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    Chasing An Ace


    Nick Nelson

    Last week, on Twitter and in the Twins Daily forum, I posed a hypothetical question: If you were the Twins GM, and you had the chance to trade Jose Berrios and Max Kepler for Oakland's Sonny Gray, would you do it?

    The responses varied widely – everywhere from "Yes, in a split-second" to "Not in a million years." But the uncomfortable proposition of parting with both the organization's reigning minor-league pitcher and hitter of the year highlights a dreary and relevant reality: Acquiring an "ace" pitcher is really, really difficult.

    Image courtesy of Ed Szczepansk, USA Today

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    The Twins had plenty of solid depth in their starting corps this season, with five different starters making 15-plus starts and posting an ERA that was close to or slightly above average.

    What was lacking, however, was a true standout No. 1. Kyle Gibson earned that billing by default, as he led the way in innings and ERA, but his ERA ranked 48th among big-league starters and his K-rate ranked 60th. A match-up between Gibson and someone like David Price, Cole Hamels or Dallas Keuchel in a Game 1 postseason tilt would have been tragically lopsided.

    So as the Twins try to solidify themselves as true contenders this offseason, the search for that top-tier arm to lead the rotation is a primary consideration, and one that we cover extensively in the upcoming Offseason Handbook (now available for preorder!).

    Before we dig into the topic here, let's ask ourselves a question:

    Does An Ace Really Matter That Much?

    It seems inherently obvious. Many teams have ridden their horse to October glory, with last year's Giants and Madison Bumgarner serving as a prime example.

    But having that premier starter at the front of your rotation doesn't come close to guaranteeing anything. This year, we saw the Royals ship out some great young talent to acquire Johnny Cueto from the Reds at the deadline, only to watch the righty post a 5.27 ERA in 16 starts between the regular season and postseason.

    Cueto was pretty much the definition of an ace starter when Kansas City acquired him. He'd been Cincinnati's No. 1 for years, had pitched in big postseason games, and had the second-lowest ERA among all MLB starters since 2011, trailing only the inimitable Clayton Kershaw. Yet, as the Royals learned, and as the Twins have learned on a smaller scale with Ervin Santana and Ricky Nolasco, you don't always know what you're getting.

    Even when a top starter does pitch up to his ability, it's not some magical elixir that assures postseason success. The Twins went to the playoffs four times from 2002 through 2006, and the only time they won a series was when Johan Santana was NOT in the rotation.

    Paying The Price

    In any case, clearly, having a high-end starter fronting the rotation makes a team better, both in the regular season and playoffs. So what would it cost for the Twins to reel in an elite pitching talent?

    The top name on the free agent market is David Price, who could land a record-setting deal coming off a Cy Young caliber season in which he had an enormous impact for the Blue Jays following a deadline trade. It seems safe to assume that the Twins won't go north of $200 million on any contract.

    Next in line are names like Zack Greinke, Cueto and Jordan Zimmermann, but each is likely to ink a nine-figure contract. That's probably too steep. In fact, almost any lucrative long-term deal for a starter is difficult to fathom when the Twins have committed a total of $170 to Santana, Nolasco and Phil Hughes over the past two offseasons.

    Those big commitments to middling veterans are really limiting the Twins' flexibility to make a meaningful plunge into the pitching market. It'd be nice if they could take all those deals back and put that combined sum toward one elite arm, but alas.

    Outside of free agency, the avenue for acquiring a big-name starter would be a trade. As the Berrios/Kepler-for-Gray scenario illustrates, going this route would require a painful exodus of high-caliber young talent. Still, it might be worth it. Gray has established himself at a level Berrios can only hope to reach, and will be controlled at a reasonable price for many years. He's only one example, but he's certainly the type of player that Terry Ryan should be targeting if he's willing to pony up with some of his top prospects.

    Searching Within

    The alternative to all this, of course, is to stand pat and hope that someone emerges from within to provide the Twins with a legitimate No. 1 starter. I see three paths to this outcome that aren't completely unrealistic:

    1) Ervin Santana pitches like he did in September for most the season.

    When the Twins signed Santana to a franchise-record free agent deal last winter, they were hoping he could become that No. 1 guy for them. He certainly looked the part at times. In his first four starts and last seven starts, he combined to go 7-1 with a 1.97 ERA and 1.00 WHIP. That's ace type stuff, for sure. Of course, the problem was that in between those stretches he endured a miserable slump. That's always been the story for Santana: flashes of brilliance amidst consistent inconsistency. There's a reason he has only twice posted an ERA+ higher than 111. It's tough to believe he'll pull it together for a full year, especially as he ages into his mid-30s and surpasses 2,000 innings in career workload.

    2) Phil Hughes reverts to 2014 form.

    It gets overlooked a bit since the Twins lost 92 games, but Hughes really was an ace-caliber starter in his first season with Minnesota. He set an MLB record for K/BB ratio, his 2.65 FIP was sixth-best in baseball, and he was "quality" in 20 of his 32 starts. This year, Hughes' HR-rate spiked while his strikeouts plummeted, but decreased fastball velocity (attributable to back problems?) appeared to be the main culprit. He did maintain his elite control, proving that 2014 was no fluke in that regard, so if he can regain the zip on his heater and start missing more bats he has a chance to get back to that level. Hughes doesn't turn 30 until next June.

    3) Jose Berrios fulfills his promise.

    Since he lacks the prototypical frame of a front-end workhorse starter, Berrios' ability to develop into the pitcher that his spectacular minor-league numbers foretell has always been in question. Yet, the kid just continues to dominate older and more experienced competition at every stop. And he's the one pitcher in the mix for the Twins who, in terms of pure stuff, can match up to the top dogs on contending clubs.

    Personally, I think the chances of at least one of the three possibilities mentioned above coming to fruition are good enough that I'd forego taking the drastic steps necessary to acquire an established No. 1 starter externally.

    How about you?

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    Arms are probably shorter too......do either of you have evidence that the scouts who believe this are wrong?Remember, it is a rule, not a law. There will be exceptions to rules.

    And when the exceptions get too numerous, it's time to question the rule.

    Even Ryan mentioned Berrios' size as one reason he wasn't up this year......probably more about stamina than effectiveness, but still.....

    I would guess it was more about service time than height. If Berrios pitched exactly the same and was seven feet tall, he still wouldn't have been up.

     

    Arms are probably shorter too......do either of you have evidence that the scouts who believe this are wrong?

    Remember, it is a rule, not a law. There will be exceptions to rules.

    Why isn't reach ever measured, like for boxers? Or is it measured?

    Edited by Willihammer

    http://sabr.org/research/does-pitcher-s-height-matter

     

    Not claiming that this is the end-all of the argument, but what research has been done regarding pitchers' height and effectiveness/durability is thoroughly inconclusive.

     

    That is to say, there is no statistical evidence that taller pitchers are generally better pitchers.

    do you have that list, of the height of all the good pitchers, and think the data shows it isn't true?

    No, Im too lazy.

     

    But off the top of my head, just in RH HOFers in my lifetime, I can think of Pedro Martinez, Tom Seaver, Catfish Hunter, Greg Maddux, and Bob Gibson all 6'1" or less.

     

    It's just my opinion, but height would be low on my list of things that are important in a pitcher.

    http://sabr.org/research/does-pitcher-s-height-matter

     

    Not claiming that this is the end-all of the argument, but what research has been done regarding pitchers' height and effectiveness/durability is thoroughly inconclusive.

     

    That is to say, there is no statistical evidence that taller pitchers are generally better pitchers.

    Thanks, this is great.

     

    Arms are probably shorter too......do either of you have evidence that the scouts who believe this are wrong?

    Remember, it is a rule, not a law. There will be exceptions to rules.

     

    Surely height could be an advantage and just like most athletes who don't ride horses for a living, the rule of thumb is the bigger the better.

     

    I can't imagine height could ever trump velocity, movement and control though.  I'd have to think that there are plenty of things a shorter pitcher can do to regain the slight disadvantage of losing out on height, like having a longer stride causing a release closer to the plate, having the ability to change arm slots or throwing the ball from an angle that takes longer for the batter to pick up out of the pitchers hand.

    No, Im too lazy.

     

    But off the top of my head, just in RH HOFers in my lifetime, I can think of Pedro Martinez, Tom Seaver, Catfish Hunter, Greg Maddux, and Bob Gibson all 6'1" or less.

     

    It's just my opinion, but height would be low on my list of things that are important in a pitcher.

    Anecdotes really don't do much for me, when we are talking about if a belief is right or wrong. I appreciate you feel otherwise, though.

    What I found interesting about the study was that he studied the effectiveness of those that qualified for the ERA title.....I'd think that excludes a pretty big group of players that didn't, and were not effective (but I have no idea if there were any notable height differences).

     

    He does address the self fulfilling nature of the data, and also the social pressure of smaller players to play other positions (both selection bias and self fulfilling issues).

     

    that was an interesting read, thanks for finding it.

    Is there really a correlation between pitcher height and effectiveness? I ask because it always seems to come up when projecting Berrios.

     

    I get that JO is like four feet tall in heels, but Johan wasn't real tall. And for every Randy Johnson there's a bunch of Mike Pelfreys.

    http://imoviequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/201-Dumb-and-Dumber-quotes.gif

     

    http://imoviequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/202-Dumb-and-Dumber-quotes.gif

     

    http://sabr.org/research/does-pitcher-s-height-matter

     

    Not claiming that this is the end-all of the argument, but what research has been done regarding pitchers' height and effectiveness/durability is thoroughly inconclusive.

     

    That is to say, there is no statistical evidence that taller pitchers are generally better pitchers.

    http://imoviequotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/203-Dumb-and-Dumber-quotes.gif

     

    No, Im too lazy.

    But off the top of my head, just in RH HOFers in my lifetime, I can think of Pedro Martinez, Tom Seaver, Catfish Hunter, Greg Maddux, and Bob Gibson all 6'1" or less.

    It's just my opinion, but height would be low on my list of things that are important in a pitcher.

     

    78 pitchers qualified for the ERA title last year. 56 were 6' 2" or taller. Of the top 10 by ERA+, only 2 (Greinke and Gray) were short. 

     

    My own pet theory is that taller pitchers are more likely to be able to generate the "stuff" (velocity, movement, etc) necessary to be a successful major league starter - the population of "short" players is much bigger than the population of tall players, but tall players make the larger portion of successful pitchers. That's probably why height is used as a proxy when drafting HS-ers and signing Latin American players. It is probably less of an distinguishing factor when drafting college players, as they have already gone through several years of winnowing. And once players reach (or are on the cusp of) the major, height doesn't really matter too much.

    Here's a fun comparison--

     

    Player A--started minor league career at age of 21, 292.1 IP, 3.66 ERA, 1.36 WHIP, 7.3 k/9, 3.2 bb/9, .4 HR/9

     

    Player B--started minor league career at age of 18, 440.2 IP, 2.98 ERA, 1.12 WHIP, 9.5 k/9, 2.5 bb/9, .5 HR/9

     

    Player A is Sonny Gray, player B is Berrios.  Obviously there's no guarantee that JO will be better than, or even as good as Gray, the comparable minor league numbers sure indicate there's a damn good chance.  Accordingly, I wouldn't trade Berrios for Gray straight up, let along adding Kepler in.

     

    Obviously there's no guarantee that JO will be better than, or even as good as Gray, the comparable minor league numbers sure indicate there's a damn good chance.

    I like Berrios, but comparisons of minor league numbers rarely indicate a "damn good chance" of anything.  Too many guys succeed in the minors but struggle in the majors, or post pedestrian numbers in the minors but eventually prove capable of making the adjustments necessary to succeed in MLB.

     

    78 pitchers qualified for the ERA title last year. 56 were 6' 2" or taller. Of the top 10 by ERA+, only 2 (Greinke and Gray) were short. 

     

    56 (72%) were 6'2 or taller.

    22 (28%) were less than 6'2

     

    20% of the top 10 were "short".

     

    Seems like just about the right mix of tall and short finished in the top 10 based on the total population.

     

    I like Berrios, but comparisons of minor league numbers rarely indicate a "damn good chance" of anything.  Too many guys succeed in the minors but struggle in the majors, or post pedestrian numbers in the minors but eventually prove capable of making the adjustments necessary to succeed in MLB.

     

    Which is why I put in the qualifier to start my conclusion.  MiLB stats are useful and informative, and should be used, even if it is with a grain (or two, or three) of salt.  Otherwise we might as well call Kohl Stewart and Alex Meyer our top pitching prospects, given that they look better in warm-ups.

     

    I'm at work, and don't have the time to look it up, but who was the last MiLB pitcher to put up over 400 innings of sub-3 ERA/sub-1.15 WHIP with over 9 k/9 who wasn't at least a decent major leaguer, all while being under 22?

    Make your own ace is the ideal option since their cost is minimal and years are controlled. There's very little evidence of that happening during the TR era other than Johan. Berrios is the next best chance, who has zero MLB experience. I don't think he's going to come up to the MLB and have a 2006 Liriano campaign next season, or even in 2017. So how are the Twins supposed to take this next step to being a 90+ win baseball club next season? Or are we back to building for 2 years from now?

     

    Extra years of rebuilding are the cost of leaving your youth in the minors to marinate to a level past what others might. After 4 yrs of 90+ losses, most teams would have started the rebuild in earnest in Nov of 2014. Are we in rebuild mode? I would like to think so. But does the FO? Either way, the question of whether they should sign a $?00,000,000 ace to a ? Yr contract is a moot point. It ain't ever gonna happen.

     

    Are you arguing that Cueto was somehow instrumental in getting the Royals to the playoffs? He's been more of a negative than a positive since coming over.

     

    The Royals made it to the World Series last year without a real "ace." They'll probably do it this year with Cueto struggling. I don't think bringing them up as an example supports the point you're trying to make. 

    I like this point made by Nick.

     

    I would like the Twins to have an Ace. I think they are downright awesome to have. But I would argue that having one does NOT guarantee you anything in the post season.

     

    To me, the primary benefit to said Ace pitcher is during the regular season, taking his turn in the rotation, giving your team a better than average chance to win the game. That better than average chance can be especially nice if it ends a losing streak, or comes near the end of the season with a big series on the line.

     

    This can be somewhat negated, however, by having a deep rotation.

     

    But in the post season, if everyone needs an Ace to get there, and be there, and win there, then you are pitting your Ace against the other team's Ace, thus negating any benefit or advantage in your favor.

     

    See the part about a deep rotation again.

    I'd like to see Hughes as the closer next season (was lights out in relief with the Yankees) with Perkins, Jepsen, and May as the core.   That would give the Twins a chance to get after Zimmerman (the only worthwhile price/value arm out there)  

     

    I'd also love it if they can move Santana to give the kids a chance.   Sorry cannot trust the guy.  Who can tells us that the good start and finish was due to steroids?  Sell high and good riddance.

     

    Re:  Berrios

     

    . And he's the one pitcher in the mix for the Twins who, in terms of pure stuff, can match up to the top dogs on contending clubs.

     

    Not the only one.  Alex Meyer actually has better stuff and higher ceiling.  One bad season.  I'd love to see Berrios and Meyer make the Twins out of Spring Training.  Add Zimmerman, Gibson and Nolasco/Milone/Duffey, and this rotation can be something.

     

    But the pen is the biggest problem here...

    Extra years of rebuilding are the cost of leaving your youth in the minors to marinate to a level past what others might. After 4 yrs of 90+ losses, most teams would have started the rebuild in earnest in Nov of 2014. Are we in rebuild mode? I would like to think so. But does the FO? Either way, the question of whether they should sign a $?00,000,000 ace to a ? Yr contract is a moot point. It ain't ever gonna happen.

    Agreed on your last point that the Price, Cueto, Zimmerman, pick your poison FA Ace option will never happen. Since the organization has a limited history of making their own ace as well, trading for one may be the best method.

     

    Before I talk about my point, since you feel the Twins are in rebuild mode, do you think they're going to be a playoff team next season? Or win fewer than 83 games?

     

    I may be skeptical but I'm not sure how the Twins can take the next step to being a 90+ win playoff team without taking a risk and acquiring someone better than the other 8 options on hand. It's going to be difficult to replicate the luck and timely hitting we saw last season...




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