Utley-Tejada

[Mike Sixel]

I am so in agreement with chief here.....if you aren't trying to get to 2nd as fast as possible, it should be interference. It's in the rules that way. Just play by the rules.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

In what possible way was that not a "neighborhood" play?

He was attempting to turn 2.

If you have to leave the bag to catch a bad throw, it's not considered a neighborhood play.

 

Of course, that's extra ridiculous here in terms of maintaining player safety -- a player receiving a good throw, who isn't in much danger of being taken out on the slide, is guaranteed an out at second even if he skips touching the bag to avoid the slide in an attempt to turn 2.

 

A player receiving a bad throw, already in harm's way, is offered no such guarantee of the out at second, and thus has to put himself in further danger just to try recording an out at any base.

[DaveW]

Tejada never should have put himself in harms way (his teammate didn't help matters), **** happens, you can say you want this rule enforced  but this has been going on for decades, this was pretty much the exact same thing that happened to Nishioka and you didn't hear Twins fans crying about it.

 

Now, there is no way in hell Utley should have been called safe though, that was just silly. The suspension is stupid, but the Dodgers likely won't miss him anyways. If it were the Twins in that situation (down a run, double play, 7th inning, down 1 games to 0) I absolutely would want ANYONE on the Twins sliding like that to do whatever they could do to break up the double play. Tejada will be fine, people are acting like he is on his freaking death bed or something.

[Otto von Ballpark]

MLB has had lots of opportunities to do something -- when the blocking the plate rule was added, when replay was added and the "neighborhood play" officially codified, even a few weeks ago when Coghlan of the Cubs took out Kang of the Pirates.

 

I hate the play, but it's hard to blame Utley (to the point of postseason suspension) when the precedent is clear.

 

MLB needs a directive that umpires are going to enforce this rule, perhaps even amend the rule to make it abundantly clear that directing your feet in a slide anywhere but the base (or sliding late to effectively slide past the base) is an immediate DP and suspension, and no other runners can advance on the play either.

 

But there's not much you can do about Utley, or Coghlan, or whoever in the past at this point.

[Thrylos]

If they suspend Utley, they should suspend the second base umpire and the crew chief as well.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Of course, the most ridiculous part of this is that they overturned the out call at second base, when replay seemed to show Tejeda's toes making contact (albeit briefly) with the side of the bag.  There clearly wasn't enough evidence to suggest he failed to touch the bag at all.

 

And while I understand that the runner didn't have an obligation to touch second once he was called out, by the same token, the fielder didn't have an obligation to tag the runner once he was called out at the base either.  So I think in this case, even if on review they think they saw clear evidence that the fielder never touched the bag, the fact that the runner made no effort to touch the base initially should have been factored into the decision too as a sort of "tiebreaker" to settle which player's action takes precedence. Perhaps they simply could have denied the replay challenge on those grounds too?

[gunnarthor]

Because it's NL baseball, I didn't watch it.  It's boring.  And I read all this about Utley and thought, man, this must be the worst thing ever.  It wasn't.  He shouldn't have been suspended.  It wasn't a dirty play and the rules don't need to be changed.  The second baseman made a bad feed and the short stop didn't protect himself.  

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/11493214/v521658783/dodgers-chase-utleys-slide-injures-mets-ruben-tejada

 

Bottom of the 7th, one out and down a run and people think Utley should go in soft?  He did what hundreds of players - Michael Cuddyer especially - have done a thousand times. Once every four or five years, a player gets hurt.  There's no need to get up on soapboxes and cry about the destruction of a beautiful game.

[Mike Sixel]

EVERY year a player or more gets hurt, not every four or five years.

 

And, as for beauty, that is in the eye of the beholder, right? I don't find take out slides beautiful at all. You do. Some want the rules enforced, that if you aren't trying to get to the base, you are interfering. Others don't. It's not some soapboxy, liberal conspiracy, to wussify the world.....it just isn't.

[TheLeviathan]

You shouldn't have to "protect yourself" from a slide like that.

 

"It's the way it's always been" is also a terrible defense for this BS slide.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Bottom of the 7th, one out and down a run and people think Utley should go in soft?  He did what hundreds of players - Michael Cuddyer especially - have done a thousand times. Once every four or five years, a player gets hurt.  There's no need to get up on soapboxes and cry about the destruction of a beautiful game.

 

How about just go into second and not the other guy's leg?

 

That wouldn't be soft.  That would be playing baseball rather than what is essentially a full speed cut block.  (Something even football doesn't allow)

[gunnarthor]

 

EVERY year a player or more gets hurt, not every four or five years.

 

 

I'm not so sure.  I'm sure every year a player or two get banged up at slides into second (that are clean or dirty depending on the fan watching) but injuries like this are pretty rare. I think earlier this year the Royals got ticked off at the Blue Jays over something similar and we got a bunch of sky is falling comments then, too. But real injuries like Tejada got are pretty rare.

 

[gunnarthor]

 

You shouldn't have to "protect yourself" from a slide like that.

 

"It's the way it's always been" is also a terrible defense for this BS slide.

I couldn't disagree more with either of this sentences.  They are both so wrong it actually makes my head spin that anyone can watch baseball and think like this.  But this is just going to end up more of the BS that we have in the unwritten rules thread so it's not worth talking about it.  At the end of the day, it's likely that Utley's slide won the game for the Dodgers which is why it was the right play.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

I couldn't disagree more with either of this sentences.  They are both so wrong it actually makes my head spin that anyone can watch baseball and think like this.  But this is just going to end up more of the BS that we have in the unwritten rules thread so it's not worth talking about it.  At the end of the day, it's likely that Utley's slide won the game for the Dodgers which is why it was the right play.  

 

Appeal to Tradition is one of the worst justifications I can imagine.  Just think if we used that same policy towards the "right" thing in our daily life.  I'll let you imagine what sorts of things wouldn't have changed because they've "always been like that".  

 

If all it takes to get you to call something the "right play" is that it wins a game, you have a very distorted version of sportsmanship and fair play.  I guess every team should take it's worst reliever and have them start the game and just try to injure guys with pitches.  Throw right at their faces and knock them out to help improve your chances to win the game.  Hey...nothing wrong with that if it helps you win right?

 

I can only hope MLB doesn't agree with such nonsense.

[jimmer]

'this was pretty much the exact same thing that happened to Nishioka'

 

No, it isn't. Swisher slid before he reached, and in front of, second base and Nishi had his leg planted right there and he was facing forward where he could see the runner coming.

 

Utley didn't start his slide till he was next to 2B, never touched the bag (cause he didn't even try) and plowed a guy with his back turned.

Really the only similarity is a guy got his leg broken.

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Once every four or five years, a player gets hurt

Jung Ho Kang says hi!

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

At the end of the day, it's likely that Utley's slide won the game for the Dodgers which is why it was the right play.  

Actually, given the location of the throw, Tejada's attempt to touch second, and the speed of the batter Howie Kendrick, it's unlikely that Tejada was going to get the runner at first base even before contact from Utley.

 

And since it wasnt a "neighborhood play" and replay review concluded that Tejada's foot didn't touch second, Utley would have likely been safe at second without the contact too.

 

Granted, none of that was known before/during the play, but in hindsight, it's not clear at all that Utley's slide achieved anything other than breaking Tejada's leg.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Yeah not only that, but this is the same thing that happened to Morneau. So, two Twins in two years with pretty devastating injuries on this exact play.

 

You can judge Morneau's and Swisher's slides for yourself. They look pretty similar to me. No where near as rotten as Utley's however.

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/0/v9761163/min-tor-morneau-leaves-the-game-after-getting-hurt

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/0/v13555283/min-nyy-nishioka-injured-on-swisher-s-takeout-slide

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

He shouldn't have been suspended.  It wasn't a dirty play and the rules don't need to be changed.

I will agree Utley shouldn't have been suspended, and I'll half agree that it wasn't a dirty play, because this type of play has happened before without punishment for the runner.

 

Those two things mean absolutely nothing about whether the rule should be changed (or just better enforced), though.  I don't watch baseball for the cut blocks at second base, so I really don't see the harm in a very simple change/enforcement to remove them from the game in the future.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

No, it isn't. Swisher slid before he reached, and in front of, second base and Nishi had his leg planted right there and he was facing forward where he could see the runner coming.

Watching the replay in the post above, Swisher did go quite a bit toward third base with his "slide".  Different than Utley's play, but still not what I watch baseball to see.

[Otto von Ballpark]

These plays are even worse than the now-illegal runner-catcher collisions at home plate -- at least in those cases, the runner knew his (poor) odds and was simply trying to be safe at the plate (albeit often by trying to knock the ball loose or knock the catcher out by force, with little regard for actually touching the plate -- I don't miss those collisions at all).

 

In these situations at second base, the runner is already put out and doesn't really have any idea whether a takeout slide will help the batter reach first safely.   So they err on the side of cut blocking the infielder.  Doesn't look like it was even necessary for Utley the other night, or Morneau back in 2010.

[jimmer]

 

Watching the replay in the post above, Swisher did go quite a bit toward third base with his "slide".  Different than Utley's play, but still not what I watch baseball to see.

I don't want to see it either, but the two plays aren't that similar.  Both should be banned.  They should have to take a direct path to the base so where the only way a guy gets smashed into is if he is right there on the base or in front of it.

[gunnarthor]

I very much enjoyed Mr. Turbow's book on the Baseball Codes and thought his views on it were worth sharing, even if I generally disagree with him on this one.  It also has a lot of other slides for comparison.  Hello, Hal McRae.  

 

http://thebaseballcodes.com/2015/10/12/sanity-vs-reality-on-the-basepaths-time-to-embrace-the-new-school/

 

And this has developed into two issues - 1) should this kind of slide be legal? (I think yes) and 2) should Utley have been suspended (I think no).  I think you could think the opposite of me on #1 and still think Utley should not be suspended, as Turbow does.

[USAFChief]

I couldn't disagree more with either of this sentences.  They are both so wrong it actually makes my head spin that anyone can watch baseball and think like this.  But this is just going to end up more of the BS that we have in the unwritten rules thread so it's not worth talking about it.  At the end of the day, it's likely that Utley's slide won the game for the Dodgers which is why it was the right play.

 

I couldn't disagree more with this take.

 

What Utley did has been allowed to happen, but it doesn't make it right. Even MLB doesn't think it's right...there is a written rule against this specific thing on the books, with an explanation that specifically mentions taking out infielders on a double play.

 

Because of that, MLB had to go through the contortions of sanctifying ignoring ANOTHER rule, the force play, and we get the BS of the neighborhood play, along with the inevitable problems of deciding what is, and what isn't, such a play.

 

And we haven't even discussed the ridiculousness of replay in this case...overturning an out call without clear evidence, ignoring interference because that's somehow not reviewable, putting a runner on a base he never reached safely, and radically altering a playoff game.

 

Thankfully, this will change before next season. Too bad it had to come to this, but at least this will force change, hopefully for the right reasons, but at the least because MLB realizes it screwed up big time, and there can BE no rational explanation.

[TheLeviathan]

When even guys like Turbow and Pedro Martinez are against this, how can anyone form a rational defense of this flying chop block to the back of the leg?

 

Ugley, as a 2B, should know better. This sort of play is unnecessary and nonsensical.

[gunnarthor]

 

Ugley, as a 2B, should know better. This sort of play is unnecessary and nonsensical.

"Ugley" - cause his play was ugly.  Cute.

[gunnarthor]

 

I couldn't disagree more with this take.

What Utley did has been allowed to happen, but it doesn't make it right. Even MLB doesn't think it's right...there is a written rule against this specific thing on the books, with an explanation that specifically mentions taking out infielders on a double play.

Because of that, MLB had to go through the contortions of sanctifying ignoring ANOTHER rule, the force play, and we get the BS of the neighborhood play, along with the inevitable problems of deciding what is, and what isn't, such a play.

And we haven't even discussed the ridiculousness of replay in this case...overturning an out call without clear evidence, ignoring interference because that's somehow not reviewable, putting a runner on a base he never reached safely, and radically altering a playoff game.

Thankfully, this will change before next season. Too bad it had to come to this, but at least this will force change, hopefully for the right reasons, but at the least because MLB realizes it screwed up big time, and there can BE no rational explanation.

Well, I guess if it makes you feel better, you seem to be preaching to the choir.  

[TheLeviathan]

"Ugley" - cause his play was ugly. Cute.

It was actually an autocorrect.

 

But it's fitting for those of us in the choir that can't stand this BS.

[USAFChief]

 

Well, I guess if it makes you feel better, you seem to be preaching to the choir.  

Me 'n the choir are both trying to reach the few sinners still too blind to see.

[TheLeviathan]

What I find ironic is that in other places/cultures bat flipping is seen as fun and they'd never disrespect another player with a takeout slide, but here we flip those reactions.

 

We commend the intent to hurt and condemn celebrating as the "respectful" way to play. How ass backwards.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

should this kind of slide be legal? (I think yes)

Why, exactly?  Putting aside the Utley suspension and fan outrage here -- is there any really redeeming quality to a player forced out at second base drop-kicking a middle infielder away from the bag?

 

I don't object to slides that break up the DP pivot.  But the runner's feet should hit the fielder in front of the bag (or even on the bag, presuming the runner's butt is already touching the ground), otherwise it's not a slide, it's malicious contact.