Article: Twins Acquire Infielder Eduardo Nunez From Yankees

[jokin]

Maybe a possibility. But Terry Ryan does not seem likely to move a pitching prospect for utility infield depth. MS had a sub 3.00 era and was by any count the 5th to 7th best pitching prospect in our system.

 

Highly unlikely that he would do that. I'm guessing he's kicking himself for not making the exact same deal with KC for Emilio Bonifacio, though

[Hugh Morris]

I'm not saying I expect Santana to start (or that I expect him to stay down)-I just think you're linking two unrelated things. Nunez' bat and theoretical ability to play the INF has value on a major league roster, regardless of who is starting.

 

I guess I'm not seeing the compelling evidence that this means you can't swap Florimon and Santana the same way you'd have been able to without Nunez' presence, or why the Twins would have made this move now rather than anytime in the month prior or month after.

 

That's fine though, we can agree to disagree . I was just wondering why you were so certain that this meant something with Santana.

[Shane Wahl]

James Beresford > Eduardo Nunez

 

That is a legit possibility. I guess it is very likely that Nunez is a slightly better tradeable asset than Sulbaran. That makes the deal, on its own, a good one.

[SouthDakotaFarmer]

Here's a wild thought. Let's see if our pitchers can hit over the Mendoza and have Nunez (or ANYBODY else DH for Flory) Okay, I'm obviously kidding.

 

Going to my first game since last year at this time. (as a farmer it's hard to drive 6 hours over here...field timing). I'll be the handsome 30 yr old A's, yes the A's are my 2nd favorite team / Twins fan 3 rows above the front of the A's dugout. I'll will most likely be loud and wildly cheering both teams simultaneously. I hope it's a 9-8 9th inning finish. Don't care who wins.

 

PROMOTE DANNY SANTANA, please!

[Reider]

Vielma's glove is already better than Florimon's. I kid you not.

Says the guy who thinks Escobar is better defensively than Florimon.

[Thrylos]

Says the guy who thinks Escobar is better defensively than Florimon.

 

Never said that. Matter of fact this is what I said about them defensively (from here)

 

Noted that Escobar's defense at SS is close to Florimon's as far as UZR/150 and RZR are concerned, but he is making fewer errors than Florimon.

 

and talking about Escobar's best position (and that was before he got the SS Gold Glove in Venezuela; just ignore the Dozier bit for the sake of this argument) :

 

Both Dozier and Escobar do not make many errors. UZR/150 does not like Dozier and Escobar in 2B and 3B, but likes Escobar at SS. Revized Zone Rating has Dozier near the MLB top at second base and Escobar above average at both 2B and SS (but not that great at 3B).

 

Which basically is reciting facts. Did not say "Better" or "Worse", just compared facts as far as these 2 guys go. And my argument is that Escobar will be a better overall SS for the Twins than Florimon, because they are close on defense and Escobar is better with the bat already and has better potential.

[Guest USAFChief]

"Lots of defensive metrics out there and some contradict each other."

 

I read that somewhere.

[cmathewson]

Never said that. Matter of fact this is what I said about them defensively (from here)

 

 

 

and talking about Escobar's best position (and that was before he got the SS Gold Glove in Venezuela; just ignore the Dozier bit for the sake of this argument) :

 

 

 

Which basically is reciting facts. Did not say "Better" or "Worse", just compared facts as far as these 2 guys go. And my argument is that Escobar will be a better overall SS for the Twins than Florimon, because they are close on defense and Escobar is better with the bat already and has better potential.

 

Fair enough, but you can't pretend that the facts you cite don't carry some judgement. You could have cited the fact that Florimon lead the majors in chances and putouts last year. But you chose not to. Of course Escobar makes fewer errors when he has an order of magnitude fewer chances. You could have cited that he ranks in the top 5 among shortstops in many range metrics. Because these metrics are rate stats and not counting stats, presumably Escobar would be up there as well if he is better. He isn't even in the top 30.

[cmathewson]

The quotes coming from the Twins seem to indicate they view him as a potential replacement for Florimon, rather than as a utility guy. Whether that works is doubtful but I dont think they got him with utility guy in mind.

 

How much of that is managing through the media? Everyone smiled when he got a hit immediately after the trade was announced. Some think the trade's main objective is to light a fire under Florimon. I don't know if it's true, but it won't be the first time the Twins managed through the media.

[Guest USAFChief]

How much of that is managing through the media? Everyone smiled when he got a hit immediately after the trade was announced. Some think the trade's main objective is to light a fire under Florimon. I don't know if it's true, but it won't be the first time the Twins managed through the media.

I don't know.

 

But I'm skeptical that "hey, look, get more hits or you'll lose your job" can actually result in more hits.

[cmathewson]

I don't know.

 

But I'm skeptical that "hey, look, get more hits or you'll lose your job" can actually result in more hits.

 

I agree. If they're doing it, it is not likely to be successful. But it sure seems like they are doing it. Berardino had an interview with Florimon before camp and the kid said they told him he had to earn a job and it would be a three-way competition, etc. This despite the fact that he had clearly beat out Escobar and Santana is raw to say the least. Now they acquire a guy who is not even as good as Escobar and pretend as though he's a candidate to take Florimon's job.

[Guest USAFChief]

I agree. If they're doing it, it is not likely to be successful. But it sure seems like they are doing it. Berardino had an interview with Florimon before camp and the kid said they told him he had to earn a job and it would be a three-way competition, etc. This despite the fact that he had clearly beat out Escobar and Santana is raw to say the least. Now they acquire a guy who is not even as good as Escobar and pretend as though he's a candidate to take Florimon's job.

I think the most likely explanation is they realize Florimon is never going to hit enough to be an asset and instead of taking actual steps to fix the problem, they are throwing cheap possibilities (including bringing in Bartlett) against the wall hoping something sticks. I also think its obvious they don't view Escobar as an everyday SS, an opinion I share.

 

My bet is Nunez is the Twins starting SS before May 1st, but his tenure will be short lived as well.

[Dbohnk]

This going to sound like I am beating a dead horse but I really hope the Twins are just waiting till after the draft to sign Drew because none of the candidates including Santana inspire confidence in me that we have a future big league ss that will be ready soon.

[Mike Sixel]

Why would Drew sign here after the draft, and not where he can win and make as much money? Not. Gonna. Happen.

[Willihammer]

Why would Drew sign here after the draft, and not where he can win and make as much money? Not. Gonna. Happen.

 

I read an interview with Joe Maddon somewhere and he outlined 5 phases a player goes through after reaching the Show, and it roughly goes like this

 

1. I got called up!

2. This is hard!

3. I'm doing ok!

4. I can get rich!

5. I want a ring before I retire.

 

Drew turned 31 last month. I think, if Maddon's outline is accurate, Drew is still in phase 4.

 

Besides all that, June 5 isn't far away. If the Twins make the best offer, and can keep there head above water until then, winning might not be such a concern anyway.

[Major League Ready]

Why would Drew sign here after the draft, and not where he can win and make as much money? Not. Gonna. Happen.

 

Is this not the case for the Twins (at least presently) with most FAs? Boras realizes he is not going to get the terms he wants as long as there is draft pick attached. Therefore, he is going to wait it out. The market will be determined for Drew in June. An injury on the right team is still a good bet to improve Drew's marketability.

[tobi0040]

I agree. If they're doing it, it is not likely to be successful. But it sure seems like they are doing it. Berardino had an interview with Florimon before camp and the kid said they told him he had to earn a job and it would be a three-way competition, etc. This despite the fact that he had clearly beat out Escobar and Santana is raw to say the least. Now they acquire a guy who is not even as good as Escobar and pretend as though he's a candidate to take Florimon's job.

 

Pushing Florimon has to be the objective. No way our scouts looked at Nunez and thought Gardy would put up with his defense.

 

If you take a step back, this is really a silly, very short-sighted move. First, trading for Nunez is not going to make Pedro an MLB quality hitter. Nothing will. Second, in a year in which we are not going to compete, trading your 5th or 6th best pitching prospect for a guy that you think has a snowballs chance at pushing a below average SS....is just foolish.

 

I get that we may have doubts about MS, but his ERA was a full run lower than Berrios last year. Is it crazy to think that he may not pan out as a 5th starter or reliever at some point? I have also heard the logic here that well we got him for Drew so who cares.....just because we fleeced the Dodgers doesn't mean we should turn around and give the guy away.

[jokin]

Pushing Florimon has to be the objective. No way our scouts looked at Nunez and thought Gardy would put up with his defense.

 

If you take a step back, this is really a silly, very short-sighted move. First, trading for Nunez is not going to make Pedro an MLB quality hitter. Nothing will. Second, in a year in which we are not going to compete, trading your 5th or 6th best pitching prospect for a guy that you think has a snowballs chance at pushing a below average SS....is just foolish.

 

I get that we may have doubts about MS, but his ERA was a full run lower than Berrios last year. Is it crazy to think that he may not pan out as a 5th starter or reliever at some point? I have also heard the logic here that well we got him for Drew so who cares.....just because we fleeced the Dodgers doesn't mean we should turn around and give the guy away.

 

I agree with the general thrust of your post, but a couple thoughts:

 

It has been widely reported that the Twins scouts have been following Nunez and acquiring about his availability for years running.

 

I think you're overrating Sulbaran as the Twins 5th or 6th best pitching prospect. I can rattle off 5-7 pitchers just in AAA and AA that have a much better chance at being effective front end/back end starters and/or relievers than Sulbaran. And then there's another handful below that level, Berrios, Stewart, Gonsalves, Thorpe and more, that project better than MS. He's very tiny in stature, which doesn't portend starting is in his future and to compound this, he really hurt his chances by showing up to camp overweight. The Twins got this one right in selling him at his likely highest speculative value, in exchange for a 4 year major league SS. Given the opportunity, Nunez can resuscitate his career, giving the Twins yet another chance to trade up from the originial Butera trade.

[tobi0040]

I agree with the general thrust of your post, but a couple thoughts:

 

It has been widely reported that the Twins scouts have been following Nunez and acquiring about his availability for years running.

 

I think you're overrating Sulbaran as the Twins 5th or 6th best pitching prospect. I can rattle off 5-7 pitchers just in AAA and AA that have a much better chance at being effective front end/back end starters and/or relievers than Sulbaran. And then there's another handful below that level, Berrios, Stewart, Gonsalves, Thorpe and more, that project better than MS. He's very tiny in stature, which doesn't portend starting is in his future and to compound this, he really hurt his chances by showing up to camp overweight. The Twins got this one right in selling him at his likely highest speculative value, in exchange for a 4 year major league SS. Given the opportunity, Nunez can resuscitate his career, giving the Twins yet another chance to trade up from the originial Butera trade.

 

MLB had him at 14 overall and our 7th best pitcher.

 

Either way, I think the Twins need to stop tinkering with this position and sign or trade for an actual answer here. It is unlikely that the answer is in our system, in my opinion.

 

I am not saying that I would not want to see Santana given a ton of reps and I am one that would put up with a few more errors or few extra balls getting through in exchange for a guy that will get 30-40 more hits with additional extra base hits (Santana). But I don't see the Twins putting up with any inconsistency defensively at this position.

[Linus]

This whole thing is starting to give me a headache. Having said that I don't even know what I would do if I was the GM. Here are a few things that I do know: I don't trade any decent pitching prospect for org. depth. If you want to make this trade, fine but call Nunez up and put him at short and let him sink or swim. I don't buy the argument that his poor defense means the Twins won't play him at short - they sold out long ago to mediocre fielders and now have a whole team of them.

 

No way Santana's playing time in AAA should be effected as he is our last prayer for a real long term answer at short. My first move would be to have given E. Escobar a month starting at short just to see what would happen - its maybe a long shot but perhaps our answer is in the dugout sitting on the bench. I've been against signing Drew this whole time but if they are this desperate, time to re-think. Hell, for all we know, they've tried to sign Drew and he is not interested at any price.

[jokin]

MLB had him at 14 overall and our 7th best pitcher.

 

Either way, I think the Twins need to stop tinkering with this position and sign or trade for an actual answer here. It is unlikely that the answer is in our system, in my opinion.

 

I am not saying that I would not want to see Santana given a ton of reps and I am one that would put up with a few more errors or few extra balls getting through in exchange for a guy that will get 30-40 more hits with additional extra base hits (Santana). But I don't see the Twins putting up with any inconsistency defensively at this position.

 

What? MLB has 10 pitchers in the Twins top 20 and don't include Tonkin, the Jones's or Kris Johnson, all of whom were more likely to contribute more to the major league club than Sulbaran would have. I never saw Sulbaran ever listed on the mlb.com list, if that's the one you're referring to. He was never on the Dodger list, it seems unlikely that he would have been that high on the better-prospect-Twins-list.

 

I agree with your conclusion on the SS situation. It's been a blind spot with the club in terms of building depth, recognizing value and talent and developing MLB-caliber quality for the entire 21st Century, I still remember asking a friend about the details after the announcement of the Delmon for Garza trade.....

 

Me- "What else did we get?".....

Friend- "Brendan Harris and Jason Pridie"....

Me- "What?!? All we got was MI depth? We got robbed!"......

Friend- "You don't want to know the rest of the trade....."

 

 

Regarding the defense vs. offense debate, Gardy had publicly admitted that the hitting from every position is now the new priority.

 

Regarding Santana, if they do put Nunez at SS in Roc., there's no reason that Santana can't get his reps in NB. Both players can use all the reps they can get.

[tobi0040]

What? MLB has 10 pitchers in the Twins top 20 and don't include Tonkin, the Jones's or Kris Johnson, all of whom were more likely to contribute more to the major league club than Sulbaran would have. I never saw Sulbaran ever listed on the mlb.com list, if that's the one you're referring to. He was never on the Dodger list, it seems unlikely that he would have been that high on the better-prospect-Twins-list.

 

I agree with your conclusion on the SS situation. It's been a blind spot with the club in terms of building depth, recognizing value and talent and developing MLB-caliber quality for the entire 21st Century, I still remember asking a friend about the details after the announcement of the Delmon for Garza trade.....

 

Me- "What else did we get?".....

Friend- "Brendan Harris and Jason Pridie"....

Me- "What?!? All we got was MI depth? We got robbed!"......

Friend- "You don't want to know the rest of the trade....."

 

 

Regarding the defense vs. offense debate, Gardy had publicly admitted that the hitting from every position is now the new priority.

 

Regarding Santana, if they do put Nunez at SS in Roc., there's no reason that Santana can't get his reps in NB. Both players can use all the reps they can get.

 

Go to "20 by team" and pick the Twins. He is 14th overall, 7th pitcher.

 

When the Twins give a kid like Santana a leash like they gave Lexi Casilla , Punto, or Florimon, I will start believing offense out of the short stop is a priority.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2013/

[jokin]

Go to "20 by team" and pick the Twins. He is 14th overall, 7th pitcher.

 

When the Twins give a kid like Santana a leash like they gave Lexi Casilla , Punto, or Florimon, I will start believing offense out of the short stop is a priority.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2013/

 

That was for 2013. Here's 2014, Sulbaran no longer made the cut on the updated version:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2014/

[tobi0040]

That was for 2013. Here's 2014, Sulbaran no longer made the cut on the updated version:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2014/

 

You are right. I find it odd that a 2.96 ERA in his first year would hurt his value. Or that 6+ guys would overtake him.

[PseudoSABR]

I find it odd that a 2.96 ERA in his first year would hurt his value. Or that 6+ guys would overtake him.

You're putting far too much weight on ERA...

[cmathewson]

You are right. I find it odd that a 2.96 ERA in his first year would hurt his value. Or that 6+ guys would overtake him.

 

If you'd seen him in spring training, you might understand. He couldn't sprint from foul pole to foul pole without throwing up. Too much of Momma's cooking in the offseason.

[golfboy1]

Pushing Florimon has to be the objective. No way our scouts looked at Nunez and thought Gardy would put up with his defense.

 

If you take a step back, this is really a silly, very short-sighted move. First, trading for Nunez is not going to make Pedro an MLB quality hitter. Nothing will. Second, in a year in which we are not going to compete, trading your 5th or 6th best pitching prospect for a guy that you think has a snowballs chance at pushing a below average SS....is just foolish.

 

I get that we may have doubts about MS, but his ERA was a full run lower than Berrios last year. Is it crazy to think that he may not pan out as a 5th starter or reliever at some point? I have also heard the logic here that well we got him for Drew so who cares.....just because we fleeced the Dodgers doesn't mean we should turn around and give the guy away.

 

Florimon is a great defensive SS but he is there basically by default.

 

" No way our scouts looked at Nunez and thought Gardy would put up with his defense"

 

Are these the same scout's that thought Nishioki was a ML defensive SS? Actually, I don't know if Nunez is as bad a defensive SS as his reputation. At one point, he was considered Jeter's heir apparent & the Yankees refused to include him in a trade for Cliff Lee.

 

I think it's worth taking a chance on Nunez. Sulbaran's stats are better than his potential (IMHO) & his upside is a LH relief pitcher.

[Reider]

Never said that. Matter of fact this is what I said about them defensively (from here)

No. It was in a previous thread. You said that Escobar was a better hitter than Florimon, then said that Escobar's glove is just as good, then in brackets you said (probably better) or something along those lines (I am just paraphrasing). You are right about Escobar's hitting, but Escobar is not as good or better than Florimon defensively.

 

Before the season started you claimed that Gibson was better than Deduno, when Deduno was arguably the Twins best starting pitcher (or 2nd best), while Gibson couldn't even hack it at the MLB level. This year is different. Gibson looks just fine and Deduno is struggling. Your post would have made more sense to me if you said it after Gibson's first start this year, but you didn't.

 

My point is that you may not be wrong about Vielma. I haven't seen the guy play yet. But when you go making claims that Escobar is just as good defensively if not better than Florimon, it completely discredits your eye for talent. In other words, I am going to take your claim that Vielma's defense ("glove") is already better than Florimon's with a large grain of salt until he proves it at the MLB level. But I do hope you are right and I hope Vielma can hit too. We need a guy who can do both.

[Mr. Brooks]

Pushing Florimon has to be the objective. No way our scouts looked at Nunez and thought Gardy would put up with his defense.

 

If you take a step back, this is really a silly, very short-sighted move. First, trading for Nunez is not going to make Pedro an MLB quality hitter. Nothing will. Second, in a year in which we are not going to compete, trading your 5th or 6th best pitching prospect for a guy that you think has a snowballs chance at pushing a below average SS....is just foolish.

 

I get that we may have doubts about MS, but his ERA was a full run lower than Berrios last year. Is it crazy to think that he may not pan out as a 5th starter or reliever at some point? I have also heard the logic here that well we got him for Drew so who cares.....just because we fleeced the Dodgers doesn't mean we should turn around and give the guy away.

 

Are you talking about the same Gardy that I've seen place almost zero emphasis on defense the last 5 years?

[tobi0040]

Are you talking about the same Gardy that I've seen place almost zero emphasis on defense the last 5 years?

 

If we had zero emphasis on defense, escobar or santana would be at short. plain and simple.