Article: Twins sign Ynoa for $800k

[bird]

I'd suggest that the fans may end up as the most aggrieved victims if a whole slew of the Yankee's new prospects pan out in a few years and the competitive balance fans so desperately want takes a step back by a decade. Not predicting this of course, but it could happen.

[tobi0040]

I'm not sure you can say the system favors foreign players, just because they are on the free market and not a slotted draft. At least it doesn't always faver them.

 

Take Lewis Thorpe for instance. It's arguably too bad Thorpe hadn't grown up in the US because, if he had, he'd have just graduated HS, been drafted in June, and would have gotten top money for a bonus.

 

No system is perfect. Any system set up by a cartel like MLB owners, in negotiation with a players union with 100% loyalty to existing MLB players, not the young players (foreign or domestic), will be flawed.

 

If the other 29 owners are willing adopt systems that let the Yankees treat any penalties like a speeding ticket, then they get what they deserve - a very uneven playing field when it comes to competitive balance.

 

Those owners aren't really "hurt," though, because they each get a pretty hefty share of the financial pie, whether their teams ever win anything or not. The only people really screwed over are the new/minor league domestic and foreign players who have their compensation levels artificially restricted because they have no representation when the rules of the game are established.

 

Maybe not 100% of the time. But having 30 choices and being able to sign at 16 versus being picked at 18 or 21 is an advantage. Sano and Ynoa (older) received bonuses similar to a top 5 pick and they did so when they were 16 year old.

 

Tanaka was able to sign a $150M dollar deal at 24. He didn't have to play in the minors, come up with a team owning his rights and making rookie or arbitration dollars for 6-7 years. Jose Abreau received $70M.

[Steven Buhr]

I'd suggest that the fans may end up as the most aggrieved victims if a whole slew of the Yankee's new prospects pan out in a few years and the competitive balance fans so desperately want takes a step back by a decade. Not predicting this of course, but it could happen.

 

Of course, this is counterbalanced somewhat when I think of how much fun it will be to make fun of the Yankees when they still suck even after blowing all that cash on 16 year olds who never make it past A ball. And given the way the dice rolls on these kids, that's probably at least as likely as the chance a slew of these guys do pan out for NY

[diehardtwinsfan]

I would hope the reason you don't walk out with a turkey is because it's wrong. And the rule does NOT say you can overspend in exchange for a fee. It says you shall limit your spending, period. Then it describes the penalties. Which we all agree was an insufficient financial deterrent. I contend it should be a deterrent strictly because it's wrong to cheat the fans, and the other teams too. Competitive balance is a worthy goal, and the Yankkess are shoving it in all of our faces.

 

You are right in that I wouldn't walk out with the turkey because it is wrong. Where I think your argument fails is because you assume that there's a standard of right and wrong that we can all agree on. Even in the turkey analogy, there are plenty that would justify those actions for the very reasons you specified, or for other reasons altogether. It's the penalty that keeps people from doing it. That said, there's a huge difference between shoplifting something that someone else owns and a group of really rich people getting together to setup rules to suppress a labor market and then providing very little disincentive for a handful of said owners who choose to go about and pay market value for the labor, and that's what is going on here.

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with the Yankees looking at the penalty and deciding that it isn't severe enough to deter the behavior. This isn't morally wrong. The rules allow for it. The Yankees will pay the penalty, and they know it. I also suspect that there would be very little outrage if this were the Twins behaving in that capacity. I also suspect most of us secretly want our team to be doing this.

[tobi0040]

I also suspect most of us secretly want our team to be doing this.

 

Certainly a lot of truth to this part. I can say I would not be proposing better rules if we were signing guys left and right.

[TheLeviathan]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the Yankees looking at the penalty and deciding that it isn't severe enough to deter the behavior. This isn't morally wrong. The rules allow for it. The Yankees will pay the penalty, and they know it. I also suspect that there would be very little outrage if this were the Twins behaving in that capacity. I also suspect most of us secretly want our team to be doing this.

 

Pretty much akin to how the wealthy look at the legal system. In many cases they know their won't be any real cost they can't afford.

[Dman]

 

There's nothing inherently wrong with the Yankees looking at the penalty and deciding that it isn't severe enough to deter the behavior. This isn't morally wrong. The rules allow for it. The Yankees will pay the penalty, and they know it. I also suspect that there would be very little outrage if this were the Twins behaving in that capacity. I also suspect most of us secretly want our team to be doing this.

 

I don't know this seems like a slippery slope argument at best. Do we all have to stop for stop signs, no but if no one follows the rule and everyone takes the penalty there is going to be a lot of car accidents. We follow rules because they lead us in an agreed upon direction. When willfully broken it is typically a criminal act (i.e. immoral action). By some teams operating in bad faith and saying that is MORAL behavior that is a disconnect for me. I don't see that as possible. Granted we all see what is acceptable and unacceptable differently but saying there is nothing wrong with willfully breaking a rule seems disingenuous to me. Some rule that was broken typically equals bad. Thus the word broken or not whole or not working. I would say moral behavior is about ethics, following rules or laws, being Honorable the list goes on and on. I see none of those things in what the Cubs and Yankee's did. So yes I think what they did is morally wrong.

[Thrylos]

Had Stephen Strasburg been from Europe, he could have signed with any team with no cap on his bonus.

 

ummmm

 

there was no cap on bonuses when he was drafted. He could negotiate (and did) exactly as if he were european or?

 

As a matter of fact, Strasburg took a $7.5 million bonus that was part of a $15.1 million MLB contract. Cannot remember the last 16 year old amateur international free agent to get anything similar

[maxisagod]

Maybe MLB does not want an international draft? ...

It would seem that lower bonuses would create a situation where the academies are not rewarded as much and in turn, they could take in fewer kids, some could close, etc. Maybe in a twisted way they do make the MLB product better.

Thoughts?

 

Hmmm,

Well, you'd need to allow trading draft picks. This would allow teams who place more value on players a chance to draft them, and move more money into players pockets. In fact I think this is why you can trade cap space now, it a transition model, which would lead more creditability to the "set up to fail" argument some people have been preaching.

 

Also, as it is right now, these trainers act as agents, so there is still a lot of money to be made, they can set up try outs with MLB clubs, sign them up for the draft, and as long as there is at least 30 big pay outs, and a couple hundred medium ones, they could stay in business, it just not a model that has a lot of growth in it (which is what the MLB wants). But if agents like Plummer (Sano's agent) start moving in, there would be less reason to set up shop.

 

That being said, are these trainers really for the benefit of these kids? There big pay day is getting the kids signed, after that, they may not care, overusing kids arms or making pre draft deals and having them sit for almost a year can't be in their best long term interests. There are 30 MLB training facilities in the DR, wouldn't they be more interest it their future growth and successes. It's like that college route thing, do colleges that make young pitchers pitch 130-140 pitches, really care about their long term health, or are they just try to win now?

 

Here's the question I still trying to figure out, how about the late bloomers, the 17 or 18 year olds who start showing off? Do they just go into the draft next year or is there a way for them to get paid sooner?

[bird]

Pretty much akin to how the wealthy look at the legal system. In many cases they know their won't be any real cost they can't afford.

 

I don't know many wealthy people who look at the legal system like that, but when they do, it's inherently wrong. When, for example, stock traders find a way to front run others on trades, it's morally reprehensible despite the fact that they break no rules or laws The Yankees are breaking the rules. It cheats others. They're dishonest, immoral, cheating wealthy people.

[Jim H]

A lot of you seem to assuming that many international signings work out. I don't believe that is really true. I expect the Yankees and others assume that an international draft will be instituted so the most they will loss will be 2 top thirty picks. I expect a draft maybe agreed upon but may not be instituted for 2 years. That will mean that the teams that followed the rules will be able to sign free agents for the next two years without competition from the Yankees or other teams that ignored the limits this year.

 

 

More importantly, unless this is truly an unusual year, very few of the expensive signings will actually contribute to the major league team. The odds are against international signings, really. Part of the reason the Twins are heavily involved, is that it is relatively inexpensive, and if you do find impact players, the return will greatly outweigh the investment. I am not so sure that the Twins will really favor a draft. Their method of scouting and investing in 2nd tier international signings, has brought a lot of interesting prospects to the Twins over the last few years. How many will be top major league players remains to be seen, but at least there are a number of intriguing prospects.

[Monkeypaws]

Reading the McDaniel article pretty much confirms what I half-suspected; that one reason the Yankees were willing to shoot the moon this year is that they think an international draft will be implemented, negating the two years of penalties they would otherwise be subjected to.

 

IF baseball does adopt an international draft and they don't find some way to enforce the back end of penalties for what the Yankees are doing, it will simply confirm that MLB is being run under the philosophy that whatever is good for the Yankees is good for baseball. But then we've all pretty much known that's been the case under Selig all along.

 

Could you elaborate on this please? I am intrigued.

[Guest USAFChief]

The Yankees are breaking the rules. It cheats others. They're dishonest, immoral, cheating wealthy people.

Regardless if that's true or not, complaining about it accomplishes nothing. I wish the Twins had adopted a similar strategy.

[Jeremy Nygaard]

I'm convinced more than ever the Yankees strategy is a terrible one. If you're going to ignore the bonus pool, do it in the draft. The likelihood of missing on an 18-year-old is high, but it's exponentially higher on a 16-year-old. The best international players haven't been the ones that have gotten the huge bonuses... sure, the Yankees probably get a couple of major leaguers out of this, but I'd be absolutely shocked if we looked back at this seven years from now and say, "Man, the Yankees really fooled the rest of the league." This isn't like they got 10 first round draft picks.

[maxisagod]

I'm convinced more than ever the Yankees strategy is a terrible one. If you're going to ignore the bonus pool, do it in the draft. The likelihood of missing on an 18-year-old is high, but it's exponentially higher on a 16-year-old. The best international players haven't been the ones that have gotten the huge bonuses... sure, the Yankees probably get a couple of major leaguers out of this, but I'd be absolutely shocked if we looked back at this seven years from now and say, "Man, the Yankees really fooled the rest of the league." This isn't like they got 10 first round draft picks.

 

Yankee's don't wait for them to become Major Leaguers, they trade these guys off while their value is high, for Major Leaguers. The Yankees are obtaining capital, which is important because less premium talent is making it to free agency, so the A's right now have an advantage over the Yankees, one the Yankees plan to by pass with money.

[pierre75275]

I agree with Jeremy on this. I believe the strategy is really quite poor. First of all you have the initial cost. The Yankees have said they are willing to spend 30 million on draft picks. With the penalties that means that they will spend nearly 60 million total if I understand it that the thirty million was for signing picks and not penalties. Next all these players have to be on the 40 man in 5 years. If not hey are exposed to rule 5. In my opinion there is a huge risk here where the yankees could have just sunk 60 million for a shot in the darknand a prayer

[Vervehound]

I'm convinced more than ever the Yankees strategy is a terrible one. If you're going to ignore the bonus pool, do it in the draft. The likelihood of missing on an 18-year-old is high, but it's exponentially higher on a 16-year-old. The best international players haven't been the ones that have gotten the huge bonuses... sure, the Yankees probably get a couple of major leaguers out of this, but I'd be absolutely shocked if we looked back at this seven years from now and say, "Man, the Yankees really fooled the rest of the league." This isn't like they got 10 first round draft picks.

 

i think your argument is refuting itself. why would a team overspend in the draft and lose picks if those were more valuable? by increasing the number of chances in the international signing lottery, you're increasing the odds of hitting on one and you have the pick of all the top talent to do so, whereas in the draft you'd be working with a limited pool of marginally signable guys after your first pick. the yankees are spot on.

[Mike Sixel]

If you have the money, and you care more about winning than adding to your billionaire pile of money, how is the Yankee strategy bad, as it relates to money? They will still sign free agent major league players. The money is not an issue for them.

 

Who here has once said we think these guys usually work out? No one has. The question is, do higher ranked guys work out more often than low ones.......and as I said, I don't think that data is out there yet.

[twinsfan34]

Each year there's around 20-40 International FA signings per team and 40 rounds in the June Rule IV Draft. The June Rule IV has more players who make MLB, however, the WAR for the international FA's have higher frequency of 30+ WAR careers.*

 

*Based on taking top 100 BA prospects since they started making the list. They have how they were acquired.

 

You're looking at under 5-10% success rate (makes an appearance in MLB) overall.

 

But exactness of Int. FA's that make MLB or have 30+ WAR per season per club...I haven't found a data set that would enable that sort of metric.

 

But if you sign one Miguel Sano and you flop for 3 straight years of $15M (way over pool)...so $45M would you consider it a success to have spent $45M to acquire a hitter who hit 30-35 HR each year?

[bird]

Regardless if that's true or not, complaining about it accomplishes nothing. I wish the Twins had adopted a similar strategy.

 

In my opinion, Chief, if more people took the proper ethical stance and complained about it, perhaps something gets accomplished.

[Mike Sixel]

In my opinion, Chief, if more people took the proper ethical stance and complained about it, perhaps something gets accomplished.

 

It might be unethical, but I have not decided if it is or not.......but I'd concede that it might be.

[drivlikejehu]

The best international players haven't been the ones that have gotten the huge bonuses...

 

Well, the Twins cheaped out on Miguel Cabrera... he's pretty good.