2016 Election Thread

[Mike Sixel]

 

Bernie isn't a democrat though.

 

No, but the delegates being elected in his name are......

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

In that scenario Biden hopes in and likely wins the nomination. The dems can't put Bernie up, because there is a very good chance he would lose the GE.

Possibly.

[nicksaviking]

I said before, it's to Clinton's benefit having Sanders keep going as it keeps her in the news. Otherwise, if she clinched, it would be 100% Trump/Republicans news instead of only, let's say the 70% that it is now.

 

Maybe Clinton's floating the Sander's campaign. Joking.

 

Mostly.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I agree Bernie staying in the race keeps Hillary on her game.

[DaveW]

 

 

Maybe Clinton's floating the Sander's campaign. Joking.

 

Mostly.

Not sure how she has the budget when she is clearly funding the Trump's (who is a democrat)  campaign

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Not sure how she has the budget when she is clearly funding the Trump's (who is a democrat)  campaign

 

 

 

Priceless. Now that this thread is just a bunch of liberals yelling at each other, I miss posts like this.

[TheLeviathan]

 

That was ONE point of my argument, which is more broad than you're willing to acknowledge, quibble-master.  I'm not making a moral issue out of anything. (Please don't tell me what I'm arguing or doing or saying, as you're not doing me the service of portraying my viewpoint accurately).  

 

If people want to give him money to continue to speak about issues they feel are important (and which also have been totally marginalized in our recent public discourse) in spite of Bernie's unlikely nomination, there's nothing immoral or fishy or foolish about Bernie continuing to run his campaign and speaking for these people.  

 

So you want to be allowed to make arguments but I'm not allowed to point out how they don't really work?  I'm not quibbling, you've basically authorized him to spend because people are willing to give. I don't agree with that.  At all.

 

What is unfortunate - and this goes for all politicians, Bernie included - is selling a false bill of goods in terms of his chances in order to keep money rolling in.  I don't like it any more from him than I do Cruz or Kasich or anyone else.

[mikecgrimes]

Trump likely won't get the delegates at this stage and it will create the open/contested convention in all likelihood.

At the end of the day though he probably will get the nomination from the GOP though.

. If he didn't do the work to make sure he's getting delegates then he has no chance of his delegate total increasing on a second ballot. When you have everyone on board Endorsing Cruz it only gets worse for trump once others have a shot. If they wanted to play the he's close enough OK fine game it already would of happened.

[TheLeviathan]

 

. If he didn't do the work to make sure he's getting delegates then he has no chance of his delegate total increasing on a second ballot. When you have everyone on board Endorsing Cruz it only gets worse for trump once others have a shot. If they wanted to play the he's close enough OK fine game it already would of happened.

 

With so many NE states left to vote, Trump will almost certainly have the delegates.  Cruz has almost no appeal and anyone getting behind him is basically doing it out of desperation.  He's universally despised as a selfish do-nothing.  He's got no chance.

[mikecgrimes]

Trump will be very close but chances are he won't get there. The new York and surrounding primaries delegate count are pretty low per capita. Trump does have an outside shot at hitting the delegate threshold but something would have to change.

[PseudoSABR]

 

So you want to be allowed to make arguments but I'm not allowed to point out how they don't really work?  I'm not quibbling, you've basically authorized him to spend because people are willing to give. I don't agree with that.  At all.

No that's not what I've "basically authorized" him to do. (Again, please don't tell me what I'm arguing, because you aren't being honest about it. I keep repeating the same points about giving-voice-to-a-marginalized-view/losing-the-battle,fighting-to-win-the-war, etc.  and you keep trying to reduce my point to "people-give-bernie-money-make-it-okay." It's dishonest. Quit it.)   You know full-well, if Bernie was an establishment candidate (like you examples Jeb and Marco) with no message any different from that establishment, I wouldn't be advocating for him to stay in.  

 

It's not just that people are giving him money, it's also why they are giving him money.  The notion that Bernie supporters are delusional is just wrong; I imagine people still giving him money know full-well the odds against him winning the nomination -- therefore they are giving that money to pursue a goal that is separate from the nomination.  There's something larger at work.  Call it a social movement.

 

I think what really bothers you is that Bernie's supporters are using his platform as "a candidate for president" to give voice to their cause, even though his candidacy stands little chance of winning.  I think you dislike the Machiavellian aspect of running an unwinnable campaign to promote a cause.   That might be a fair criticism, but it's certainly shouldn't implicate Bernie, but rather his supporters.  

[DaveW]

 

 

Trump will be very close but chances are he won't get there. The new York and surrounding primaries delegate count are pretty low per capita. Trump does have an outside shot at hitting the delegate threshold but something would have to change.

Yeah, I think Trump will be close, but will fall just short. Him getting killed in Utah hurts his chances at getting the total delegate count he needed.

[TheLeviathan]

 

]It's not just that people are giving him money, it's also why they are giving him money.  The notion that Bernie supporters are delusional is just wrong; I imagine people still giving him money know full-well the odds against him winning the nomination -- therefore they are giving that money to pursue a goal that is separate from the nomination.  There's something larger at work.  Call it a social movement.

 

I think what really bothers you is that Bernie's supporters are using his platform as "a candidate for president" to give voice to their cause, even though his candidacy stands little chance of winning.  I think you dislike the Machiavellian aspect of running an unwinnable campaign to promote a cause.   That might be a fair criticism, but it's certainly shouldn't implicate Bernie, but rather his supporters.  

 

Yeesh with the "woe is me" act.  You keep stating that if they are giving him money that it authorizes him to continue.  People are willing to give money to a host of stupid things from mega churches to politicians.  A willingness to give is "authorization" to do nothing, not from a moral perspective.  A fool and his money are soon parted, that doesn't make it ok to keep asking him to part with it.  

 

And I deeply disagree that people know that they are giving to a lost cause.  Sanders supporters do not act like that in any way, shape, or form.  They continue to repeat what Bernie says - that the road is easier and the nomination is still possible.  Go look at that reddit thread Dave posted and tell me that this is about social awareness or keeping Sanders propped up in the name of an idea.  It's not - there is a deeply held belief that Clinton can still be beat and part of that comes from Sanders himself saying that he can.  And it's completely delusional.

[DaveW]

 

 The notion that Bernie supporters are delusional is just wrong; I imagine people still giving him money know full-well the odds against him winning the nomination -- therefore they are giving that money to pursue a goal that is separate from the nomination.  There's something larger at work.  Call it a social movement.

 

 

But the majority of them really dont! That is because Sanders keeps telling them that he WILL win.

Most of these are young college students or previous non voters who have no real grasp on how this whole thing works.

[DaveW]

 

 

 

And I deeply disagree that people know that they are giving to a lost cause.  Sanders supporters do not act like that in any way, shape, or form.  They continue to repeat what Bernie says - that the road is easier and the nomination is still possible.  Go look at that reddit thread Dave posted and tell me that this is about social awareness or keeping Sanders propped up in the name of an idea.  It's not - there is a deeply held belief that Clinton can still be beat and part of that comes from Sanders himself saying that he can.  And it's completely delusional.

Yup, that whole reddit subreddit is HUGE, and go check out the top story now: "Clinton ordered voter fraud in Arizona to win" Seriously, this is what Bernie Sanders supporters are now grasping to, that Bernie only lost Arizona because Hilary Clinton somehow was able to keep a bunch of white college age kids from being able to vote for Bernie....it's preposterous!

 

Now not all Bernie fans are delusional and think he can win, that would be silly, but I would wager that over 70% of his current supporters are drinking the kool-aid that he still has a real shot to win. At some point I hope he has the moral obligation to drop out and stop taking these susceptible people's money.

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

Yeesh with the "woe is me" act.  You keep stating that if they are giving him money that it authorizes him to continue.  People are willing to give money to a host of stupid things from mega churches to politicians.  A willingness to give is "authorization" to do nothing, not from a moral perspective.  A fool and his money are soon parted, that doesn't make it ok to keep asking him to part with it.  

 

And I deeply disagree that people know that they are giving to a lost cause.  Sanders supporters do not act like that in any way, shape, or form.  They continue to repeat what Bernie says - that the road is easier and the nomination is still possible.  Go look at that reddit thread Dave posted and tell me that this is about social awareness or keeping Sanders propped up in the name of an idea.  It's not - there is a deeply held belief that Clinton can still be beat and part of that comes from Sanders himself saying that he can.  And it's completely delusional.

Reddit? Marco and Jeb?  I wonder what evidence you'll next come up with to ignore my major point - that without the campaign continuing to exist, Bernie's message goes no where. (And he also gives up any leverage to influence what happens at the convention.) 

 

There are no doubt delusional Bernie supporters (esp. the young ones, who probably aren't even donating), but to suggest that most Bernie supporters can't do the math or know the odds is itself delusional.  What's also delusional to the point of profane is the notion that Bernie is some bilking his supporters. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Reddit? Marco and Jeb?  I wonder what evidence you'll next come up with to ignore my major point - that without the campaign continuing to exist, Bernie's message goes no where. (And he also gives up any leverage to influence what happens at the convention.) 

 

There are no doubt delusional Bernie supporters (esp. the young ones, who probably aren't even donating), but to suggest that most Bernie supporters can't do the math or know the odds is itself delusional.  What's also delusional to the point of profane is the notion that Bernie is some bilking his supporters. 

 

My point is that whether he stays in or not his message has reached its peak.  It's going no where regardless.  There isn't anything more to be gained.  I don't think he has any more influence at the convention than what he has already done to influence Clinton.  Nothing he says from here on is going to sway Clinton any more to the left.  As I said - I think he's reached the point at which there is no return on his investment in running - not personally, not nationally, not for his ideas.  He probably peaked in Michigan.

 

All politicians without a chance are bilking their supporters when they keep going out and telling them something that isn't true.  And Sanders, like many politicians before him, is doing exactly that.  He continues to say that he will win and it is absolutely influencing his supporters.  There is absolutely a genuine belief that he can still win and it's being fed by Sanders himself who continues to state that he'll sway those super delegates when he sweeps through the rest of the primaries.  Sorry, but this isn't some noble falling on the sword for ideas - politics almost never is.

[PseudoSABR]

 

My point is that whether he stays in or not his message has reached its peak.  It's going no where regardless.  There isn't anything more to be gained.  

Well, that's where you and his supporters disagree.  As soon as he drops out, the conversation about wealth disparity ends (at least on the national stage).  I don't understand how you can just dismiss that. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well, that's where you and his supporters disagree.  As soon as he drops out, the conversation about wealth disparity ends (at least on the national stage).  I don't understand how you can just dismiss that. 

 

I don't see how on earth Hillary would be dumb enough to drop that issue on the national stage.  Hell, even the Republicans are making that argument.  It's not going away when Sanders goes away.

 

Sanders supporters would go far further with their ideas if they shifted their funding and enthusiasm to senate and house races.  If this was truly about the battle of ideas.

[Craig Arko]

Probably time to bring the name-calling down a notch.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Probably time to bring the name-calling down a notch.

Fascist!

[Craig Arko]

Fascist!

Fascist Pig to you.

[stringer bell]

I know the last two comments are in jest, but please do pull it back a notch. The back and forth is becoming bickering. When there are a lot of "you saids" and "what I said" you're putting your toes on or over the line.

[stringer bell]

I think if Trump gets between 1225 and and 1236 delegates, there will be incredible pressure on undecided and commitments to candidates who dropped out to back Trump as the nominee. Carson has a few delegates and he has endorsed the Donald.

 

The fact of the matter is that if Trump didn't get the nom, he would enrage 40-49% of the delegates. It wouldn't be pretty.

 

Breaking news:   Jeb Bush endorses Cruz. Ted Cruz has become the establishment's hope to derail Trump. This is not a report from The Onion.

[nicksaviking]

Priceless. Now that this thread is just a bunch of liberals yelling at each other, I miss posts like this.

Liberals don't yell.

 

We pompously vociferate and condescend in tweed jackets.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Liberals don't yell.

We pompously vociferate and condescend in tweed jackets.

I don't even talk these days, I just straight up impose my beliefs on others.  

[DaveW]

 

I think if Trump gets between 1225 and and 1266 delegates, there will be incredible pressure on undecided and commitments to candidates who dropped out to back Trump as the nominee. Carson has a few delegates and he has endorsed the Donald.

 

The fact of the matter is that if Trump didn't get the nom, he would enrage 40-49% of the delegates. It wouldn't be pretty.

 

Breaking news:   Jeb Bush endorses Cruz. Ted Cruz has become the establishment's hope to derail Trump. This is not a report from The Onion.

Yeah, basically at this point if Trump has the most delegates heading into the convention and somehow gets screwed out of the nomination, he will go scorched earth, run independent and destroy the GOP's chances (though they are pretty small to begin with) and frankly, I couldn't blame him one bit. The guy is a complete jackass (is it ok if I call him a name?) but he is getting the most votes/delegates.

[Craig Arko]

Liberals don't yell.

We pompously vociferate and condescend in tweed jackets.

Fatigues.

 

And hoodies.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Bernie has accumulated 43% of the electoral delegates tallied thus far.

 

He won two of three states and gained 20-something delegates on Clinton yesterday.

 

Will he win? No.

 

But if you think he's not getting his message out there when he's collecting nearly 45% of the Democratic votes, I don't know what to say. Many Bernie fans may be delusional - god knows, I've had to block three of them on Facebook in the past month because I just couldn't take it anymore - but it's also delusional to think a guy who is grabbing over 40% of the party's votes isn't spreading his message with each additional win or near-win.

[TheLeviathan]

I just don't see it Brock, I don't see how it's advancing any further.  I think Michigan was the peak.