Twins Option Florimon, Herrmann

[Hawkeye12]

If Arcia isn't ready to go, then put Willingham on the 60-day DL. Add Parms to the 40 man and bring him up for whichever pitcher they want to send down, probably Tonkin would be their choice. He's better at first or right than Colabello, and gives him a month to get another look. If he fails again, you DFA him and it's no big deal.

[LaBombo]

Even if I were a devout atheist, and also a front office employee, I would still get down on my knees and thank my sweet Lord Jesus that the NFL draft starts tonight. That and the Wild clinging to life in the playoffs should blunt the savaging that they are due from the local sports media.

[Guest USAFChief]

Even if I were a devout atheist, and also a front office employee, I would still get down on my knees and thank my sweet Lord Jesus that the NFL draft starts tonight. That and the Wild clinging to life in the playoffs should blunt the savaging that they are due from the local sports media.

Sadly, I think the local media put the Twins on page two weeks ago. And that's not a good thing.

[LaBombo]

Sadly, I think the local media put the Twins on page two weeks ago. And that's not a good thing.

Yeah. Doesn't bode well for either the Twins or the media. By the end of tomorrow their output will tell us more about them than we know now about the front office by a factor of somewhere between two and half of infinity.

 

And by 'their', I meant media, not Twins. I think.

[cmathewson]

Anyone wish to revisit their vigorous defense of not signing a SS this past winter?

 

Sure. After watching Santana the last couple of games, I think it's time to give him a shot and start developing him into the shortstop of the future. That's why they didn't sign Drew.

[stringer bell]

I defended Florimon coming into the season. I was wrong. He just can't hit. Last year's performance gave me some hope that he would get enough extra base hits to make up for a low OBP and high strikeouts. Florimon has soft hands, a great arm, very good range, and can reach the fence (LH), but he can't hit. Really, sending him to Rochester is fine as long as he isn't taking reps from Santana, but I can't see him ever coming back to be the regular SS.

 

While Herrmann had a nice spring, he's never shown he could hit enough to be a big leaguer. Versatility goes only so far. He'll get more days in the big leagues, I think. However I don't know if it will be with the Twins.

[cmathewson]

I defended Florimon coming into the season. I was wrong. He just can't hit. Last year's performance gave me some hope that he would get enough extra base hits to make up for a low OBP and high strikeouts. Florimon has soft hands, a great arm, very good range, and can reach the fence (LH), but he can't hit. Really, sending him to Rochester is fine as long as he isn't taking reps from Santana, but I can't see him ever coming back to be the regular SS.

 

While Herrmann had a nice spring, he's never shown he could hit enough to be a big leaguer. Versatility goes only so far. He'll get more days in the big leagues, I think. However I don't know if it will be with the Twins.

 

I thought he was due for regression from last year--something like a .550 OPS, which is below what he would need to do to keep Santana down in AAA. But I didn't think he would regress this far, this fast. On the other hand, he's the kind of guy who has to do a lot of work to be able to hit at all. When he wasn't able to do the work in spring training, it kind of doomed him to a horrible start. I thought they should have started with him on the DL to put in that work in extended spring, but they didn't, so he really wasn't ready to start the season. He was just showing signs of life, such as they were, but it was too little, too late. I haven't totally given up on him, but I'd be surprised if he makes it back with this club.

[jokin]

I defended Florimon coming into the season. I was wrong. He just can't hit. Last year's performance gave me some hope that he would get enough extra base hits to make up for a low OBP and high strikeouts. Florimon has soft hands, a great arm, very good range, and can reach the fence (LH), but he can't hit. Really, sending him to Rochester is fine as long as he isn't taking reps from Santana, but I can't see him ever coming back to be the regular SS.

.

 

I harken back to Gardy's complete and fully public mis-assessment of Florimon in Spring Training ("He's my Starting SS!"), in the face of appendectomy surgery, no less. I would have thought that every single person in Twins Territory knew his bat was marginal even under the best circumstances, the surgery really gave him no chance to succeed- it seems like someone in the know should have anticipated that outcome a little better and DLd him from the outset when it was fairly obvious that he wasn't swinging a big league bat (as a few of us on TD recommended- as Chiristy just posted). His chance for a return to being the regular SS, barring a catastrophic series of injuries, is probably less than 1 in 3, but he really should be working on becoming a utility infielder, where he could still be valuable.

[Guest USAFChief]

Sure. After watching Santana the last couple of games, I think it's time to give him a shot and start developing him into the shortstop of the future. That's why they didn't sign Drew.

I'll be surprised if everyone is still on the Santana bandwagon a month from now.

 

But I've been wrong before, hope to be again in this case.

[jokin]

I'll be surprised if everyone is still on the Santana bandwagon a month from now.

 

But I've been wrong before, hope to be again in this case.

 

If Nunez really is 100%, I don't think Santana will have a chance for anyone to jump off his bandwagon. Judging from today, there are holes in his game that need refinements, he still has a ways to go to just simply be handed the job. When the roster finally returns to normal, I would surmise that the Eduardos will share the SS job until they show they can't hack it.

[cmathewson]

If Nunez really is 100%, I don't think Santana will have a chance for anyone to jump off his bandwagon. Judging from today, there are holes in his game that need refinements, he still has a ways to go to just simply be handed the job. When the roster finally returns to normal, I would surmise that the Eduardos will share the SS job until they show they can't hack it.

 

Gardy might try him. But one game with Gibson on the mound and seven hits through the left side of the infield and he'll be back where he belongs, in a utility role.

[jokin]

Gardy might try him. But one game with Gibson on the mound and seven hits through the left side of the infield and he'll be back where he belongs, in a utility role.

 

Gardy isn't exactly on Santana's bandwagon yet, accurately pointed out his costly SS shortcomings in the postgame presser- prolly comes down to picking yer' poison.

[Mike Sixel]

Glad they moved these two off the team. Would love Santana to just get the year now, to see what he is. That's what a rebuilding team does.....give YOUNG guys a chance.

[jokin]

Glad they moved these two off the team. Would love Santana to just get the year now, to see what he is. That's what a rebuilding team does.....give YOUNG guys a chance.

 

Yeah, it felt more like 2 mercy killings than anything. P-Flo would have been gone at least a week ago if not for Nunez's injury. In addition to Santana getting a chance, I wouldn't have minded seeing Vargas filling the breach in the bat department, he had 2 more hits tonight and he's been on fire since April 21.

[cmathewson]

Gardy isn't exactly on Santana's bandwagon yet, accurately pointed out his costly SS shortcomings in the postgame presser- prolly comes down to picking yer' poison.

 

Using the media for coaching of young kids--one of the least endearing traits of this manager. The kid makes three great plays and hits the ball hard a few times in one game, and Gardy focuses on a low feed to second on a successful DP, or some such nonesense.

 

Another unflatering side to this manager: how volatile his opinions are. Want a different opinion from Gardy? Wait 24 hours. Last week he said Escobar would start at short for a while. How long did that last? Two games. As soon as it was convenient, he put Esco at third and Florimon at short. Esco did great in those two games, but he couldn't wait to get Florimon back out there.

 

Whatever they do with Santana, you don't let a 23 year old with his tools sit. If he's not starting up here, send him down to start in Rochester. Don't bring him up to sit on the bench. I for one think he's the most talented shortstop in the organization. It'll take time for him to develop, but the sooner they start, the sooner they'll have something.

 

And Chief, I don't doubt the general public will complain about him. That's nothing new. They have unrealistic expectations.

[jokin]

Using the media for coaching of young kids--one of the least endearing traits of this manager. The kid makes three great plays and hits the ball hard a few times in one game, and Gardy focuses on a low feed to second on a successful DP, or some such nonesense.

 

Another unflatering side to this manager: how volatile his opinions are. Want a different opinion from Gardy? Wait 24 hours. Last week he said Escobar would start at short for a while. How long did that last? Two games. As soon as it was convenient, he put Esco at third and Florimon at short. Esco did great in those two games, but he couldn't wait to get Florimon back out there.

 

Whatever they do with Santana, you don't let a 23 year old with his tools sit. If he's not starting up here, send him down to start in Rochester. Don't bring him up to sit on the bench. I for one think he's the most talented shortstop in the organization. It'll take time for him to develop, but the sooner they start, the sooner they'll have something.

 

And Chief, I don't doubt the general public will complain about him. That's nothing new. They have unrealistic expectations.

 

Santana's problems were more than a stray nonsensical miscue- Gardy accurately commented less on the specifics (which were obvious to a trained eye) and more on how he must adjust to the speed of the game at this level. These are things that can be remedied in time, but, you're absolutely right, he has to play to address them. And he shouldn't be shagging fly balls in the OF or sitting on the bench days on end, as Gardy had him doing when he first was called up. He needs to be playing every day, at SS, building up the reps and the muscle memory- and developing a more discriminating eye at the plate- he has the tools to be the perfect leadoff hitter if he can just get on base at a little higher rate.

[LaBombo]

I'll be surprised if everyone is still on the Santana bandwagon a month from now.

 

But I've been wrong before, hope to be again in this case.

 

Sounds exactly what I would say about this. Sorry.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Sounds exactly what I would say about this. Sorry.

You are right. He's not ready to be up, but he was moved out of necessity. Since he's up, and hasn't failed yet. He's a valuable prospect and needs to play, and I would like to see him play every day at MLB SS until he falters, then give him the laundry list things to work on in AAA. Hopefully when he goes down to AAA, he's hungry to come back to the bigs and forces the issue quickly.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Santana's problems were more than a stray nonsensical miscue- Gardy accurately commented less on the specifics (which were obvious to a trained eye) and more on how he must adjust to the speed of the game at this level. These are things that can be remedied in time, but, you're absolutely right, he has to play to address them. And he shouldn't be shagging fly balls in the OF or sitting on the bench days on end, as Gardy had him doing when he first was called up. He needs to be playing every day, at SS, building up the reps and the muscle memory- and developing a more discriminating eye at the plate- he has the tools to be the perfect leadoff hitter if he can just get on base at a little higher rate.

My concern is more addressing the rookies issues with the media. A business manager is trained to Praise in Public, Punish in Private. This doesn't really work for the established pros, but a necessity for the rookies. The rookies have bigger things to work on than dealing with the media.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Gardy might try him. But one game with Gibson on the mound and seven hits through the left side of the infield and he'll be back where he belongs, in a utility role.

I'm with Jokin, I think Escobar has supplanted Florimon and Nunez, if healthy, has taken over utility and PH.

[Riverbrian]

Run with Escobar while he is hot. Be prepared for a cool down but run with Escobar while he is hot.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Run with Escobar while he is hot. Be prepared for a cool down but run with Escobar while he is hot.

 

He can't be worse than Florimon.

 

As much consternation as there has been over centerfield, I don't understand why people haven't been more critical of shortstop, which was the glaring flaw of the roster going into the season in my opinion.

 

The Opening Day shortstop had an OPS+ of 0 over 74 PAs. By comparison, Aaron Hicks looks like Barry Bonds next to that guy.

[DJL44]

I'd say Santana has the tools to be a good #9 hitter. He's never going to have a .400 OBP but he could produce just enough with the bat and have some speed. I agree he belongs in AAA and Escobar needs to be the starting SS. Nunez grades out worse at SS than Dozier or Plouffe.

[Mike Sixel]

He can't be worse than Florimon.

 

As much consternation as there has been over centerfield, I don't understand why people haven't been more critical of shortstop, which was the glaring flaw of the roster going into the season in my opinion.

 

The Opening Day shortstop had an OPS+ of 0 over 74 PAs. By comparison, Aaron Hicks looks like Barry Bonds next to that guy.

 

 

Well, in fairness to people not being all over SS....we had many threads on Drew as you may recall.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Well, in fairness to people not being all over SS....we had many threads on Drew as you may recall.

 

Sure, through the offseason... But as we neared and passed Opening Day, nearly all the focus went to center while Florimon was posting an OPS+ that made Drew Butera look like an All-Star.

 

At least in center, they were rolling the dice on a promising young player. At short, the writing was on the wall that we were looking at another Juan Castro situation.

[jokin]

He can't be worse than Florimon.

 

As much consternation as there has been over centerfield, I don't understand why people haven't been more critical of shortstop, which was the glaring flaw of the roster going into the season in my opinion.

 

The Opening Day shortstop had an OPS+ of 0 over 74 PAs. By comparison, Aaron Hicks looks like Barry Bonds next to that guy.

 

Ohh...we've been out here...and our numbers were growing by legion by the day...even Riverbrian jumped off the P-"Flawed" bandwagon- I think even the holdouts finally computed the math and could no longer justify the tradeoff at the plate. Even the stubborn Twins management recognized their mistaken ST assessment of Florimon and was pretty proactive on this front, going after Nunez early on.

[Riverbrian]

He can't be worse than Florimon.

 

As much consternation as there has been over centerfield, I don't understand why people haven't been more critical of shortstop, which was the glaring flaw of the roster going into the season in my opinion.

 

The Opening Day shortstop had an OPS+ of 0 over 74 PAs. By comparison, Aaron Hicks looks like Barry Bonds next to that guy.

 

I like defense and I probably over value it but I've seen what the lack of it does.

 

At the very least... be able to do one or the other...

 

Hicks hasn't impressed me defensively thus far... I think he will but he hasn't yet. Same thing for Presley... Same thing for Mastro. Fuld can at least go get it... He has impressed me.

 

Florimon has impressed me with his glove at SS and that's why I feel the way I do.

 

I can defend Florimon when he hits .220 with 9 dingers. I can't and won't defend him at .1 oh whatever with two extra base hits.

 

He's hit 3 balls hard all year... He's messed up... I'm off the bandwagon.

 

Escobar is rolling right now... Let him run until he tires.

[ashbury]

You are right. He's not ready to be up, but he was moved out of necessity. Since he's up, and hasn't failed yet. He's a valuable prospect and needs to play, and I would like to see him play every day at MLB SS until he falters, then give him the laundry list things to work on in AAA. Hopefully when he goes down to AAA, he's hungry to come back to the bigs and forces the issue quickly.

My concern is more addressing the rookies issues with the media. A business manager is trained to Praise in Public, Punish in Private. This doesn't really work for the established pros, but a necessity for the rookies. The rookies have bigger things to work on than dealing with the media.

 

Came here to say both of these, find I don't need to. Santana won't be 24 until after the season ends, his batting resume in the minors is better than Florimon's at every step, he's not ready and should not be sniped at by his boss, but if he's up he should be playing.

 

Run with Escobar while he is hot. Be prepared for a cool down but run with Escobar while he is hot.

 

Not with DSantana on the roster.

 

I like Escobar a lot, but as a utility guy. Right now he's batting over his head, but even apart from that I worry he will wear down with everyday use. If not for Santana, I'd say sure, let's find out about that worry, maybe I'm wrong. But, it seems like there is fan pressure to move guys out of roles they are succeeding at into more demanding roles (Dozier to SS?), and instead I'd like to see the guys prove themselves in roles they'll fill on the good teams we believe are on the way. Utility Infielder isn't exactly a difficult slot to fill, but still it seems like we've got a good one right now and can take satisfaction in it, rather than push him to be a mediocre starter.

[cmathewson]

Playing the hot hand makes sense if you're a pennant contender. The way they're managing the roster, this team will be lucky to escape the cellar of the ALC. Play the kid. Help him learn. Coach him. Praise him publicly. Correct him privately. If you do it right, you'll have a decent starting shortstop in 2015. My hope is that Molitor takes him under his wing. Someone has to coach the kids.

[Guest USAFChief]

I absolutely agree Santana should get the bulk of the SS playing time while he's here.