Hicks

[ALessKosherScott]

 

That's fine, but the step up to the majors has ended many a good prospects. We're at 600 at bats in the majors and it has been absolutely dreadful.

 

Hunter's first couple hundred at-bats were pretty dreadful too. Ditto Morneau, Cuddyer, Plouffe, Dozier and the aforementioned Gomez. The exceptions are the Mauers who come in and hit right away. The norm is a guy taking some time to find success in the big leagues. 

 

That doesn't mean Hicks will hit for pop. But there's a chance, which is more than I'd give of Arcia learning to be anything more than a DH.

[COtwin]

So this whole thread seems to have been kicked off because off a missed catch, but I haven't seen anyone address the wind on that night. Balls were flying all over the place. On a line drive hit that hard right at you that wind could have shifted the ball a few inches in the last split second easily. Hicks had to turn and sprint back to where he thought it would go. Miraculous that he got there. People were misjudging routes all night. Acting like that was a comical misplay is ridiculous. What is more pathetic is listening to Dick and Bert try to defend Brian D while laying blame squarely at the feet of Hicks. Hicks has won us a few games and now he has lost us one.

If you want to bash Hicks for struggles at the plate in certain situations, like bases loaded, fine. But at least his tendency in those isn't to GIDP. We love to talk about Joe's clutch hitting, but he is just as likely to wipe the bases clean. Hicks is figuring it out. He has actually been a serviceable hitter this last month, without actually striking the ball squarely. I think he will eventually start making more solid contact and we will see average and slugging rise.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Hunter's first couple hundred at-bats were pretty dreadful too. Ditto Morneau, Cuddyer, Plouffe, Dozier and the aforementioned Gomez. The exceptions are the Mauers who come in and hit right. The norm is a guy taking some time to find success in the big leagues. 

 

That doesn't mean Hicks will hit for pop. But there's a chance, which is more than I'd give of Arcia learning to be anything more than a DH.

 

I totally agree about Arcia, but your comparisons aren't really that good.  But let's talk about each of these:

 

Hunter was sent down after 550 or so PAs, went to the minors, and never looked back.  He had an absolutely torrid Aug/Sept and became what he is.

 

Cuddyer was never even close to as bad as Hicks.  Morneau's cup of coffee 106 ABs was all that even compared and then he took off too.  Plouffe was bad defensively, but never even close to the abyss of offense that Hicks is.  Dozier had 300 ABs that were as bad before he turned it around.

 

Hicks is at 650 ABs and still putrid.  None of those guys are even close to that other than Gomez who is a very rare exception.

[ALessKosherScott]

 

I totally agree about Arcia, but your comparisons aren't really that good.  But let's talk about each of these:

 

Hunter was sent down after 550 or so PAs, went to the minors, and never looked back.  He had an absolutely torrid Aug/Sept and became what he is.

 

Cuddyer was never even close to as bad as Hicks.  Morneau's cup of coffee 106 ABs was all that even compared and then he took off too.  Plouffe was bad defensively, but never even close to the abyss of offense that Hicks is.  Dozier had 300 ABs that were as bad before he turned it around.

 

Hicks is at 650 ABs and still putrid.  None of those guys are even close to that other than Gomez who is a very rare exception.

 

Morneau definitely looked back after his 106 at-bat cup of coffee. He had a decent 2004, but slumped in 2005 and had a sub .700 OPS to start 2006 when the BYTO crowd started to call to trade him. Then he took off in May of 2006 and won an MVP award.

 

Cuddyer spent three years shuttling between Edmonton, Minnesota and Rochester before finally really starting to hit at 27. 

 

Dozier was older than Hicks when he posted a 67 OPS+ in 340 plate appearances.

 

Plouffe didn't really learn to hit until he was sent down in July of 2011. Then he went on a homerun streak in Rochester.

 

If Hicks learns to hit, it won't exactly be the weirdest thing to happen ever.

 

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

What is more pathetic is listening to Dick and Bert try to defend Brian D while laying blame squarely at the feet of Hicks. Hicks has won us a few games and now he has lost us one.

It's unfortunate to hear Hicks being scapegoated by the broadcasters again. Hicks has been playing a very good center field and then makes a terrible error at a terrible moment. He obviously has been prone to lapses in concentration in the past, if not in such big moments. I hope an intense experience like this will sober Hicks up far more than any AAA demotion ever did.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Morneau definitely looked back after his 106 at-bat cup of coffee. He had a decent 2004, but slumped in 2005 and had a sub .700 OPS to start 2006 when the BYTO crowd started to call to trade him. Then he took off in May of 2006 and won an MVP award.

 

Cuddyer spent three years shuttling between Edmonton, Minnesota and Rochester before finally really starting to hit at 27. 

 

Dozier was older than Hicks when he posted a 67 OPS+ in 340 plate appearances.

 

Plouffe didn't really learn to hit until he was sent down in July of 2011. Then he went on a homerun streak in Rochester.

 

If Hicks learns to hit, it won't exactly be the weirdest thing to happen ever.

 

You realize that Morneau's "slump" would look like an offensive onslaught from Hicks.....right?  You're cherry picking 60-70 at-bats to make a point, but Hicks has had 650 dreadful at-bats with little glimpses of positivity.  

 

Rapid fire on the rest:  Cuddyer's 2004 and 2005 are not comparable to Hicks, cmon. Dozier being older doesn't change the fact that he became a decent hitter in half the time = poor comparison.  If July 2011 was Plouffe's turning point he had only 150 PAs before it - not 650.  

 

None of these players were even close to as bad as Hicks and even their down periods were HALF the PAs afforded to Hicks at this point.

[stringer bell]

Before the non-catch on Friday, I thought broadcast media had been more than fair to Hicks. Somehow, he has managed to hit around league average and only drive in two runs. He has had opportunities with runners on base and he has not gotten the job done. It is fair to point out that he only has three extra-base hits. The broadcasters IMHO have given proper credit for Hicks having competitive at bats.  The results, so far, have not been that good.

[jokin]

Hicks is figuring it out. He has actually been a serviceable hitter this last month, without actually striking the ball squarely. I think he will eventually start making more solid contact and we will see average and slugging rise.

Hicks is hitting the ball harder of late, but trending down in terms of production. Some of this downtrend appears to be BABIP related. But that's a very bad SLG in either month.

 

Hicks May #s:

 

PA 61 Slash .259/.295/.328/(.623) LD 26.1% OPS+ 76

 

Hicks June #s:

 

PA 38 Slash .229/.289/.257/(.597) LD 32.1% OPS+ 58

 

But he's really a completely different hitter this season, and not much yet to show for his change in approach, his Contact #s are actually DOWN. Note his main attribute last year was OBP, plus MLB's most patient and passive batter... that's completely fallen off the cliff in 2015.

 

Hicks 2014:

 

.215/.341/.274/(.615) P/PA 4.25 Cont 80.9% ZCon 90.4% Whiff 7.2%

 

OPS+ 76

 

Hicks 2015:

 

.247/.293/.301/(.594) P/PA 3.59 Cont 80.1% ZCon 80.1% Whiff 9.3%

 

OPS+ 67

[DaveW]

I still think Hicks becomes a somewhat better version of Jacque Jones for this club, better in the field and ultimately similar at the plate hopefully without a huge discrepancy like Jones in terms of splits.

 

I still think Rosario Buxton Hicks is the OF of the next 4-5 years for this club and helps bring them back to the promised land. Arica/Vargas etc can compete for DH.

[Thegrin]

The ball was over his head and the win was blowing, but he got to it.  Maybe few outfielders would have gotten to that ball, but Hicks did and then he dropped it.  An OF needs to go and get balls, but then he also has to catch the balls he gets to.  Hicks made an error at a key point in the game.  That is the sign of a screwed up player, 

 

The most troubling part is that the next day, he withdraws himself from the lineup.  Once more Hicks has proven himself to be a screwed up young man.  He does not have the character needed to play big league ball.  

[stringer bell]

I'm not usually the first to jump in and defend Aaron Hicks, but does the team have something to do with him going on the DL? It saves them sending down a pitcher or perhaps releasing a player. It also takes the specter of the demoted center fielder looking over the new guy's shoulder as soon as Monday in St. Louis. 

 

This move gives Buxton two weeks to assume control of center field.  A couple of multi-hit games and a spectacular play or two will do the trick.

[USAFChief]

The ball was over his head and the win was blowing, but he got to it.  Maybe few outfielders would have gotten to that ball, but Hicks did and then he dropped it.  An OF needs to go and get balls, but then he also has to catch the balls he gets to.  Hicks made an error at a key point in the game.  That is the sign of a screwed up player, 

 

The most troubling part is that the next day, he withdraws himself from the lineup.  Once more Hicks has proven himself to be a screwed up young man.  He does not have the character needed to play big league ball.  

I going to go out on a limb here and guess the last thing Hicks wanted to do was take himself out of the lineup.

 

He's struggling to hit and keep his job, again, and one of the top prospects in baseball is breathing down his neck. He knows they're already short handed.

 

It seems to me it would take a lot, and some maturity, to tell his manager he can't go.

[jokin]

I'm not usually the first to jump in and defend Aaron Hicks, but does the team have something to do with him going on the DL?

Absolutely it does. And they have every right to feel exasperated, after already finding themselves shorthanded when Torii Hunter decided to start serving his suspenson, and then just a few minutes before gametime, Hicks suddenly decided his elbow was too sore to play? Yet another strange twist in the 3 year Aaron Hicks saga.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm as down on Hicks as anyone, but we're going to need to know a lot more about his situation to declare it another sign of his mental make-up being questionable.

[jokin]

I'm as down on Hicks as anyone, but we're going to need to know a lot more about his situation to declare it another sign of his mental make-up being questionable.

I think the Twins have said all they need to say regarding this particular subject by their specific actions here, by what they did with him last year, and by holding him back until mid-May this year. If we recall, his call-up this year was a bit of a reluctant one based on specific immediate need- they actually valued a healthy Schafer more up to that point.

[COtwin]

Interesting how people can make character judgements on someone without actually knowing anything about the details of the situation.  Who's charcater is actually on display here?

 

 

I'm as down on Hicks as anyone, but we're going to need to know a lot more about his situation to declare it another sign of his mental make-up being questionable.

 

This

 

We don't agree on Hicks overall but this.

 

[spinowner]

 

The ball was over his head and the win was blowing, but he got to it.  Maybe few outfielders would have gotten to that ball, but Hicks did and then he dropped it.  An OF needs to go and get balls, but then he also has to catch the balls he gets to.  Hicks made an error at a key point in the game.  That is the sign of a screwed up player, 

 

The most troubling part is that the next day, he withdraws himself from the lineup.  Once more Hicks has proven himself to be a screwed up young man.  He does not have the character needed to play big league ball.  

Withdrawn because of injury. Not troubling in the sense you mean.

[TheLeviathan]

 

So this whole thread seems to have been kicked off because off a missed catch, 

 

To try and steer away from baseless speculation, I did mean to comment on this.  People are getting caught in the moment that was my personal dealbreaker with Hicks.  But let's be honest here, most of the time when our attitudes or impressions shift about a player it takes a dramatic turn at some point.  Hicks didn't suddenly become a 4th OF, but he's been on the descent from "1st round pick, top prospect!" status to this for awhile.

 

If it helps, Brian Duensing didn't suddenly turn into a pumpkin either but we all had our moment when we said "alright, enough of this guy", same with Stauffer.  Could we have nitpicked that one moment to death and decided it wasn't the "right" moment to have that reaction?  Probably, but it doesn't change the overall issue.  It's not just this gaffe.  Or his weak at bat with the bases loaded.  It's the cumulative effect of all those moments.

[spinowner]

In case anyone hasn't heard, the scoring on the play in center field on Friday night has been changed to a hit. One more reason not to bash Hicks for that play.

[TheLeviathan]

 

In case anyone hasn't heard, the scoring on the play in center field on Friday night has been changed to a hit. One more reason not to bash Hicks for that play.

 

Or, more likely, another reason to bash home-cooked error/hit rulings.

[COtwin]

 

To try and steer away from baseless speculation, I did mean to comment on this.  People are getting caught in the moment that was my personal dealbreaker with Hicks.  But let's be honest here, most of the time when our attitudes or impressions shift about a player it takes a dramatic turn at some point.  Hicks didn't suddenly become a 4th OF, but he's been on the descent from "1st round pick, top prospect!" status to this for awhile.

 

If it helps, Brian Duensing didn't suddenly turn into a pumpkin either but we all had our moment when we said "alright, enough of this guy", same with Stauffer.  Could we have nitpicked that one moment to death and decided it wasn't the "right" moment to have that reaction?  Probably, but it doesn't change the overall issue.  It's not just this gaffe.  Or his weak at bat with the bases loaded.  It's the cumulative effect of all those moments.

I get you.  I wasn't addressing the turning point of peoples opinions on Hicks in general.  It was the specific instance.  Hicks got to the ball and should have caught it.  But I thought that the wind that was a factor all night deserved to be talked about, if this specific play was the turning point.  In my mostly uninformed opinion, the degree of difficulty on that catch was much higher than it looked. 

[jokin]

Interesting how people can make character judgements on someone without actually knowing anything about the details of the situation.  Who's charcater is actually on display here?

 

 

 

This

 

We don't agree on Hicks overall but this.

I don't know who else has posted on this, but my opinion is not based on individual character, simply on how the Twins have handled him over the last two years, how he has reacted to what the Twins expect of him, and what information the Twins have chosen to make public about him. I think the Twins back-channel questioning of him began when they let it be known that he refused to got to winter ball in his first off season, and then was asked to leave a winter ball team the next off season. Patrick Reusse has written about the "Father-Son" tug of war as he was growing up. And we know about Hicks' preference for golf. And we all were quickly made aware of Hicks' unilateral decisions last summer to stop switch-hitting, and then start again. Right during his summary dismissal from the major league team, followed by no September call-up. And clearly, the new manager was none too pleased with Hicks' lack of attention to in-game details during Spring Training

[jokin]

I don't know who else has posted on this, but my opinion is not based on individual character, simply on how the Twins have handled him over the last two years, how he has reacted to what the Twins expect of him, and what information the Twins have chosen to make public about him. I think the Twins back-channel questioning of him began when they let it be known that he refused to got to winter ball in his first off season, and then was asked to leave a winter ball team the next off season. Patrick Reusse has written about the "Father-Son" tug of war as he was growing up. And we know about Hicks' preference for golf. And we all were quickly made aware of Hicks' unilateral decisions last summer to stop switch-hitting, and then start again. Right during his summary dismissal from the major league team, followed by no September call-up. And clearly, the new manager was none too pleased with Hicks' lack of attention to in-game details during Spring Training

Having sail all that, I'm not the one who has said that Hicks "sucks". In fact, I think he can still make an excellent 4th OF, as well as possible trade bait sweetener for another team in need. And I think the Twins are on that wavelength, as well.

[ALessKosherScott]

 

You realize that Morneau's "slump" would look like an offensive onslaught from Hicks.....right?  You're cherry picking 60-70 at-bats to make a point, but Hicks has had 650 dreadful at-bats with little glimpses of positivity.  

 

Rapid fire on the rest:  Cuddyer's 2004 and 2005 are not comparable to Hicks, cmon. Dozier being older doesn't change the fact that he became a decent hitter in half the time = poor comparison.  If July 2011 was Plouffe's turning point he had only 150 PAs before it - not 650.  

 

None of these players were even close to as bad as Hicks and even their down periods were HALF the PAs afforded to Hicks at this point.

 

My two cents is I don't really care about an apples to apples comparison here. Because there's no at-bat threshhold for where a player suddenly gets it. Mike Moustakas had had way more than 650 Hicks-like at-bats before the light went off for him. Alex Gordon took fewer. Every player has a different time line, and there's no way to predict improvement. With Hicks, there's at least enough of a minor league track record in 2014 and 2015 to keep some glimmer of hope alive. You send him down and tell him what he needs to work on so he's ready when his next chance comes around. Because more than likely, he will get another chance with the Twins.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

What the heck just happened?

[TheLeviathan]

Relevant comparisons help keep a point salient. Almost every player struggles, ok, but 650 ABs is not the same as 150. At some point the sample is large enough to draw conclusions.

[ALessKosherScott]

Anyone who can tell you how long is too long for a player to struggle though must really have a good Magic 8 Ball. Player development isn't a science. And a player who hasn't figured everything out at 25 isn't really a rarity.

[TheLeviathan]

You're right about that, for me the difference with Hicks is the lack of progress over those at bats. We are no closer than we were 650 at bats ago.

[blairpaul715]

 

Saturday really can't be judged as meaning anything going forward- 30 minutes to game time they lost 2 starting OFers.... and least of all, Nunez becoming the new regular SS seems the least likely scenario.  I would think Escobar is going to get regular reps for at least a month after this OF thing shakes out and settles down.

 

Crazy stuff like what happened Saturday sure shows why you keep guys like Escobar and Nunez around for at least the time being.

I just found it odd, in my opinion they put the weaker SS at SS and the weaker LF in LF, at least i would assume most people think Escobar is a better SS than Nunez......but maybe they also think Escobar is a better LF but defensively Escobar has been poor in  LF.

[jokin]

 

I just found it odd, in my opinion they put the weaker SS at SS and the weaker LF in LF, at least i would assume most people think Escobar is a better SS than Nunez......but maybe they also think Escobar is a better LF but defensively Escobar has been poor in  LF.

 

Probably just a one-day thing.  Molitor maybe acting on a hunch or wanting to keep Esco fresh as an option both at SS and LF. 

 

More interesting to me was the skipper apparently acting on a hunch to sit Vargas and place Nunez of all people, DHing in the 5 hole.  Paid off big time today.