2016 Election Thread

[PseudoSABR]

I feel like this thread as merged with the gamethread or something...

[Craig Arko]

I feel like this thread as merged with the gamethread or something...

Life imitates Art.

[Squirrel]

I feel like this thread as merged with the gamethread or something...

Well, it could fall under elections ... dog-friendly bars/restaurants would be covered under local ordinances which could be referendums.

[ashbury]

Are you straining your beers through dog hair or something?

I feel like this thread as merged with the gamethread or something...

Den dere vass da time Ole bought his self a bird dog, dontchaknow. Him and Sven vent out to da duck blind, to test da dog, but dey vass boat disappoint. Finally Sven told Ole, "yah, you've been cheated all right, you might as vell just give dat dog avay." Ole looked back at his buddy, and said, "yah, vell, I vanna give him vun more chance. T'row him up in da air agin, an' if he don't fly I'll just sell him to some dummy who don't know no better."

[DaveW]

 

Only 1 time so far.......

 

that does not count all the times at my dad's house, where there was just hair on the plates, glasses (3 Burmese mountain dogs generate a lot of hair).

Ha, fair enough.

In my experience the bars that allow dogs:

 

1. Make sure no dog hair is in the beer

2. Don't serve any real food anyways.

I get if dogs were everywhere you went it would be annoying, but as a Dog Owner, it's kind of a nice thing from time to time to be able to hit up a brewery or bar after a long weekend walk with the pup. One of my favorite bars here is actually called "Lucky Dog" and they open up the whole backyard to dog owners, heading there is like the world's greatest dog park. My dog can have a few hours of awesomeness hanging out and playing with other dogs, and we can have a few beers outside during the nice weather.

Back on topic now:

Again, how can any reasonable human vote for Trump? I disliked Romney and the McCain/Palin (mostly bc of Palin) ticket quite a bit, but I totally get their appeal. Trump? Ugh.
 

[Bark's Lounge]

Nice speech by Barrack in the Parliament of Canada. I certainly am a fan of Justin Trudeau. I very much appreciate Canada's parliament for being a gracious host. I love my bothers and sisters to the north!

 

Canada's politics comfort me with the pieces they have in place. My country... not so much.

[ashbury]

Again, how can any reasonable human vote for Trump?

Moderator's note: we try to keep this forum area, and this thread in particular, under only a light moderation touch. But this kind of antagonistic approach to discussion can't be tolerated, not even here, and won't be. From any side of the debate. _{^{(And anyone who feels this principle needs to be discussed in its own right, for the umpteenth time - take it to the appropriate forum area.)}} A genuine interest in knowing what another side believes can be phrased in a hundred different, and more agreeable, ways. And if it's not genuine, then just state your own belief, without at the same time calling into question the reason or the humanity of someone who might disagree.

[DaveW]

Moderator's note: we try to keep this forum area, and this thread in particular, under only a light moderation touch. But this kind of antagonistic approach to discussion can't be tolerated, not even here, and won't be. From any side of the debate. _{^{(And anyone who feels this principle needs to be discussed in its own right, for the umpteenth time - take it to the appropriate forum area.)}} A genuine interest in knowing what another side believes can be phrased in a hundred different, and more agreeable, ways. And if it's not genuine, then just state your own belief, without at the same time calling into question the reason or the humanity of someone who might disagree.

I wasn't trying to be antagonistic....I haven't seen one person in this thread defend trump or support trump btw, and even mentioned how I saw the appeal of past GOP candidates and even ones this election cycle.

 

I will rephrase it: I am interested to hear how someone can vote for trump, a guy who is racist, xenophobic, petty, and clearly lies all the time (the last thing being common for many politicians...but still) what are the upsides to trump? He's kinda rich? He has a slick tongue? He will "make America great again" by kicking out all the Muslims and Mexicans? He really hasn't laid out any real plans for the economy other than (winning the trade deals) and hasn't laid out any real plans for defense as well.

 

I understand people have reservations with Hillary, but again, I don't see how those negatives come close to comparing with Trumps.

[Craig Arko]

I think the underlying fallacy here is presuming voters are rational.

 

Which reminds me: http://www.popsci.com/neil-degrasse-tyson-just-proposed-government-that-doesnt-work

 

Cute idea, but ignores human nature way too much,

[TheLeviathan]

Not all decisions have piles of evidence to weigh either.  Much of what is political is emotional and opinion based, which need not be in the realm of rationality at all.

 

It's basically just a dumbed down "Philosopher Kings" idea and no one has believed that to be a good idea for a long, long time.

[USMCTwin]

I think a lot of both Bernie's and Trump's support stems from people feeling betrayed by politicians in general. I understand the sentiment, but I feel like the analysis stopped there and didn't continue on to 'How will Trump be a good president'. I wish a republican had just been quicker to acknowledge the anger and disconnect from the general sentiment and to see if that could possibly slow Trump's wave. Unfortunately I think a lot of Trump supporters are similar to Ben Carson's ringing endorsement even if Donald Trump turns out to be not a great president it's just 4 years. If Trump were to win I would imagine we would get a lesson in change for change's sake is not always a good idea.

 

And to think at one point I thought Kanye 2020 was a joke.

[Squirrel]

 

I think a lot of both Bernie's and Trump's support stems from people feeling betrayed by politicians in general. I understand the sentiment, but I feel like the analysis stopped there and didn't continue on to 'How will Trump be a good president'. I wish a republican had just been quicker to acknowledge the anger and disconnect from the general sentiment and to see if that could possibly slow Trump's wave. Unfortunately I think a lot of Trump supporters are similar to Ben Carson's ringing endorsement even if Donald Trump turns out to be not a great president it's just 4 years. If Trump were to win I would imagine we would get a lesson in change for change's sake is not always a good idea.

 

And to think at one point I thought Kanye 2020 was a joke.

No, it's not just four years. It's decades, given the appointments he would make to the SC. 

[USMCTwin]

 

No, it's not just four years. It's decades, given the appointments he would make to the SC. 

 

To be clear. I am not a Trump supporter and don't agree with that particular sentiment. I was just responding to Dave in how his supporters can rationalize their decision.

[Squirrel]

 

To be clear. I am not a Trump supporter and don't agree with that particular sentiment. I was just responding to Dave in how his supporters can rationalize their decision.

Yeah ... I know. I just find that sentiment to be ... short-sighted ... which most voters are.

[TheLeviathan]

I find it funny, when people ask "Why Trump?" and then they get a string of answers....why is it the first reaction to go after the person relaying the reasons?  Not that you did Chi, but it did seem as though you totally missed what his post was saying.  Explanations are not justifications necessarily.

 

I've seen this a lot lately watching some of the talking heads.  People will cite interviews, surveys, and exit polls to answer the question directly and invariably the response is "Yeah but that's an awful reason!"  Well, first, if you're explaining something that doesn't mean you endorse it.  Secondly, sure, it probabyl is bad reasoning but lots of awful reasons have made actions happen before.  I think it's valuable to look at the "why" without judging the person relaying it as if they agree with that sentiment.  It's hardly a small faction of people propping this up and I doubt if Trump goes away that those reasons go away.  

 

We better get used to those reasons and see what we can do about it, if anything.  

[Squirrel]

 

I find it funny, when people ask "Why Trump?" and then they get a string of answers....why is it the first reaction to go after the person relaying the reasons?  Not that you did Chi, but it did seem as though you totally missed what his post was saying.  Explanations are not justifications necessarily.

 

I've seen this a lot lately watching some of the talking heads.  People will cite interviews, surveys, and exit polls to answer the question directly and invariably the response is "Yeah but that's an awful reason!"  Well, first, if you're explaining something that doesn't mean you endorse it.  Secondly, sure, it probabyl is bad reasoning but lots of awful reasons have made actions happen before.  I think it's valuable to look at the "why" without judging the person relaying it as if they agree with that sentiment.  It's hardly a small faction of people propping this up and I doubt if Trump goes away that those reasons go away.  

 

We better get used to those reasons and see what we can do about it, if anything.  

I'd accept this if I were the one asking. I wasn't. And I find anyone who doesn't consider court appointments and ramifications of policies while voting short-sighted. But most voters vote for candidates without any reason, really, other than they either like how things are in their lives or they don't and vote candidates in or out based on that and little else.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'd accept this if I were the one asking. I wasn't. And I find anyone who doesn't consider court appointments and ramifications of policies while voting short-sighted. But most voters vote for candidates without any reason, really, other than they either like how things are in their lives or they don't and vote candidates in or out based on that and little else.

 

And USMC wasn't the one justifying, by that logic your retort would be better served in an email to Ben Carson.

 

Most voters have a bizarre framework, mostly selfish, for their voting habits.  But the "why" is important if Trump is just going to be a fluke and not something we keep seeing come back in different forms.  Or, worse, escalates and gains momentum.

[Squirrel]

 

And USMC wasn't the one justifying, by that logic your retort would be better served in an email to Ben Carson.

 

Most voters have a bizarre framework, mostly selfish, for their voting habits.  But the "why" is important if Trump is just going to be a fluke and not something we keep seeing come back in different forms.  Or, worse, escalates and gains momentum.

 

I did acknowledge that, but whatever.

 

[Bark's Lounge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnqFy7jsmhw

[TheLeviathan]

Nice video Bark, that was a good follow up to that argument on Maher's show. Too many Afflecks on the left that just refuse to see Harris' point. But he's right and we should be listening and not shouting "racist!" everytime someone talks about Islam.

We can separate the absurd intolerance of Trump and the right wing thinking and rational, accurate critiques like this.  And there are many that are threatened with death that need our support.  

[Craig Arko]

I would wish that I lived in a land that celebrated peace the way it glorifies war. Happy 4th of July.

[mikecgrimes]

I understand why this cycle produced someone more like what Trump supporters see in Trump then say Jeb Bush.  Problem is as far as I can tell what they see in Trump is based off a lie.  Even his over the top racist rhetoric feels like a lie.  Of course a lot of people who showed up to support Trump never would of showed up for Cruz Walker or Rand Paul but even so the vote totals of Cruz showed a strong desire for meaningful change in direction of the Republican party.  I've been calling Trump a democrat all along but that's probably not the right term.  He might not be to the left of the Bush/McCain types today but he is worse in his approach.  8 years of a Democrat plus nominating Clinton should have made this election a great chance for the Republicans and maybe it still is even with Trump if Clinton can't talk her way out of her troubles the way her husband could but with Trump the Republican party goes backwards win or lose.  The only reason I could vote for him is because he might be impeachable from both sides but if his running mate is Gingrich or Christie then we gain little.

[mikecgrimes]

 

 

No, it's not just four years. It's decades, given the appointments he would make to the SC. 

Not that this isn't a valid point to remain partisan but I think we're seeing right now Supreme Court nominations are being treated differently.  If I was a Democrat I seriously would not take up a single Trump nominee without a vote on Obama's nominee.  I sure hope Republicans are smart on this and give the guy a vote so the Democrats can play that game of chicken especially if it appears Clinton will win.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I understand why this cycle produced someone more like what Trump supporters see in Trump then say Jeb Bush.  Problem is as far as I can tell what they see in Trump is based off a lie.  Even his over the top racist rhetoric feels like a lie.  Of course a lot of people who showed up to support Trump never would of showed up for Cruz Walker or Rand Paul but even so the vote totals of Cruz showed a strong desire for meaningful change in direction of the Republican party. 

 

The vote total for Cruz just reaffirms that the Republican Party still has too many social conservative whack jobs.  Until they die off and make room for more enlightened thought, the party will never be cohesive.  

 

Gary Johnson was really good on Bill Maher the other night.  I don't agree with all of his policies, but the guy is even keel, good natured, and relatable.  I hope he makes it into the debates and shows a large field of Republicans that there is an alternative to being associated with the likes of Huckabee and Cruz.

[Squirrel]

 

Not that this isn't a valid point to remain partisan but I think we're seeing right now Supreme Court nominations are being treated differently.  If I was a Democrat I seriously would not take up a single Trump nominee without a vote on Obama's nominee.  I sure hope Republicans are smart on this and give the guy a vote so the Democrats can play that game of chicken especially if it appears Clinton will win.

I know we've had this discussion months and months ago, back in the beginnings of this thread, and I know that some don't consider voting 'partisan' because of court nominations a priority, but being female, it's a huge deal for me, considering that the court itself has become more and more partisan in regards to issues of equality and health care. I wish that it weren't so, and that presidents and the Senate would look beyond that to appoint the fairest, best out there. But I'm just not willing to risk it and vote for a President or a Senator that are outside the Democratic party, period, because I've lived with the consequences of conservative policies that do not treat women and minorities equally. I'm not sure if that makes me part of this extreme partisanship problem, and I do really try to examine that from time to time, but I am that scared about these issues and the misogyny and bigotry that comes out of the woodwork, from people you least expect it, whenever these issues are discussed. And I will stop and take the time to explain to anyone, face to face, or otherwise, why this is so important to me in hopes of making them think, even just a little, that an individual's vote does have purpose, that it is that important, that it could make a lasting difference positively or negatively. I grew up in the middle of a very political family and involvement and awareness were never a question or a choice, so my ... sensitivities? ... towards politics are a bit heightened. The one thing, though, I do have to remind myself of, is don't engage those who truly out in the deepest parts of left or right field, as they are just going to do what they are going to do regardless.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

The vote total for Cruz just reaffirms that the Republican Party still has too many social conservative whack jobs.  Until they die off and make room for more enlightened thought, the party will never be cohesive.

Yeah, Ted Cruz is a continuation of the doubling down of extreme right ideas the GOP has been building upon for the past two decades.

 

It's not a new direction, it's the old direction, only moreso.

[mikecgrimes]

 

The vote total for Cruz just reaffirms that the Republican Party still has too many social conservative whack jobs....  there is an alternative to being associated with the likes of Huckabee and Cruz.

 

Thank you for comparing Cruz to Hukabee, otherwise that first sentence would be a direct insult to me.  I voted for Cruz not because he will stand up for the rights of unborn children (a good thing even if some disagree) but because he ran for senate saying what he would do and has done everything in his power to do those things.  I trust Ted Cruz.  In the case of Mike Huckabee I don't even know if I trust him more then I trust Trump, he's awful.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Thank you for comparing Cruz to Hukabee, otherwise that first sentence would be a direct insult to me.  I voted for Cruz not because he will stand up for the rights of unborn children (a good thing even if some disagree) but because he ran for senate saying what he would do and has done everything in his power to do those things.  I trust Ted Cruz.  In the case of Mike Huckabee I don't even know if I trust him more then I trust Trump, he's awful.

 

Ted Cruz is a whack job.  And he accomplished nothing.  And he'll continue to accomplish nothing.

 

He couldn't even appear to be the sane alternative to Trump.  

[Bark's Lounge]

 

I would wish that I lived in a land that celebrated peace the way it glorifies war. Happy 4th of July.

No reason to post this, but the song has the same name of today and maybe the feel of your post.

[Craig Arko]

No reason to post this, but the song has the same name of today and maybe the feel of your post.

Same here, more feeling than reason.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSUIQgEVDM4