Big Shock (Sarcasm): Tanaka to Yankees

[DaveW]

How about the argument that if you dont pay ,you dont play(in the post season)?

 

Unless you are the Pirates, Indians, A's and Rays.... (aka almost half of the playoff teams last year)

[biggentleben]

Unless you are the Pirates, Indians, A's and Rays.... (aka almost half of the playoff teams last year)

 

There were 14 teams with payrolls exceeding $100M on opening day 2013. There were 11 teams that won more than 90 games. Only 5 teams were on both lists. Interestingly, of the top 5 teams in salary, 3 won 90 games. Of the 14 over $100M, 8 were over .500, so nearly half of those teams finished under .500 on the season. Money doesn't buy wins, it never has, and it never will. You win by producing talent from the minor leagues and utilizing that talent either on the field or to acquire additional/different talent to enhance the major league team.

[Willihammer]

So the Twins should dedicate 25% of their payroll to a guy who hasn't pitched an MLB game and whose arm has been abused in NPB?

The consensus seems to be that the NPB is roughly AAAA competition. If that's true, then the numbers Tanaka has put up would make him one of, if not the no. 1, top prospect in baseball. Worth tens of millions to any team and more yet to a team like the Yankees that needs to make especially sure they're selling ALDS tickets in September and not $5 tickets to the Vodka Dave's of the world.

 

And, Tanaka started as many games between Apr 2 and Nov 2 as Trevor May did between Apr 5 and Aug 31 (27). He racked up some big pitch counts but certainly all the rest (and the ~6 fewer starts compared to MLB) is a mitigating factor in whatever wear and tear pitching's done to his arm.

[shimrod]

Nah, the twins would need to pay $200M to simply get even with the endorsements.

[PseudoSABR]

The consensus seems to be that the NPB is roughly AAAA competition. If that's true,.

That kind of thinking sure worked well for the Twins in the recent past...

 

Quick and easy league translations probably aren't worth much when evaluating individual players, and probably only holding up in the aggregate.

[DaveW]

The consensus seems to be that the NPB is roughly AAAA competition. If that's true, then the numbers Tanaka has put up would make him one of, if not the no. 1, top prospect in baseball. Worth tens of millions to any team and more yet to a team like the Yankees that needs to make especially sure they're selling ALDS tickets in September and not $5 tickets to the Vodka Dave's of the world.

 

And, Tanaka started as many games between Apr 2 and Nov 2 as Trevor May did between Apr 5 and Aug 31 (27). He racked up some big pitch counts but certainly all the rest (and the ~6 fewer starts compared to MLB) is a mitigating factor in whatever wear and tear pitching's done to his arm.

 

The problem with #1 prospects is a good chunk of the time they don't live up to expectations. Do you think the rays would have been happy to have been on the hook for $150 mil + for delmon young?

 

Also, I have spent plenty of money on ALDS tickets to see the Yankees destroy my twins I just enjoy being able to get $5 bleacher seats, or $20 tix 3 rows from the field. Also I always buy on stub hub anyways, so it's not like the Yankees are actually getting that money....it's the scalpers and season ticket holders who suffer during a "down year"

[Brock Beauchamp]

The consensus seems to be that the NPB is roughly AAAA competition. If that's true, then the numbers Tanaka has put up would make him one of, if not the no. 1, top prospect in baseball. Worth tens of millions to any team and more yet to a team like the Yankees that needs to make especially sure they're sellinLDS tickets in September and not $5 tickets to the Vodka Dave's of the world.

 

I don't know if that's true at all. From what I've read of NPB, it has a smattering of MLB-quality players, several more AAA/AAAA guys, and a slew of guys who would struggle to round out a AA roster. In short, their talent level is all over the place.

 

And yeah, Tanaka might be the #1 prospect in MLB and he might be worth tens of millions of dollars...

 

Except the Yankees didn't give him tens of millions. They gave him $150 million. That's Ervin Santana and Matt Garza.

 

What would you rather have, Tanaka or Santana/Garza?

 

There is a ton of downside with Tanaka and not much upside when he's paid like Zack Greinke without the experience of Zack Greinke.

[jokin]

There were 14 teams with payrolls exceeding $100M on opening day 2013. There were 11 teams that won more than 90 games. Only 5 teams were on both lists. Interestingly, of the top 5 teams in salary, 3 won 90 games. Of the 14 over $100M, 8 were over .500, so nearly half of those teams finished under .500 on the season.

 

Money doesn't buy wins, it never has, and it never will.

 

 

You win by producing talent from the minor leagues and utilizing that talent either on the field or to acquire additional/different talent to enhance the major league team.

 

Except that was a key ingredient in the rationale the Twins made to City of Minneapolis, Hennepin County, as well as the citizens of Minnesota to get them to agree to the constuction of their playhouse. The added revenue from TF meant no more losing of in-house talent to Free Agency, and the ability to compete with the "Haves" for the missing FA pieces critical to remaining playoff-competitive, year-in, year-out. A winning team seems like a faded, distant memory now.... (and I'm not advocating for matching or beating the contract that the Yankees have offered Tanaka....for most every team except the Yankees and Dodgers, this contract would be insanely risky).

[twinsfan34]

Steinbrenner is quoted...on his father's tenure at the helm of the Yankees and then, just sort of a 'we could do this if we wanted to'...so be thankful we don't type of sentiments.

 

"He didn't have revenue sharing, at least for most of his time," Hank Steinbrenner added. "That's what these people in the sports media don't seem to get. If it wasn't for revenue sharing, we'd have a payroll of $300 million a year if we wanted to. So we're doing this despite having to pay all that revenue sharing."

 

ESPN Link here.

 

When's the next collective bargaining agreement?

 

Their profit for 2012 was $471 million. Not sure that counts TV deal money too. Source: Forbes.

 

The rules have to work with the players union, they want their money, and they're not as concerned about competition levels - as the ones getting big checks can sign with any team they want. Whether or not they understand that in order for the Yankees to make so much money, they need the collective US involved in the sport.

 

Which, I wonder, the ramifications of increasing ticket prices...say 10 years down the road as the 'gap' widens amongst the 'haves' and 'have nots' even as far as disposable income.

 

I haven't gone to as many games as I used to. I do have some more money now as a 'professional', but I prefer to watch most MLB games on TV and pay $15-$20 and sit on the 3rd base dugout for Rough Riders (Rangers AA affiliate) games.

 

If tickets were that for the Rangers, I'd probably go to 15-30 games a year. They do just fine without me though.

 

The Yankees, like 'em or not, are still abiding by all the rules. Maybe the rules need to be changed?

[Mike Sixel]

Money does not guarantee wins, but it sure helps fill gaps.....and I think the Yankees showed for two decades money can win, oh, and the sox and tigers and rangers all say hi too.

[Mike Sixel]

Except that was the a key ingredient in the rationale the Twins made to City of Minneapolis, Hennepin County, as well as the citizens of Minnesota to get them to agree to the constuction of their playhouse. The added revenue from TF meant no more losing of in-house talent to Free Agency, and the ability to compete with the "Haves" for the missing FA pieces critical to remaining playoff-competitive, year-in, year-out. A winning team seems like a faded, distant memory now.... (and I'm not advocating for matching or beating the contract that the Yankees have offered Tanaka....for most every team except the Yankees and Dodgers, this contract would be insanely risky).

 

good point. If money does not matter, why did the twins beg for a new stadium?

[johnnydakota]

The Rays say hello. As do the A's. I do not think it is a real stretch to say the Cardinals would like to remind you they don't need the overpaying of players to get a ring. It is all about well managing your avenues of resources so as to not have to do the extreme.

 

So when will we hire Tony to run our resources?

[johnnydakota]

Unless you are the Pirates, Indians, A's and Rays.... (aka almost half of the playoff teams last year)

 

Pirates? rebuilding for 20 years....Indians rebuilding for 10+ years and last year went out and spent money,As well they have this guy named Bean he kind of has this wierd idea about using stats and things like that , also they ponied up Cespedes , and the Rays what can 1 say about the Rays....they have a much better manager then ours , they have better scouting department then ours and of course they have a General manager with a pair of balls....

[Kwak]

The other owners want revenue sharing more than winning. The price of one year of Ricky Nolasco can buy a couple of minutes of advertising during the Super Bowl, a replica trophy of the World Series, pay an appearance fee to the Commissioner of MLB to hand the owner said trophy proclaiming him the best owner in MLB!--and probably money left over! Change the system to put in a salary cap--not happening!

[DaveW]

Money does not guarantee wins, but it sure helps fill gaps.....and I think the Yankees showed for two decades money can win, oh, and the sox and tigers and rangers all say hi too.

How many titles have the Rangers and Tigers had the past two decades?

 

I love how the Twins make the playoffs 6 times in 9 years....yet many of you folks say "Playoffs mean nothing, its all about the titles" and yet you bring up the Tigers and Rangers (Two teams who haven't won a title anytime recently) as an example as such a much superior org then the Twins.

 

It's hard to take those people seriously at times....

[johnnydakota]

Except that was the a key ingredient in the rationale the Twins made to City of Minneapolis, Hennepin County, as well as the citizens of Minnesota to get them to agree to the constuction of their playhouse. The added revenue from TF meant no more losing of in-house talent to Free Agency, and the ability to compete with the "Haves" for the missing FA pieces critical to remaining playoff-competitive, year-in, year-out. A winning team seems like a faded, distant memory now.... (and I'm not advocating for matching or beating the contract that the Yankees have offered Tanaka....for most every team except the Yankees and Dodgers, this contract would be insanely risky).

 

since 2009 ended we have lost 22 of the 25 players on that 25 man roster.

Only Joe Mauer, Glen Perkins and Duensing remain

[DaveW]

Pirates? rebuilding for 20 years....Indians rebuilding for 10+ years and last year went out and spent money,As well they have this guy named Bean he kind of has this wierd idea about using stats and things like that , also they ponied up Cespedes , and the Rays what can 1 say about the Rays....they have a much better manager then ours , they have better scouting department then ours and of course they have a General manager with a pair of balls....

 

A's ponied up for Cespedes...yet the Twins paid Mauer significantly more money. Beane has exactly as many ALCS and World Series appearances as Ryan has had.

 

The Rays had a nice run no doubt, but have lost in the first round of the playoffs the 3 times. Additionally, I am pretty sure the Twins have the consensus best farm system in baseball...so shouldn't the Twins scouting department reap some of the praise for that? As far as the "GM with a pair of balls" comment, that is not even worth a retort as it is immature and pointless.

[Squirrel]

Moderator note: Some of you need to tone down the rhetoric. Every thread here does not need to break down into the Twins not spending according to how you think they should, nor do we need to question the 'balls' of our GM ... you can find better ways to express and argue your points than with disgruntled nothingness.

[DaveW]

since 2009 ended we have lost 22 of the 25 players on that 25 man roster.

Only Joe Mauer, Glen Perkins and Duensing remain

Yes, let's look at that more closely.

 

Players lost:

Morneau- Injury issues that nobody could predict, honestly, was it worth trying to bring him back this year?

Alexi Casilla- You arguing the Twins should have kept him around?

Cabrera- Not in baseball period. Twins should have kept him around?

Crede- Not in baseball period. Twins should have kept him around?

Delmon- Terrible. Twins should have kept him around?

Gomez-Did absolutely nothing for the Twins. Got Hardy in return (another issue in itself) Late bloomer, yeah the Twins should have kept him around, but hard to argue with them trading him at the time.

Cuddyer- I looooovvved Cuddyer, however 3 years/32 mil was a bit much. Since leaving one very mediocre year one nice year offensively...provides nothing really in defensive value.

Kubel- (Actually back on the roster)

Span- Pretty sure we will all take the Meyer for Span trade at this point and moving forward.

Punto- I miss him, but does anyone else?

Harris- Is he in baseball anymore?

Redmond- Coach now

Tolbert- Out of baseball

Buscher- Out of baseball

Morales- Out of baseball

Blackburn- Out of baseball (more or less)

Liriano- Yeah, this one hurts/sucks.

Baker- Has done zero since leaving the Twins due to injury issues

Slowey- Other than a few decent starts in Miami (then demoted to bullpen) has done nothing.

Pavano- Retired.

Nathan- Stud, no doubt. Hard to justify the Twins giving him 10+ mil a year (esp with Perkins)

Guerrier- Solid, but has regressed since leaving, Twins were smart not to overpay.

Mijares- Didn't like letting him go, but mehhhhhh had a rough year last year.

Keppel- Out of baseball.

Crain- This was a mistake.

 

 

Other than Liriano (To be frank, I wanted him to stay but he didn't do much of anything his last several years here) Nathan (Not a huge loss with Perkins stepping in) and Crain, I can't really see where the Twins have really messed up letting those other players from 09 go.... in fact, I think because of this it gives em a real nice shot to take a real nice run in 2015/2016/2017 etc.

[DaveW]

Steinbrenner is quoted...on his father's tenure at the helm of the Yankees and then, just sort of a 'we could do this if we wanted to'...so be thankful we don't type of sentiments.

 

"He didn't have revenue sharing, at least for most of his time," Hank Steinbrenner added. "That's what these people in the sports media don't seem to get. If it wasn't for revenue sharing, we'd have a payroll of $300 million a year if we wanted to. So we're doing this despite having to pay all that revenue sharing."

 

ESPN Link here.

 

When's the next collective bargaining agreement?

 

Their profit for 2012 was $471 million. Not sure that counts TV deal money too. Source: Forbes.

 

The rules have to work with the players union, they want their money, and they're not as concerned about competition levels - as the ones getting big checks can sign with any team they want. Whether or not they understand that in order for the Yankees to make so much money, they need the collective US involved in the sport.

 

Which, I wonder, the ramifications of increasing ticket prices...say 10 years down the road as the 'gap' widens amongst the 'haves' and 'have nots' even as far as disposable income.

 

I haven't gone to as many games as I used to. I do have some more money now as a 'professional', but I prefer to watch most MLB games on TV and pay $15-$20 and sit on the 3rd base dugout for Rough Riders (Rangers AA affiliate) games.

 

If tickets were that for the Rangers, I'd probably go to 15-30 games a year. They do just fine without me though.

 

The Yankees, like 'em or not, are still abiding by all the rules. Maybe the rules need to be changed?

 

I don't think the Rules need to be changed at all. The Yankees have won one title in the last 13 years, during that time the teams to win multiple ones are the Red Sox, Cardinals and Giants have all won multiple world series, I am not sure anyone would claim they have some huge advantage when it comes to payroll (Red Sox...ok...maybe, but for the most part those teams were built from within and shrewdly)

 

In fact, as much as I hate the Cards, they are a premier example on how to build a team: Build GREAT in house talent, continue to replenish the farm, and make some smart plays on the FA market (and realize when its time to let people go- Like Pujols, Beltran etc)

[BigTrane]

FWIW, I'm not a 'spend it just to spend' type. While the rotation is improved, is anyone 100% happy with where the rotation stands now? Is this rotation going to get us what we want; if not, what do we still need to do? Wait for Meyer to come up?

 

Tanaka totally distorted & blocked up an already thin market- but we'll now see how much real interest the Twins still have in Arroyo, Garza, etc now. That will be the interesting ripple effect here.

 

As for the Cards, I too take them as a model org- heck, they invented the farm system and all you have to do is look at how many rookies stepped up last year. Enviable. Still, they do open up the checkbook when they see a need (Peralta, Bourjous) and close it when they don't- NOT bringing Beltran back may have been their best move/non-move this OS. Smart club.

 

Let the Yanquis speng/gamble big- it's what they do. Tanaka is a big risk, but who sees Nolasco as a #1 starter? If there are better pitching options out there, then I want the Twins in the room, in that conversation, period. Our rotation woes will not fix themselves.

[johnnydakota]

How many titles have the Rangers and Tigers had the past two decades?

 

I love how the Twins make the playoffs 6 times in 9 years....yet many of you folks say "Playoffs mean nothing, its all about the titles" and yet you bring up the Tigers and Rangers (Two teams who haven't won a title anytime recently) as an example as such a much superior org then the Twins.

 

It's hard to take those people seriously at times....

 

But those teams didnt go 1 and done the last 6 times they made the playoffs ....did they?

[johnnydakota]

A's ponied up for Cespedes...yet the Twins paid Mauer significantly more money. Beane has exactly as many ALCS and World Series appearances as Ryan has had.

 

The Rays had a nice run no doubt, but have lost in the first round of the playoffs the 3 times. Additionally, I am pretty sure the Twins have the consensus best farm system in baseball...so shouldn't the Twins scouting department reap some of the praise for that? As far as the "GM with a pair of balls" comment, that is not even worth a retort as it is immature and pointless.

 

well you are wrong about the best farm system , I believe we are ranked 5th and 7th by the 2 most ackowleged periodicals

[johnnydakota]

Yes, let's look at that more closely.

 

Players lost:

Morneau- Injury issues that nobody could predict, honestly, was it worth trying to bring him back this year?

Alexi Casilla- You arguing the Twins should have kept him around?

Cabrera- Not in baseball period. Twins should have kept him around?

Crede- Not in baseball period. Twins should have kept him around?

Delmon- Terrible. Twins should have kept him around?

Gomez-Did absolutely nothing for the Twins. Got Hardy in return (another issue in itself) Late bloomer, yeah the Twins should have kept him around, but hard to argue with them trading him at the time.

Cuddyer- I looooovvved Cuddyer, however 3 years/32 mil was a bit much. Since leaving one very mediocre year one nice year offensively...provides nothing really in defensive value.

Kubel- (Actually back on the roster)

Span- Pretty sure we will all take the Meyer for Span trade at this point and moving forward.

Punto- I miss him, but does anyone else?

Harris- Is he in baseball anymore?

Redmond- Coach now

Tolbert- Out of baseball

Buscher- Out of baseball

Morales- Out of baseball

Blackburn- Out of baseball (more or less)

Liriano- Yeah, this one hurts/sucks.

Baker- Has done zero since leaving the Twins due to injury issues

Slowey- Other than a few decent starts in Miami (then demoted to bullpen) has done nothing.

Pavano- Retired.

Nathan- Stud, no doubt. Hard to justify the Twins giving him 10+ mil a year (esp with Perkins)

Guerrier- Solid, but has regressed since leaving, Twins were smart not to overpay.

Mijares- Didn't like letting him go, but mehhhhhh had a rough year last year.

Keppel- Out of baseball.

Crain- This was a mistake.

 

 

Other than Liriano (To be frank, I wanted him to stay but he didn't do much of anything his last several years here) Nathan (Not a huge loss with Perkins stepping in) and Crain, I can't really see where the Twins have really messed up letting those other players from 09 go.... in fact, I think because of this it gives em a real nice shot to take a real nice run in 2015/2016/2017 etc.

 

the premise of that statment is that we built a stadium so we could keep our own players and sign quality free agents, I just pointed out that we have done niether......

[Willihammer]

I don't know if that's true at all. From what I've read of NPB, it has a smattering of MLB-quality players, several more AAA/AAAA guys, and a slew of guys who would struggle to round out a AA roster. In short, their talent level is all over the place.

 

And yeah, Tanaka might be the #1 prospect in MLB and he might be worth tens of millions of dollars...

 

Except the Yankees didn't give him tens of millions. They gave him $150 million. That's Ervin Santana and Matt Garza.

 

What would you rather have, Tanaka or Santana/Garza?

 

There is a ton of downside with Tanaka and not much upside when he's paid like Zack Greinke without the experience of Zack Greinke.

 

Santana and Garza are still FAs. I don't know what they will wind up signing for but I suspect this board will be in sticker shock over that too, as it is whenever anyone signs anywhere.

 

Second, the Yankees are saving a spot for Pineda so they have only 1 open for a major FA - Sabathia, Nova, Kuroda, Pineda. So the question you should ask is, would you rather have Tanaka, Garza, or Santana. Bear in mind the Yankees were an 87 win team last year.

[johnnydakota]

I don't think the Rules need to be changed at all. The Yankees have won one title in the last 13 years, during that time the teams to win multiple ones are the Red Sox, Cardinals and Giants have all won multiple world series, I am not sure anyone would claim they have some huge advantage when it comes to payroll (Red Sox...ok...maybe, but for the most part those teams were built from within and shrewdly)

 

In fact, as much as I hate the Cards, they are a premier example on how to build a team: Build GREAT in house talent, continue to replenish the farm, and make some smart plays on the FA market (and realize when its time to let people go- Like Pujols, Beltran etc)

 

So if I glean correctly from your statment is that over the last 13 years ,the Red Sox, Giants and the Cards management have done a much better job then ours has? hmmm interesting

Maybe we should add some of those teams personal to our brain thrust, maybe even a guy from the Rays?

[DaveW]

the premise of that statment is that we built a stadium so we could keep our own players and sign quality free agents, I just pointed out that we have done niether......

 

What was that Joe Mauer contract then? Also I think Nolasco and Hughes quantify as quality free agents, ditto with Willingham as well. Additionally....the off-season isn't even close to over yet!!!

[DaveW]

So if I glean correctly from your statment is that over the last 13 years ,the Red Sox, Giants and the Cards management have done a much better job then ours has? hmmm interesting

Maybe we should add some of those teams personal to our brain thrust, maybe even a guy from the Rays?

 

This isn't college football, you can't just go out and poach the other teams top guys. In 2-3 years when Meyer, Sano, Buxton, Arcia, Rosario, Gibson etc are all leading this team to glory, perhaps people will be saying this same thing about the Twins brain trust. Hell, they already were saying it about the Twins when they won the division 6 times in 9 years (no small feat for ANY team)

[biggentleben]

Money does not guarantee wins, but it sure helps fill gaps.....and I think the Yankees showed for two decades money can win, oh, and the sox and tigers and rangers all say hi too.

 

Yet none of them won with major free agent signings. The Yankees teams that were so successful were built through their minor league system and the willingness to take on contracts in trades. When they turned to free agency, their team success went down. The Rangers built from within and continue to have a very highly ranked farm system that fills roster holes. Heck, one of the biggest propulsion moves for the Rangers to succeed was a trade where they acquired prospects and traded away an established star before he hit free agency. The Tigers built their rotation through trades (even Sanchez was traded for and then kept through free agency), and they've traded away the biggest free agent splash they made. The Red Sox just a season and a half ago traded away a collection of free agent signings and then utilized trades and small signings to win this year. The perception that these teams with high payrolls did such by signing the best free agents every year is simply incorrect. Often the top dollar free agent goes to a team like the Mariners or White Sox or Angels trying to make a jump, and interestingly, none of them have made that leap to championship caliber despite their spending.

 

I'll repeat that money has never bought wins, and it never will. The scouting department for the minor league system and major league scouting for trades are the most important ways that winners have been built.

[Twins Twerp]

well you are wrong about the best farm system , I believe we are ranked 5th and 7th by the 2 most ackowleged periodicals

 

Baseball Prospectus does not rank. If they did, the Twins would be 1, and then a long fall to number 2. BA has not released their official list, but will undoubedly have the Twins in the top 3 (and probably #1). The team is loaded and unless your "periodicals" are the Houston Chronicle or the Chicago Tribune