use 9/10th of the things on MLB's banned list to do your job better. No one's going to test you for those and tell you that you cannot use them because they're legal substances sold and purchased legally.

 

Obviously, the "dumb" argument to quickly follow is that "no one's paying me $2M to do MY job!", which is all well and good, but no stadiums are full of fans paying $50 each to watch you enter data into your computer either.

 

I think anyone entering the discussion on PEDs needs to take a listen to the Shawne Merriman interview on Jonah Keri's podcast. The ridiculousness of the dialogue on the media/public side and the reality of what players really are restricted on are two incredibly different worlds, and certainly that is never portrayed.

[Taildragger8791]

 

You can use 9/10th of the things on MLB's banned list to do your job better. No one's going to test you for those and tell you that you cannot use them because they're legal substances sold and purchased legally.

 

Obviously, the "dumb" argument to quickly follow is that "no one's paying me $2M to do MY job!", which is all well and good, but no stadiums are full of fans paying $50 each to watch you enter data into your computer either.

 

I think anyone entering the discussion on PEDs needs to take a listen to the Shawne Merriman interview on Jonah Keri's podcast. The ridiculousness of the dialogue on the media/public side and the reality of what players really are restricted on are two incredibly different worlds, and certainly that is never portrayed.

 

I'm not commenting on the fairness or reasonableness of the drug testing program, but my understanding is a lot of legal supplements are generally banned because they can mask the use of the actual illegal PEDs. Allowing them creates an easy loophole that would just be mercilessly abused otherwise.

[gunnarthor]

 

You can use 9/10th of the things on MLB's banned list to do your job better. No one's going to test you for those and tell you that you cannot use them because they're legal substances sold and purchased legally.

 

Obviously, the "dumb" argument to quickly follow is that "no one's paying me $2M to do MY job!", which is all well and good, but no stadiums are full of fans paying $50 each to watch you enter data into your computer either.

 

I think anyone entering the discussion on PEDs needs to take a listen to the Shawne Merriman interview on Jonah Keri's podcast. The ridiculousness of the dialogue on the media/public side and the reality of what players really are restricted on are two incredibly different worlds, and certainly that is never portrayed.

There's a lot of issues about PEDs and frankly the thing that bothers me most about MLB's proposal is that the owners are not punished at all. The BS Mitchell report placed the blame for PED use on both the players and the owners but the player loses the money, takes the PR hit and the team doesn't suffer. Hell, the Yankees were openly hoping Arod would get caught to end his contract. And if teams aren't punished, then players will always cheat because if they don't someone else will. Look at all those poor kids from the Dominican. If I was in their shoes, I'd inject everything in the hopes of making a better life for my family. That said, the players stupidly signed onto this agreement and Marte wasn't using the right masking agents this time and was caught.

 

[biggentleben]

 

I'm not commenting on the fairness or reasonableness of the drug testing program, but my understanding is a lot of legal supplements are generally banned because they can mask the use of the actual illegal PEDs. Allowing them creates an easy loophole that would just be mercilessly abused otherwise.

 

Yes, and no.

 

A number of them don't mask anything at all, but they produce steroid-lite effects, or they metabolize into something that shows up on a test the same way that a steroid or another illegal PED would metabolize in the body.

[biggentleben]

 

There's a lot of issues about PEDs and frankly the thing that bothers me most about MLB's proposal is that the owners are not punished at all. The BS Mitchell report placed the blame for PED use on both the players and the owners but the player loses the money, takes the PR hit and the team doesn't suffer. Hell, the Yankees were openly hoping Arod would get caught to end his contract. And if teams aren't punished, then players will always cheat because if they don't someone else will. Look at all those poor kids from the Dominican. If I was in their shoes, I'd inject everything in the hopes of making a better life for my family. That said, the players stupidly signed onto this agreement and Marte wasn't using the right masking agents this time and was caught.

 

Great example of that - ARod, Bonds, Clemens, Manny going to have difficulty getting into the HOF.

 

Francona, Torre, Bochy all near locks for HOF managing them while they were assumed to be using, along with Bochy overseeing Ken Caminiti when he was at his absolute worst in San Diego.

[Thrylos]

 

Great example of that - ARod, Bonds, Clemens, Manny going to have difficulty getting into the HOF.

 

Francona, Torre, Bochy all near locks for HOF managing them while they were assumed to be using, along with Bochy overseeing Ken Caminiti when he was at his absolute worst in San Diego.

 

Torre is in.  So is the guy who started it all with the A's, Tony LaRussa

[Taildragger8791]

 

Yes, and no.

 

A number of them don't mask anything at all, but they produce steroid-lite effects, or they metabolize into something that shows up on a test the same way that a steroid or another illegal PED would metabolize in the body.

 

...which creates one of the loopholes I was referring to. While not a "masking agent" in the sense it hides the illegal PED from a positive test, if legal substances are inseparable from illegal ones on a test then it gives the athlete an opportunity to challenge the tests and get off the hook.

[biggentleben]

 

...which creates one of the loopholes I was referring to. While not a "masking agent" in the sense it hides the illegal PED from a positive test, if legal substances are inseparable from illegal ones on a test then it gives the athlete an opportunity to challenge the tests and get off the hook.

 

They aren't once you do deeper testing, but at a base level they show up the same, and the issue with going deeper is that the owners would have to give up some in order to get the level of testing that would separate legal substances from the illegal (yes, odd, but it is a negotiation, and much of the initial steroid use was highly encouraged and even promoted by the ownership end, so the players are wanting some buy back for the fact that it's all players getting blamed still on the steroids). Owners were not willing to offer up anything for deeper testing, and therefore, it leaves the game with a further shadow that could be eliminated with better testing.

[gunnarthor]

 

Great example of that - ARod, Bonds, Clemens, Manny going to have difficulty getting into the HOF.

 

Francona, Torre, Bochy all near locks for HOF managing them while they were assumed to be using, along with Bochy overseeing Ken Caminiti when he was at his absolute worst in San Diego.

Honestly, I don't care about the HOF.  What bothered me the most was that the Yankees got a benefit from ARod's suspension - his salary was off the books for that missed season and they came very close to lowering their tax payoff that other teams receive from them.  Essentially, the Yankees were financially aided by the suspension while the other teams lost (some) revenue.  There should be some sort of penalty to the team or the money should still be paid but go to the MLB player's charity or something.  Just not stay in the owner's pocket.

[Mike Sixel]

Putting aside my thoughts on bans....

 

It does seem wrong to me that only players are punished. One of our favorite teams had a manager cover up use, if the stories are true....

 

I'm not sure it is true teams are never punished. I'd argue Pitts is definitely going to feel the pain this year.

[gunnarthor]

 

Putting aside my thoughts on bans....

 

It does seem wrong to me that only players are punished. One of our favorite teams had a manager cover up use, if the stories are true....

 

I'm not sure it is true teams are never punished. I'd argue Pitts is definitely going to feel the pain this year.

Yeah, I should have phrased it better.  The team certainly loses out when a good player is suspended and they can't use the saved money on something else to replace him but ownership isn't punished.  And if it's a bad player, it's a win for the team/owner.

[benny]

Banned substances in baseball have been an ongoing issue for Major League Baseball. Several players have come forward in recent years to suggest that drug use is rampant in baseball. David Wells stated that "25 to 40 percent of all Major Leaguers are juiced. José Canseco stated on 60 Minutes and in his tell-all book juiced that as many as 80% of players used steroids, and that he credited steroid use for his entire career. Ken Caminiti revealed that he won the 1996 National League MVP award while on steroids. In February 2009, after reports emerged alleging that Alex Rodriguez tested positive for steroids in 2003, a year in which he was American League MVP, he admitted to having used performance-enhancing drugs (PEDs) between 2001 and 2003. Mark McGwire, dogged by allegations of PED use for years, admitted in January 2010 that he had used steroids and human growth hormone off and on for over a decade, including in 1998 when he set the single-season home run record.

[Mike Sixel]

Not to mention all the drugs done in the 50s and 60s that people conveniently try to pretend weren't PEDs.....in the overly pretentious way that only baseball fans can do.

[gunnarthor]

 

Not to mention all the drugs done in the 50s and 60s that people conveniently try to pretend weren't PEDs.....in the overly pretentious way that only baseball fans can do.

Sure but did greenies require your competition to alter their bodies to compete?  I truly hate the greenies = steroids argument for a number of reasons.  And roid use wasn't as uniform as greenies were/are.  So maybe Brad Radke was taking some greenies but he wasn't taking horse steroids when he was competing against ARod.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Sure but did greenies require your competition to alter their bodies to compete?  I truly hate the greenies = steroids argument for a number of reasons.  And roid use wasn't as uniform as greenies were/are.  So maybe Brad Radke was taking some greenies but he wasn't taking horse steroids when he was competing against ARod.

 

We'll disagree. Why one would be ok, and one not, is beyond me. Either you are worried about "honest" competition w/o drugs, and player safety, or you aren't. IMO, of course. And it wasn't just greenies. And steroids were actively used in the 70s, we just didn't know/care...

[drjim]

 

We'll disagree. Why one would be ok, and one not, is beyond me. Either you are worried about "honest" competition w/o drugs, and player safety, or you aren't. IMO, of course. And it wasn't just greenies. And steroids were actively used in the 70s, we just didn't know/care...

 

I'm generally libertarian in allowing peds into sports, but Greenies are not even close to as effective as Steroids on performance. Way different ballgame.

 

But I do agree we have no idea the extent of PEDs in previous generations, one of the reason that I don't get too sanctimonious about current drug use. Plus, baseball is by far the most effective and serious professional sport - but there are limits to what they can do.

[gunnarthor]

 

We'll disagree. Why one would be ok, and one not, is beyond me. Either you are worried about "honest" competition w/o drugs, and player safety, or you aren't. IMO, of course. And it wasn't just greenies. And steroids were actively used in the 70s, we just didn't know/care...

One physically alters you while the other helps you recover from ****ing all night. Greenies don't turn journeymen like Dan Naulty into MLers. And greenies were used by everyone while not everyone was using horse steroids.

[biggentleben]

 

Sure but did greenies require your competition to alter their bodies to compete?  I truly hate the greenies = steroids argument for a number of reasons.  And roid use wasn't as uniform as greenies were/are.  So maybe Brad Radke was taking some greenies but he wasn't taking horse steroids when he was competing against ARod.

 

Yet Tom House was introduced to steroids in the early 1970s in Atlanta by Gary Gentry, who talked about how they were used openly in the clubhouse of the 1969 "Miracle" Mets, so even steroids have been around for decades before they got as well known in the late 80s. The big reason the roids actually were more known in the 80s/90s is that baseball finally started using weight training to activate the roids and see guys over-inflate in size.

[biggentleben]

 

One physically alters you while the other helps you recover from ****ing all night. Greenies don't turn journeymen like Dan Naulty into MLers. And greenies were used by everyone while not everyone was using horse steroids.

 

What do you think most guys take HGH for...the primary benefit of HGH is recovery.

[gunnarthor]

 

Yet Tom House was introduced to steroids in the early 1970s in Atlanta by Gary Gentry, who talked about how they were used openly in the clubhouse of the 1969 "Miracle" Mets, so even steroids have been around for decades before they got as well known in the late 80s. The big reason the roids actually were more known in the 80s/90s is that baseball finally started using weight training to activate the roids and see guys over-inflate in size.

So what? We've already had the "players used greenies" excuse in this thread and now you've added the "there were steroids in the 70s" excuse. I think you're next excuse is "there's no evidence Bond used" or "steroids don't make you hit the ball better" excuse. It gets old.

Sure, some players used in the 70s. It wasn't the epidemic it was in the Selig era nor did it create an unlevel playing field.

[drjim]

So what? We've already had the "players used greenies" excuse in this thread and now you've added the "there were steroids in the 70s" excuse. I think you're next excuse is "there's no evidence Bond used" or "steroids don't make you hit the ball better" excuse. It gets old.

Sure, some players used in the 70s. It wasn't the epidemic it was in the Selig era nor did it create an unlevel playing field.

You sure about that last point?

[gunnarthor]

 

You sure about that last point?

Yep