Twins 1, Braves 4: Gray Duels Strider but Twins Lose to Hot Braves 

13 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

This is EXACTLY how I feel. I want to see this team remolded into a winner, not to limp backwards into a playoff berth - a playoff berth that would only solidify and vindicate the faulty regime currently in place.

There's no reason the Twins couldn't become the Reds, Orioles, D-backs or Marlins in 2026 or 2027. Rebuild. Restructure. Or keep crawling around the AL Central. To me, the choice is clear.

Why do the Twins Fans have to wait until 26 or 27? Are the Reds, Baltimore, Dbacks or Marlins really that much better than the Twins are today or that much closer to winning a championship this year or next?  I would say the answer is no, we are pissed at where this FO and Manager have put us the last few years,

I mean 2026 is the time they should be trading away Ober, Ryan and Lopez if they still have value before becoming a free agent(same time frame as Berrios) and restocking the farm.

That is how continued success and a pipeline work, IMO the offense isn't that far away and the pitching staff is here. Get Buxton healthy (meaning put him on the DL for a few weeks or sent him to Fort Myers and have the kids throwing live pitching to him so he can figure out how to hit again)  and figure out if any of the younger guys can do more than strike out or hit a homer. I am not talking about Wallner and Larnach. I am talking about Lee, Soularie, Severio, Maybe Rosario, ERod, and Schobel.

They need to inject some life into the offensive, Lewis/Julien seem to have that, maybe having another young guy taking a vets job will do that as well.

12 minutes ago, LeatherAntenna said:

There was that story on this site by Taylor  earlier in June about his 5 worst blown saves.  You could add last nite thought not a blown save, but just change the story title from ‘blown saves’ to games he ‘blew up’ , usually with just a handful of pitches.  He is very efficient in that regard.

I am not here to defend Pagan, if it was up to me he would have been gone last year. But in this case he is a bullpen guy that came in and gave up a homer, it happens, even to the best relief pitchers (Him and Duran have both given up 3, Duran in 2 less innings)

Pagan didn't lose this game, the Twins were already down 2 - 1 when he came in and they didn't score again.

This game was lost the moment Rocco penciled in Kepler in the 3 hole!

2 hours ago, VivaBomboRivera! said:

As much as it is tempting to blame Pagan, the bottom of the 7th would have ended without a run scored if Gray had moved to cover first on Harris' hit into the 3 - 4 hole.  No telling how things might have played out after that.  It was bang-bang, but that defensive reaction needs to be instinctive.

100%  There was time to get that out. Gray never made a move towards 1st. Not 1 mention of it either. 

29 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

OR if Kirilloff would have just caught the ball - 2 hop smash hit by him in the ground earlier, tough play - dropped/missed relay from Solano into the dugout……didn’t hurt BUT it really made me think he’s not a real good first baseman with all 3 of these happening in one game.

He isn't. And now that his hitting has came back down from his monster start its more noticeable. I wonder if he's still getting injections. 

1 minute ago, SwainZag said:

Gray already gave up the go ahead HR to Ozuna anyways.  The play on Harris should have been made by AK or Gray and they should have been out of the inning.  Not to mention that Acuna is the front runner for MVP, it's not like some slouch took Pagan deep.  Sometimes you just get beat by great players.  The Twins got beat by Strider and Acuna.  Sometimes it's okay to not throw blame around and admit you got beat by great guys.  🤷‍♂️

You're right. But a 2-1 game vs a 4-1 game. Not having a crystal ball. Big difference 

1 hour ago, LastOnePicked said:

This is EXACTLY how I feel. I want to see this team remolded into a winner, not to limp backwards into a playoff berth - a playoff berth that would only solidify and vindicate the faulty regime currently in place.

I think that is one thing they're really not good at. It's one thing to come up with a plan but they have to recognize when the plan isn't working and adjust. They're really slow making adjustments. Alex Colome as the closer is just one example.

It's funny that the Twins scored their one run because the Braves threw a fastball in the strikezone to Gallo instead of reading the scouting report that says "only changeups in the zone".

The Twins are at .500.  The question is how far below .500 will they be at the All-Star break with 8 games against Atlanta and Baltimore, and 3 against KC.  Maybe they will surprise me, as they have played well against the best teams.  I am hoping that after the AS break Polanco, Thilbar and J Lopez will be back healthy.  I would put Buxton on the IL now and prepare for the second half.   My guess is that the Twins will go 5-6 over the next 11 games.

4 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Wasn't arguing against the premise, just pointing out they basically just faced the best of the best and it was close game, and in a close games anything can happen (kind of the play in the 7th). Not disagreeing that the bats have to be better and probably the game plan as well. But I will take Ryan, Gray, Ober/Lopez and in a 3 or 5 game series and see what happens.

Hoping you can take 3 out of 5 scoring 1-2 runs a game (meaning your staff has to stand on it's head for multiple games) is not a promising strategy.  The premise is that in the playoffs, the Twins will run into a bunch of pitchers at or near the level of Strider--last night was an indication of what the result might be.

32 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Hoping you can take 3 out of 5 scoring 1-2 runs a game (meaning your staff has to stand on it's head for multiple games) is not a promising strategy.  The premise is that in the playoffs, the Twins will run into a bunch of pitchers at or near the level of Strider--last night was an indication of what the result might be.

But wouldn't that be the same thinking the opponents would have against Ryan, Gray and Ober for example? I mean the Twins have to hit better and have a better offensive plan, but with Stewart, Jax and Duran closing out the game and maybe a couple of others they can add at the deadline, I am not sure how the thinking is they will be getting better the next few years?

6 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

There's a difference between "prefer to make the playoffs than to miss the playoffs," and "happy just making the playoffs."

In a micro sense, yes.  In a macro sense, no.  In a macro sense, I'm sure all of us want the Twins to win a World Series.  Therefore, if the Twins are unlikely to win the World Series in any given year, it is preferable to miss the playoffs in order to accumulate better draft positioning (after all, if the Twins make the playoffs last year, they don't have pick #5 this year).  The only exception is if it's an up-and-coming team like the 2023 Orioles.  This Twins team is not up-and-coming; it seems much closer to down-and-going.

7 hours ago, Squirrel said:

But who replaces Gray and Maeda? Do those replacements get us to the playoffs or make our chances worse? The depth of our rotation is what’s kept us in it. If we sell on some of these guys, particularly if we are still leading the division by the trade deadline, I think we are basically throwing in the towel. So either go for it or don’t. I agree that Ryan, Lopez and Ober would be fine as a rotation in the playoffs, but I do think you need a 4th starter. Varland? Pretty sure I’d rather have Gray with Maeda to the pen. But that’s all moot, if we don’t get there to begin with. I’d rather get to the playoffs and lose than not make the playoffs at all.

It is possible that we go from the 8th or 9th best team in the AL to the 10th or 11th best.  This is an acceptable potential cost of adding talent to the organization in my opinion.  It is also possible that the team continues on the current pace.

Honestly, the most likely outcome of doing nothing at the deadline is being overtaken by the Guardians again anyway.

7 hours ago, SwainZag said:

Gray already gave up the go ahead HR to Ozuna anyways.

Corrected OP to "another run."

9 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

If only we had a FO that could create a pitching pipeline, we wouldn’t need to worry about replacements.  I find it so very Minnesotan to be happy just making the playoffs.  We should all want more than that.

Just making the playoffs is fine—if you’re an up-and-coming team like the Orioles, with young guys everywhere figuring it out.  It’s not fine if you’re a veteran-heavy team massively underachieving; like the Twins.

We’re more than 30 years removed from the last time the Twins were a factor in the postseason, and with the exception of a handful of years since then (early 2000’s, 2019-2020), this team has been completely irrelevant.  
 

Falvine’s job was to create a sustained winner, and while the early returns were promising, those are long gone.  Their team plays in one of the worst divisions of all time, they’ve gotten unprecedented spending power, have repeatedly raided the farm system for arms, and still can’t get the team above .500.  With the exception of Ryan, Odorizzi, and Duran, they have more or less lost every trade they’ve made.  I don’t want the Twins to make the playoffs because I don’t think whatever Falvine is doing is working, and they’re unlikely to be fired if they make the playoffs.

I like the twins because  I grew up following the twins with our hall of famers  ...

I am not proud of the current twins as their style of baseball  is not acceptable  ... 

If we win a division with a 500 record or even a sub 500 record , that would be very embarrassing going to the playoffs  ...

I just don't have that feeling that the twins can win each game , our Starting pitchers have kept us in most games , and most have been winnable  ....

PURE AND SIMPLE  , no killer instinct  ...

3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

If there was a higher correlation between draft picks positioning, or even first round success rates overall, then I'd buy that. But the draft is such a crap shoot that it doesn't actually work that way in reality. The Dodgers, Braves, Rays, etc. never pick high, but they're always good. The Rockies, Pirates, Royals, etc. always pick high, but they're always bad. So I disagree with your macro argument all together. And I'd argue this team should/could be up-and-coming if they'd make different (better?) decisions on their down-and-going players. If the Twins had made the playoffs last year they'd have less of a need for the #5 pick since they'd be a more talented team. Being less talented isn't an automatic way to become more talented. Being more talented is.

Maybe the Dodgers, Braves, and Rays are always good because they’re good at drafting, And would therefore be even better if they had a wider player pool and increased money to spend?  Maybe the Rockies, Pirates, and Royals are always bad because they’re bad at drafting, and would be even worse with a narrower player pool and decreased money? The draft is not straightforward to be sure, but it also isn’t teams throwing darts.

The Twins would not have been a more talented team had they made the playoffs last year—that makes no sense.  The talent level they had was not healthy enough to make the playoffs.  Making the playoffs would mean they do not have a top 5 pick in the best draft in a decade—the organization would have less talent had they made the playoffs last year.

Saying being more talented is an automatic way to become more talented is a semantically null statement.  It’s like saying the best way to get a higher paying job is to get a higher paying job.  For a team that can’t spend to the level of other teams, and therefore must acquire talent through drafting, IFA, and shrewd trades, drafting seems like a fairly important thing to do well at, no?  Especially since it’s the only one of those 3 paths that is not reliant on other entities to occur.

12 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Why do the Twins Fans have to wait until 26 or 27? Are the Reds, Baltimore, Dbacks or Marlins really that much better than the Twins are today or that much closer to winning a championship this year or next?  I would say the answer is no, we are pissed at where this FO and Manager have put us the last few years,

I mean 2026 is the time they should be trading away Ober, Ryan and Lopez if they still have value before becoming a free agent(same time frame as Berrios) and restocking the farm.

That is how continued success and a pipeline work, IMO the offense isn't that far away and the pitching staff is here. Get Buxton healthy (meaning put him on the DL for a few weeks or sent him to Fort Myers and have the kids throwing live pitching to him so he can figure out how to hit again)  and figure out if any of the younger guys can do more than strike out or hit a homer. I am not talking about Wallner and Larnach. I am talking about Lee, Soularie, Severio, Maybe Rosario, ERod, and Schobel.

They need to inject some life into the offensive, Lewis/Julien seem to have that, maybe having another young guy taking a vets job will do that as well.

 

 

CIN, BAL, ARI, and MIA are all leading divisions (other than MIA) that are demonstrably superior to the AL central; Miami is currently the first wild card in the NL.  All of them have multiple players who are better than anyone on the Twins, with impact players still in the minors to further buttress.  If you told me I could swap the entire playing roster at all levels with any of those 4 organizations, I would do so in a heartbeat.

The IL will not help Buxton.  If that was a viable solution, it would have fixed the problem in the off-season.

16 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

If the Twins are unlikely to win the World Series in any given year, it is preferable to miss the playoffs in order to accumulate better draft positioning

The problem with this philosophy is every team is unlikely to win the World Series in any given year. Even the odds-on favorite Braves and Rays have less than a 20% chance to win it all. Therefore, the Twins should always tank to get better draft positioning and never try to win.

Playoff games are 1) fun 2) profitable. They should definitely be trying to make the playoffs this season.