Scoggins lowers the boom on Twins/Hicks situation

[old nurse]

You're completing skating by the main point of this entire situation, it's about what's best for the Twins and for Hicks. The Twins FO agrees with most fans that Hicks has serious issues that need to be addressed, to which Hicks added yet another wrinkle just last Monday- so both the FO and many fans would beg to differ with your conclusion that "There is no reason to think the outcome with Hicks will be any different whatever league he plays in".

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with the projected mediocre performances and comparisons of Presley and Mastroianni relative to Hicks, and everything to do with the Twins needlessly throwing away their CF depth, should Hicks (as borne out) need to go to AAA to work in a lower stress environment and not hurt the major league team, to remedy the very things the Twins FO now admits they would have done sooner, if they only still had their original OF depth.

 

Did going to AAA improve Collabello or Parmelee's game?

[TheLeviathan]

Did going to AAA improve Collabello or Parmelee's game?

 

It did for Hunter and Morneau....is this something we continue ad infinitum?

 

If the minor leagues weren't effective for helping with player development.....they wouldn't be used for player development. By and large, where the pressure is off, that's a safer place to work on skills.

[old nurse]

It did for Hunter and Morneau....is this something we continue ad infinitum?

 

If the minor leagues weren't effective for helping with player development.....they wouldn't be used for player development. By and large, where the pressure is off, that's a safer place to work on skills.

 

I should have expanded. There comes a point that going back to the minors does not help. Coming up through the system as a Morneua and Hunter is one thing. Going down for injury rehab is another. Yoyoing back and forth starts to signify borderline mlb talent. Maybe the reality is that Hicks is just that, a borderline talent. He wouldn't be the first Twins player to have talent without the ability to use it. It is that pressure to perform that Hicks has to manage. If the pressure is off in the minors, Hicks will not learn. If his mechanics are sound, then the problem comes with what he swings at. If he can't hit mlb pitching, he is not going to see much of it in the minors. He can hit the lower level of pitching, but if he has to learn what pitches to go after and what not to, then he needs the AB at the major league level to learn and prove it.

[WLFINN]

How does one prove that going back to AAA is what made it click for Morny and Hunter? Maybe the same thing happens if they stay in the big leagues..

[TheLeviathan]

How does one prove that going back to AAA is what made it click for Morny and Hunter? Maybe the same thing happens if they stay in the big leagues..

 

Arguing about counterfactuals is counter-productive.

[TheLeviathan]

I should have expanded. There comes a point that going back to the minors does not help. Coming up through the system as a Morneua and Hunter is one thing. Going down for injury rehab is another. Yoyoing back and forth starts to signify borderline mlb talent. Maybe the reality is that Hicks is just that, a borderline talent. He wouldn't be the first Twins player to have talent without the ability to use it. It is that pressure to perform that Hicks has to manage. If the pressure is off in the minors, Hicks will not learn. If his mechanics are sound, then the problem comes with what he swings at. If he can't hit mlb pitching, he is not going to see much of it in the minors. He can hit the lower level of pitching, but if he has to learn what pitches to go after and what not to, then he needs the AB at the major league level to learn and prove it.

 

Except Hicks really hasn't proven he can hit the lower level pitching. Certainly not with this new approach. That's a very key difference.

[WLFINN]

Was just curious how the assumption was made that is all

[stringer bell]

Hicks has IIRC 82 plate appearances at AAA. Going back to that level and mastering it would make sense. We all know every athlete is different and we can't predict with certainty what is best for them. However, it makes perfect sense for a guy with obvious tools to work on his game in the minors. Probably the most unusual thing about Hicks is that he came to the majors as a patient hitter. Many guys have to go back to the minors to learn to swing at strikes. I think Hicks has a tougher job of learning to make good contact.

 

Going back to Hicks' tools, his throwing arm is top of the scale, but the other tools aren't at that point. He's never been a dominant hitter and his power would probably only tally to average. It seems to me that Hicks' speed is good, but not more than that. OTOH, one of the guys to whom he has been compared, Carlos Gomez does have great power and game-changing speed.

[jokin]

Tom Powers adds some additional back-story to Hicks's switch-hitting history, with some passive-aggressive doubt thrown in before he's finished.

 

http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_25854332/tom-powers-aaron-hicks-dumps-switch-hitting-and

 

Although it was fairly well-know that Joe Hicks, Aaron's father, made his son convert to a switch hitter at age 13, much more of the background involved in that decision was fleshed out by Powers. Long story short, Aaron promised his Dad that, to continue playing baseball, he would have to do it as a switch hitter....Aaron called his father last weekend to get his blessing for a change he felt he had to make, and the senior Hicks told him he understood what he felt he had to do.

 

And then there was these nuggets:

 

What Hicks is attempting is not unprecedented. Shane Victorino of the Red Sox quit switch hitting during the 2013 season. Accomplished hitters J.T. Snow, Rico Petrocelli and Reggie Jefferson all quit switch hitting during their careers.Hicks hasn't heard of any of those players. One name he has heard, however, is "Eduardo Nunez," who sits two lockers over from him.

"I know that name!" Hicks said with a laugh.

Nunez was a switch hitter during his first few minor league seasons in the Yankees system. Then he went to batting right-handed exclusively.

"Their idea," Nunez noted.

 

So far...so good...but then...

 

"My first two or three games I was thinking, 'I can do this!' " Nunez recalled. "But after a while, you start getting that slider away and it's hard. You feel good, but you don't feel good. Oh for four, oh for four, oh for four ... It took three weeks to feel comfortable."At this level it is tough, but he can do it. Just be patient."

Said Hicks: "When I was thinking about it, we actually talked a little bit about it. He was talking about how he went, like, 1 for 50. I was like, uh, all right ...

 

A heart-warming story...closing with a cautionary tale to be careful what you wish for?

 

Hicks may be hitting .195, but he certainly leads the league in drama. He can't seem to lie low.

"Hey, I'm trying," he said.

[jokin]

Hicks may be hitting .195, but he certainly leads the league in drama. He can't seem to lie low.

"Hey, I'm trying," he said.

 

Probably nothing, but Hicks is now sitting for a second day in a row. There was some speculation in print that Hicks might have tweaked his back yesterday doing extra work on his right-handed vs. right hand swings.

[Brock Beauchamp]

There was some speculation in print that Hicks might have tweaked his back yesterday doing extra work on his right-handed vs. right hand swings.

 

Hey, at least he's trying.

 

In all seriousness, if that's true, it's a good sign that Hicks is putting in the effort to do all he can to succeed as a right-handed hitter.

[old nurse]

Except Hicks really hasn't proven he can hit the lower level pitching. Certainly not with this new approach. That's a very key difference.

 

Being able to recognize pitches for where they are going is not the problem for Hicks given his ability to take walks. It would appear he can tell where a pitch is going. The issue comes when the bat leaves the shoulder. That is what makes his case different from the other players you mentioned.

[old nurse]

Probably nothing, but Hicks is now sitting for a second day in a row. There was some speculation in print that Hicks might have tweaked his back yesterday doing extra work on his right-handed vs. right hand swings.

Hmmm 15 day dl, rehab assignment, management saves face for not having to really demote him.

[TheLeviathan]

Being able to recognize pitches for where they are going is not the problem for Hicks given his ability to take walks. It would appear he can tell where a pitch is going. The issue comes when the bat leaves the shoulder. That is what makes his case different from the other players you mentioned.

 

I fail to see how this is a way out of the issue here. Any way you slice it he hasn't had the kind of success when the bat leaves his shoulder to indicate he should be learning a new skill against the best pitchers in the world.

 

Let him see some AAA sliders in between (hopefully) mashing some AAA fastballs. I'll keep saying it: confidence is openly a concern for this kid. He needs the best environment for success for him and MLB pitching has almost a full season of proving that this level isn't the place for that.

[jokin]

Probably nothing, but Hicks is now sitting for a second day in a row. There was some speculation in print that Hicks might have tweaked his back yesterday doing extra work on his right-handed vs. right hand swings.

 

And the plot thickens in Florida.

 

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?gid=2014_05_29_ftmafa_clrafa_1&t=g_box&sid=milb

 

CF depth might now be officially considered a Twins top priority, if not an urgency. Appearing in the lineup tonight for the Miracle, former OF, then-recent 2ndB, Eddie Rosario, comes off of suspension tonight, and in his first appearance, will be playing in CF.

 

Is there any scenario if Rosario plays well enough in Ft Myers, and soon New Britain, that he gets a shot in CF with the Twins before the season is over? And even more importantly, assuming Buxton's ascension to the Twins is continued in the current holding pattern, is Rosario now in a position to challenge Hicks for the starting job in CF coming out of ST, 2015?

[The Wise One]

And the plot thickens in Florida.

 

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?gid=2014_05_29_ftmafa_clrafa_1&t=g_box&sid=milb

 

CF depth might now be officially considered a Twins top priority, if not an urgency. Appearing in the lineup tonight for the Miracle, former OF, then-recent 2ndB, Eddie Rosario, comes off of suspension tonight, and in his first appearance, will be playing in CF.

 

Is there any scenario if Rosario plays well enough in Ft Myers, and soon New Britain, that he gets a shot in CF with the Twins before the season is over? And even more importantly, assuming Buxton's ascension to the Twins is continued in the current holding pattern, is Rosario now in a position to challenge Hicks for the starting job in CF coming out of ST, 2015?

 

Is Rosario the second coming of Mike Trout?

Seriously. A September call up if he is lights out in New Britain. It would have to be a lot better than his 2013 in New Britain.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

And the plot thickens in Florida.

 

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?gid=2014_05_29_ftmafa_clrafa_1&t=g_box&sid=milb

 

CF depth might now be officially considered a Twins top priority, if not an urgency. Appearing in the lineup tonight for the Miracle, former OF, then-recent 2ndB, Eddie Rosario, comes off of suspension tonight, and in his first appearance, will be playing in CF.

 

Is there any scenario if Rosario plays well enough in Ft Myers, and soon New Britain, that he gets a shot in CF with the Twins before the season is over? And even more importantly, assuming Buxton's ascension to the Twins is continued in the current holding pattern, is Rosario now in a position to challenge Hicks for the starting job in CF coming out of ST, 2015?

 

There's something significant going on (probably a few things) that we don't know about.

 

What happened to Hicks as a place holder until Buxton arrives?

[jokin]

Is Rosario the second coming of Mike Trout?

Seriously. A September call up if he is lights out in New Britain. It would have to be a lot better than his 2013 in New Britain.

 

Did anyone say one word about this situation even remotely resembling a Mike Trout scenario promotion? And of course, the scenario presumes that Rosario is able to build on his 70-game stint in New Britain from last season (which was actually much better than you presume, particularly for a guy who was nearly 4 years too young for AA).

 

 

It's fairly obvious that the Twins, by their own admission are in scramble mode, even adding Chris Hermann to the CF depth chart. They admit that Hicks would be in AAA if they had a viable option. They have no indication on when/if Fuld can return to action, and even then, he is now at the point where, as he apparently is "resuming baseball activities", he still would require a rehab stint. They have a rookie SS without CF experience starting the last 2 games. Buxton is missing in action, apparently nowhere close to even beginning baseball activities, he's at the point where soon the entire season is basically a write-off. Apparently, Chris Parmelee is the final emergency resort in the absolute worst-case scenario.

 

My suggestion was based on Rosario showing baseball acuity in CF above a mere pulse in AA, that the Twins by starting him out in CF right off the bat today, they recognize the gaping hole in the organization at the upper levels, and are leaving all options open- in this case, that "before the season is over", maybe the Twins give Rosario a look during the September call-up, to help formulate their CF plans for April 1, 2015.

[Kwak]

Santana as a CF leaves me empty. This is the second "throw home" that has missed the plate and allowed a runner on third to score.

 

The arguements about hitting in AAA ignore the obvious logic: if it's easier to hit "down there" then Hicks is going to be prepared to hit for the Twins--but if hitting in AAA truly is relevant preparation, then Hicks should play for the Twins and prove himself at the major league level. Watching Gardenhire run "open mike" CF auditions is exasperating--especially when the plan is to play Buxton in CF.

[jokin]

Santana as a CF leaves me empty. This is the second "throw home" that has missed the plate and allowed a runner on third to score.

 

Great get on Santana, Kwak. Even though he has a great arm, at this point, Santana's understandably more using an infielder's quick-release, short-range, rifle-like throw and lacks the more requisite calibrated cannon-shot approach with a little built-in arc. Obviously, that was a makeable play by a more experienced outfielder with a decent arm, and quite costly in a one-run loss.

[The Wise One]

Did anyone say one word about this situation even remotely resembling a Mike Trout scenario promotion? And of course, the scenario presumes that Rosario is able to build on his 70-game stint in New Britain from last season (which was actually much better than you presume, particularly for a guy who was nearly 4 years too young for AA).

 

 

It's fairly obvious that the Twins, by their own admission are in scramble mode, even adding Chris Hermann to the CF depth chart. They admit that Hicks would be in AAA if they had a viable option. They have no indication on when/if Fuld can return to action, and even then, he is now at the point where, as he apparently is "resuming baseball activities", he still would require a rehab stint. They have a rookie SS without CF experience starting the last 2 games. Buxton is missing in action, apparently nowhere close to even beginning baseball activities, he's at the point where soon the entire season is basically a write-off. Apparently, Chris Parmelee is the final emergency resort in the absolute worst-case scenario.

 

My suggestion was based on Rosario showing baseball acuity in CF above a mere pulse in AA, that the Twins by starting him out in CF right off the bat today, they recognize the gaping hole in the organization at the upper levels, and are leaving all options open- in this case, that "before the season is over", maybe the Twins give Rosario a look during the September call-up, to help formulate their CF plans for April 1, 2015.

 

Rosario was an average hitter in his half season at New Britain. I would be nore than amused at how you could spin it any other way. If he were to near major league ready after a short stint in the minors he would have to show he can do a lot more than he has at that level. I would really hope that he can do that. Putting a player of potential in a situation to most likely result in failure is not the best thing to do. See the mlb career of Aaron Hicks. Twins Fan From Afar can more accurately portay the needs of the Rock Cats, but I would think it would be easier to pick up what he needs to do defensively easier in the outfield than the timing at 2b.

[LaBombo]

There comes a point that going back to the minors does not help.

Sure. Almost any downward move in the system generally loses its developmental value after a player has dominated the next lower level. That's pretty much a given.

 

But Cola and Parms both OPS'ed over 1.000 in their initial stints in AAA. Hicks OPS'ed in the mid-.600's . Even given the position difference, that's not just comparing apples to oranges, that's comparing apples to hand grenades.

 

And then there is the 'oh, by the way' factor of his learning to hit same side pitching for the first time since grade school.

 

If you don't have a stronger case that simultaneously promoting Hicks to the level above the last one he enjoyed across-the-board success at and having him working on a new way of hitting will actually hurt his development, then it comes down to why else he should be here.

 

And if that reason is to give the Twins the best chance to win games, my next questions are 'how many?' and 'to what end?'

[TheLeviathan]

The thing that really baffles me is this defense of "let him figure it out in the majors!" completely flies in the face of what the acting GM and manager have said is best for him! Even the leadership directly working with him think it's the best thing.

 

I'm not sure why this is anything other than universally accepted.

[LaBombo]

And the plot thickens in Florida.

 

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?gid=2014_05_29_ftmafa_clrafa_1&t=g_box&sid=milb

 

Wait, wait, know this one...

 

90% off Daniel Child jerseys in the gift shop?

 

10% markup on Ramon Oviedo jerseys after he got three scoreless outs despite issuing FIVE walks?

 

Pitching or bullpen coach opening in Clearwater? Does Andy have a twitter account?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Santana as a CF leaves me empty. This is the second "throw home" that has missed the plate and allowed a runner on third to score.

 

The arguements about hitting in AAA ignore the obvious logic: if it's easier to hit "down there" then Hicks is going to be prepared to hit for the Twins--but if hitting in AAA truly is relevant preparation, then Hicks should play for the Twins and prove himself at the major league level. Watching Gardenhire run "open mike" CF auditions is exasperating--especially when the plan is to play Buxton in CF.

 

Santana as a CF should leave everyone empty! Colabello in right. Escobar in left. It's not fair to Santana, to his teammates, or to the fans.

 

Jokin, as Hicks pinch ran in the game today, it is fair to assume that nobody was "forced" to play another infielder in the outfield today, that it was manager's decision. Am I mistaken?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The thing that really baffles me is this defense of "let him figure it out in the majors!" completely flies in the face of what the acting GM and manager have said is best for him! Even the leadership directly working with him think it's the best thing.

 

I'm not sure why this is anything other than universally accepted.

 

At least you have gone on record saying who you think should play center in lieu of Hicks, and you said Parmelee.

[jokin]

Rosario was an average hitter in his half season at New Britain. I would be nore than amused at how you could spin it any other way. If he were to near major league ready after a short stint in the minors he would have to show he can do a lot more than he has at that level. I would really hope that he can do that. Putting a player of potential in a situation to most likely result in failure is not the best thing to do. See the mlb career of Aaron Hicks. Twins Fan From Afar can more accurately portay the needs of the Rock Cats, but I would think it would be easier to pick up what he needs to do defensively easier in the outfield than the timing at 2b.

 

Your post is full of analytic flaws and largely missing the point of the bigger picture. Rosario has already accomplished much more at this level than you care to give him credit for. Where to start? And I promise to be spin-free. And do you actually read the posts before responding? You and I are on the same page, my basic thrust is to point out that, because out of overriding necessity and urgency, Rosario's potentially fastest path to the majors may very well be to forestall the 2nd base experiment and see if he can go back to his natural position and be a possible alternative in CF, possibly beginning as soon as April 1, 2015. This is about avoiding the more likely possibility of failure at 2nd and seeing if he can dust off the rust from his layoff to determine how close he might be to hacking it at the plate while holding down the CF spot for the next year or so, at the least.

 

Meanwhile back to the facts. In scanning the 2013 Eastern League results, Rosario is the only player 21 years of age, unless you go well down the list of Eastern Leaguers, who mostly all are far below his averages. The league age average is 24.5 , BTW.

 

"Rosario was an average hitter in New Britain." Well, no, unless you say that among players with, and more than, Rosario's 40th ranking place (among some 90 players w/ over 313+ PAs) with respect to OPS and wOBA are considered "average."

 

How about the true 2013 EL "average hitter"?

 

Eastern League 2013 average OPS .713

Eddie Rosario 2013 AA average OPS .742

 

And even that is an entirely inaccurate assessment of Rosario's hitting accomplishments, as he needs to be compared with his 2nd base peer group (tied for 5th place among 16 2nd basemen with 300+ PAs, and all 4 ahead of him are 1-3 years older).

 

The Eastern League averages for 2nd Basemen in the EL (300+ PA): OPS .701 wOBA .322

Rosario's averages from the EL in 2013 (repeated yet again): OPS .742 wOBA .355

 

Obviously, these numbers would compare just as favorably to the CF peer group, as well, and Rosario would be expected to have the potential to better those numbers if he can dust off the rust.

[The Wise One]

Rosario's age is pointless in a descusion of what kind of player he can be. Age only becomes an issue when figuring out the decline phase. That a player is younger than league aveerage means the player has some talent.

So he can hit above average for a AA player playing 2B for 300+ AB. That means squat. Doess an OPS of .742 in AA say jump 2 levels he is way too talented for this league to you? That is what you advocate. Attack on analytic flaws? ________________________

[jokin]

Santana as a CF should leave everyone empty! Colabello in right. Escobar in left. It's not fair to Santana, to his teammates, or to the fans.

 

Jokin, as Hicks pinch ran in the game today, it is fair to assume that nobody was "forced" to play another infielder in the outfield today, that it was manager's decision. Am I mistaken?

 

That is an interesting question. I get the sense that the club is pretty exasperated with Hicks, especially when words like "drama" are now being used next to Hicks' name. Getting bombshell unilateral ultimatums from guys putting out less than fringe Major league performances will make managers unload a little frustration on a reporter.

 

Regarding Santana, I would have to think that the Pitchers and their agents have expressed their displeasure with this OF circus. When the organization should be putting virtually all of its off-field focus on the upcoming draft, they have completely temporarily derailed Santana's challenge to the SS position, forstalling answers to the Twins most important unanswered question mark among postion players......and through a dilemma largely of their own making, they have themselves scrambling night and day just to keep the CF tourniquets secure.

[jokin]

Doess an OPS of .742 in AA say jump 2 levels he is way too talented for this league to you? That is what you advocate. Attack on analytic flaws? ________________________

 

Yes. And actually, he has demonstrated that he hit well above league average. Can't you just admit you were entirely wrong in your previous post on the details of your assessment?

 

I'm not advocating anything. I'm merely noting what the Twins have done today with Rosario's reinstatement and that what he accomplished last year with his .742 OPS is simply the jumping off point for the Twins, to see if he can logically progress from there, in a truncated season of 2014, to a point where he can earn a look-see in September..... at a position at the major league level that is in complete chaos and crisis mode... and no ready answer going into 2015. Is it forcing the issue? Yes. But desperate times require desperate measure. This would be one option for possibly addressing their desperation.